Questions about SD.net

[IceHawk-151]

A few questions HDS.

1) What is the exct power output for an ISD reactor?
2) How much power is required to run the Impulse engines?
3) How much power is required to run the Hyperdrive?
4) How much power is required to operate Life SUpport?
5) How much power is required to sustain artificial gravity?
6) How much power is required to run the computer systems on the ISD 24 hrs a day?
7) How much power is required to heat the vessel at all times?
How much power is required to operate the Comm systems?
9) How much power is required to operate the sensor array?
10) How much power is required to run the Particle shields at all hours of the day?
11) How much power is required to operate the tractor beams?
12) How much power would then be left over to operate the Ray Shields and the Weapons in a combat situation?

I agree that the ISD puts out a tremendouse amount of power, but unless you know the exact amount of power it does put out and exactly what percentage of the power is required to run all of the other systems, knowing the power required for acceleration is not too useful.

[Master of Ossus]

A few questions HDS.

1) What is the exct power output for an ISD reactor?
2) How much power is required to run the Impulse engines?
3) How much power is required to run the Hyperdrive?
4) How much power is required to operate Life SUpport?
5) How much power is required to sustain artificial gravity?
6) How much power is required to run the computer systems on the ISD 24 hrs a day?
7) How much power is required to heat the vessel at all times?
How much power is required to operate the Comm systems?
9) How much power is required to operate the sensor array?
10) How much power is required to run the Particle shields at all hours of the day?
11) How much power is required to operate the tractor beams?
12) How much power would then be left over to operate the Ray Shields and the Weapons in a combat situation?

I agree that the ISD puts out a tremendouse amount of power, but unless you know the exact amount of power it does put out and exactly what percentage of the power is required to run all of the other systems, knowing the power required for acceleration is not too useful.

Of those systems, only the combat (shields, weapons, engines, perhaps the tractor beams) would be significant to a ship the size of an ISD. We assume that at least some of the power required for the ISD can be redirected to its weapon systems. Why do we do this? Frankly, because it makes sense. We know that an ISD is primarily a warship, and that it is a warship designed to engage in capital-ship engagements from the movies (and to participate in fleet bombardments). It would thus make little sense if FAR more energy from the ship's reactor was needed to power its engines than to power the ship's shields.

You are basically using the creationist tactic of demanding overwhelming and completely incontrovertible evidence to debunk your claims, even though you have provided no evidence yourself. You have no reason to dismiss BDZ information from the EU. You have no reason to dismiss the ICS (other than that you personally disagree with it, which is an irrelevent reason), and you dismiss all evidence that disagrees with your cause unless everything involved is completely and totally spelled out for you.

Let's see the evidence that HDS and I have presented you with, and how you have dismissed it, just for review.

1. You ignored my demands that you calculate the volume of a blaster, scale it up to a DS blast, and then back down to the ISD in order to see by how much the volume of a weapon needed to be in order to double the power (which, astonishingly enough, comes out to be within an order of magnitude of the ICS figures). You ignored it because you claimed the mechanisms of the two weapons were completely different, which is totally irrelevent because we are measuring the capacity of the two weapons to deliver energy, TL's have been stated by EU sources (which you have done nothing to refute) to use the same technology as the DS SL, AND the fact that we saw very similar, but miniaturized SL's in operation in AotC on the LAAT's used by the Republic (indicating a large degree of scalability for such weapons).

2. You ignored my demands that you scale the volume of the power-pack on Han's blaster pistol with the Power Regulator the Wedge destroyed, and then back down to an ISD's turbolasers (which is assumed to have a similar system for charging the weapon). You ignored this demand for no reason. Just FYI, it comes out several orders of magnitude ABOVE the ICS statements for firepower. You ignored this for no real reason, other than that the turbolasers (according to you) take a direct-feed, whereas both of these weapons used stored energy, even though it should have struck you as being irrelevent.

3. You ignored demonstrated BDZ's for no apparent reason, but showed that in Darksaber we have an ambiguous situation involving forest-fires IMMEDIATELY visible from orbit (ie. no time to generate smoke, first, to make them more visible), and was NOT a BDZ, and then you assumed that this single incident (ambiguous as it is) somehow refuted the numerous other mentions of a BDZ that other people have shown. Note that you are assuming that dialogue from a single incident also has the ability to completely refute several incidents of the BDZ that are NECESSARY for the STORY of the Star Wars EU to take place (ie. The BDZ's of Caamas and the attempted BDZ of Bothawui).

4. You ignored HDS's correct statements that measured the amount of energy involved in accelerating an ISD, and then assuming that a fraction of that can be redirected to the weapons. You ignored the absurdity of dismissing this notion by claiming that we must also know the exact amount of energy used by all of the various ship's systems, even though we also know that the ISD can redirect power from its engines to the shields and weapons, and that the Executor "intensified the forward pathways," and later was ordered to "intensify forward firepower." Obviously this energy needed to come from somewhere, but you again ignored this in assuming that it could have come from other sources without explaining where it came from yourself.

5. Most gallingly, you claim that Doctor Saxton must justify his figures in order for you to accept them, ignoring the fact that all of the calculations that HDS and I asked you to do are not only similar to the ones that Doctor Saxton proposed, but are also completely consistent with his results. This is, frankly, laughable. If all calculations demonstrate the same thing, unless they can be refuted reasonably, then there is no reason to assume that other statements of the same information are incorrect. Your demands that Doctor Saxton justify his calculations for you are analogous in all ways to an attempt to refute a statement that the 49ers lost last week by a score of 31-6 by stating that I had not stated HOW the Bucs had scored 31 points.

[Slartibartfast]

I refuse to admit that the ISD is the all-powerful vessel everyone thinks it is, unless you can provide hard stats for the following:

1) Exactly how many food vending machines are in the ship
2) What's the exact air pressure generated in ventilation systems
3) How many uniforms has the captain in his closet
4) Name and designation of every single stormtrooper that tried to scratch their ass thru their armor and failed
5) How many fingers am I holding up
6) How many sound speakers are in the bridge of an ISD, and if they have a sub-woofer.
7) The area in square meters of the ISD's cafeteria
8 ) Mean Time Between Failures of the refrigerator
9) How many people have to see/hear the tree fall in the forest for it to actually have fallen.

[Master of Ossus]

Icehawk, I thought of something else that you didn't understant (not that it truly matters, since you are clearly mistaken), and I wanted to show you something that Wayne Poe came up with.

First of all, power can be redirected from systems on the ISD to different systems. This is shown in multiple EU sources (when various commanders order that power be redirected from the engines to the shields, or the shields to the weapons). Thus, none of the systems "require" any power, with the possible exception of life support. You are also ludicrously under-informed about how much energy is required to heat an ISD. The simple answer is: none. The ISD will not only gain heat from the various systems running inside it (which naturally require heat), but it will also lose very little due to the small radiative powers of the ship. If anything, cooling the ship is a more difficult problem for the ship to address.

Now, more importantly, Wayne Poe has put up an excellent page on the Darksaber quote that you based your ENTIRE argument on. It conclusively shows that you have been deliberately misrepresenting the book (which I admit I mistakenly took you at your word for). You can find his site here: http://h4h.com/louis/pdd1/dsaber.html#ds2

[IceHawk-151]

1) The blaster argument.
"You ignored my demands that you calculate the volume of a blaster, scale it up to a DS blast, and then back down to the ISD" - MoO

Well first, scalling up to the Death Star Blast is absurd. The two weapons don't even act the same way.

1) The two energy discharges are different colors, indicating something is definitely different between the two weapons.
2) The DS fires a contious beam created from the combination of eight other beams, the blaster fires a single bolt.
3) The DS uses amplification lenses to direct the beam, the Blaster uses an "emitter nozzel".
4) The DS beam has energy pulses travelling though it, the blaster bolt does not seem to have these.

Also the Death Star "barrel" structure is vastly different than the Blaster's. The DS seems to have 8 individual barrels that each direct an inferior blast. One could assume that these barrels are 1/8 the power of the original beam, but that depends on how the beams combine to create the Super Laser. The blaster has a single barrel that carries the full power shot to the emiter.

Besides why do we have to scale up to the DS blast? We have numerous instances of Han's blsater hitting walls, armor, stormtroopers, and people. We also have the BTM range for fire power to check against. (5 kj - 50 kj)
A better idea would be to attempt to scale up from the power of the blaster to the power of Fighter Laser Cannons and TurboLaser cannons. The laser cannons and the Turbolasers seem to have much more in common with the Blaster than they do with the DS Superlaser.

2) Problems with synonyms (and maybe spelling )
"You ignored my demands that you scale the volume of the power-pack on Han's blaster pistol with the Power Regulator the Wedge destroyed, and then back down to an ISD's turbolasers " - MoO

I didn't ignore your demand. I thought about it, and then looked up the word Regulator to be sure.
A Power Regulator, by name, would appear to be an appartus that controls the flow of power from or to the reactor core. An Energy Pack on the other hand stores energy. I fail to see how these two things are the same. Han's Blaster must have a power regulator that controlls the flow OUT of the power pack, but it is much smaller than the power pack itself, and works on an unknown premise.

[Master of Ossus]

1) The blaster argument.
"You ignored my demands that you calculate the volume of a blaster, scale it up to a DS blast, and then back down to the ISD" - MoO

Well first, scalling up to the Death Star Blast is absurd. The two weapons don't even act the same way.

1) The two energy discharges are different colors, indicating something is definitely different between the two weapons.
2) The DS fires a contious beam created from the combination of eight other beams, the blaster fires a single bolt.
3) The DS uses amplification lenses to direct the beam, the Blaster uses an "emitter nozzel".
4) The DS beam has energy pulses travelling though it, the blaster bolt does not seem to have these.

Also the Death Star "barrel" structure is vastly different than the Blaster's. The DS seems to have 8 individual barrels that each direct an inferior blast. One could assume that these barrels are 1/8 the power of the original beam, but that depends on how the beams combine to create the Super Laser. The blaster has a single barrel that carries the full power shot to the emiter.

Both measure the ability of SW to deliver energy to a specific target. The mechanism is irrelevent. Besides this, TL's have fired continuous beams (ref. Rebel Dream). They operate on the same principle as the DS superlaser (ref. EG:WT). Scale the weapons.

Besides why do we have to scale up to the DS blast? We have numerous instances of Han's blsater hitting walls, armor, stormtroopers, and people. We also have the BTM range for fire power to check against. (5 kj - 50 kj)
A better idea would be to attempt to scale up from the power of the blaster to the power of Fighter Laser Cannons and TurboLaser cannons. The laser cannons and the Turbolasers seem to have much more in common with the Blaster than they do with the DS Superlaser.

Because we KNOW how much energy the DS had to impart in order to destroy Alderaan in the manner that it did. With other targets, we have lower limit estimates. Besides that, the DS is the best indicator because it is the largest weapon ever seen, meaning that margins of error will become smaller in relation to the yield of the weapon. Again, put up or shut up.

2) Problems with synonyms (and maybe spelling )
"You ignored my demands that you scale the volume of the power-pack on Han's blaster pistol with the Power Regulator the Wedge destroyed, and then back down to an ISD's turbolasers " - MoO

I didn't ignore your demand. I thought about it, and then looked up the word Regulator to be sure.
A Power Regulator, by name, would appear to be an appartus that controls the flow of power from or to the reactor core. An Energy Pack on the other hand stores energy. I fail to see how these two things are the same. Han's Blaster must have a power regulator that controlls the flow OUT of the power pack, but it is much smaller than the power pack itself, and works on an unknown premise.

So what? The power regulator must operate by storing energy from periods in which the Reactor is operating efficiently, and then releasing that energy when it is not operating as well. This is designed to help correct the occasional surges in power, and dropoffs in power. In other words, the Power Regulator and the blaster magazine operate by storing power and then releasing it at a later time. The fact that you were too stupid to understand that the two systems achieve the same effect has no bearing on the validity of the argument. The time for excuses is over. Do the math.

3. You ignored demonstrated BDZ's for no apparent reason, but showed that in Darksaber we have an ambiguous situation involving forest-fires IMMEDIATELY visible from orbit (ie. no time to generate smoke, first, to make them more visible), and was NOT a BDZ, and then you assumed that this single incident (ambiguous as it is) somehow refuted the numerous other mentions of a BDZ that other people have shown. Note that you are assuming that dialogue from a single incident also has the ability to completely refute several incidents of the BDZ that are NECESSARY for the STORY of the Star Wars EU to take place (ie. The BDZ's of Caamas and the attempted BDZ of Bothawui).

4. You ignored HDS's correct statements that measured the amount of energy involved in accelerating an ISD, and then assuming that a fraction of that can be redirected to the weapons. You ignored the absurdity of dismissing this notion by claiming that we must also know the exact amount of energy used by all of the various ship's systems, even though we also know that the ISD can redirect power from its engines to the shields and weapons, and that the Executor "intensified the forward pathways," and later was ordered to "intensify forward firepower." Obviously this energy needed to come from somewhere, but you again ignored this in assuming that it could have come from other sources without explaining where it came from yourself.

5. Most gallingly, you claim that Doctor Saxton must justify his figures in order for you to accept them, ignoring the fact that all of the calculations that HDS and I asked you to do are not only similar to the ones that Doctor Saxton proposed, but are also completely consistent with his results. This is, frankly, laughable. If all calculations demonstrate the same thing, unless they can be refuted reasonably, then there is no reason to assume that other statements of the same information are incorrect. Your demands that Doctor Saxton justify his calculations for you are analogous in all ways to an attempt to refute a statement that the 49ers lost last week by a score of 31-6 by stating that I had not stated HOW the Bucs had scored 31 points.

Edit: Fixed parenthetical.

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, Icehawk, you downright lied about what Darksaber showed us. I have little reason to believe your excuses for why you haven't bothered to perform the simple calculation I asked you to do repeatedly.

[Ender]

You are right Ender there is a simple answer to the Darksaber quote, however it isn't yours. When the Knight Hammer was firing on the planet there were no Capital ships in the area to oppose it, nor were there any ground emplacements that could fire on it. Thus the SSD didn't need to have it's shields up. What we have is an SSD firing maximum power settings on a planet that cannot retailiate against it nor defend itself. To me that sounds like the definition of a DBZ.

Wow, you did fuck all to counter me there. You claim I'm wrong but don't bother to explain why.

Concession Accepted Fucker. Now get the hell out of here.

[IceHawk-151]

First, how did I lie about Darksaber? I quoted directly from the book and then told you the conclusions I came up with after reading them. Stated my opinion, sure, lied, no.

How is it that you can say the mechanism is irrelevant? It is the mechanism itself that is in question. To accurately scale up from one weapon to another they have to be working on the same principals. They must both deliver energy in the same way and direct it in the same way. If the mechanisms deliver energy differently from each other that would imply that a differing level of engineering between the two weapons exists. We can clearly see that Death Star laser works on an entirely different level than Han’s blaster. The basic technology between the two weapons is the same. A power source supplies energy, which is siphoned off and then directed at a target. In that respect both of the weapons are identical. However that is where the similarities stop. The colors of the two beams are different; meaning a different type of tibanna gas is used to define each shot. The Death Star Superlaser has energy pulses running through the beam at regular intervals, whereas the Blaster Bolts appear to lack this quality.
Simply because the two weapons operate on the same basic principal is not enough to declare they are the exact same technology, one simply a larger version. The two mechanisms work differently to achieve the same goal of delivering energy. They are different technologies based around the same general idea, nothing more and nothing less.

The Death Star is the largest weapon ever seen, and therefore would give the highest end estimates for weapons yields if you based everything off of it. It is the extreme edge of firepower in Star Wars, scaling everything against it is simply an exercise in the search for high-end numbers.

Power Regulators do no store energy; they have energy flow through them. They act like the valve on the gas main I have in the backyard. It opens and closes to allow energy flow through it. The regulator’s function was apparently to control the amount of energy flowing out of the reactor. To do this power does have to move through it, but how? If the rest of the technology of Star Wars is any indication one could expect to find coils and tubes running throughout the interior of the regulator meant to monitor the amount of energy flowing through it and to make sure the amount does not exceed the limits of the regulator. The entire interior of the Regulator is not wholly dedicated to holding energy.

The Blaster has a mechanism that is synonymous to the Death Star power Regulator. The regulator in the Blaster is activated when the trigger is pulled. When a user pulls the trigger of the blaster the power regulator inside allows a predetermined amount of energy to flow from the blaster, through the regulator, and into the firing mechanism. The regulator closes when the proper amount of energy has left, restricting the flow of any more energy.

So simply there is absolutely no reason to scale up from the Power pack on the Blaster to the Power Regulator of the Death Star.

Power Pack: Stores energy for a certain amount of time
Power Regulator: Controls the flow of energy from a power source, which is dependant on the rate of transfer and the period of time the Regulator is allowing flow.
Power Generator: Generates energy through reactions in it’s core and then transfers that energy to storage cells or weapons through the use of regulator.

(Here's a picture of an Imperial Blaster Being fired, not sure of it's origin.
http://www.artoosnews.com/artooscustoms ... _rifle.jpg

[Lord Pounder]

I may be wrong but i believe that Daala had orded full power to the shields just incase the Jedi had tricks up their sleaves. Also the SSD was deploying fighters at very regular intervals, The hangar bay doors anf tractor beams to do this take up power. Second the SSD was underattack from the Falcon. Even a ship the Falcon is a threat to an unshielded ship. Daala was kinda dumb but she'd have read what Solo did to the Iron Fist. There for the conditions can not have been perfect.

[IceHawk-151]

When the orbital barrage first began Daala ordered all fighter pilots to stand down, and she left the Knight Hammer pretty much helpless. Yavin 4 was unable to ge out a message to anyone due to a communications jamming array, so Daala was not expecting company. For the first few minutes of her barrage she had full power going to all Turbolaser Batteries as she blasted the planet.

[Lord Pounder]

Yeah FIRST FEW MINUTES. A BDZ takes a few hours. Also Daala wasn't callus enough to destroy a planet full of her own fleets Heavy Armor Army. She can't have been attempting BDZ as even though it's proven she is a silly bitch she isn't dumb enough to kill her own forces.

[Ender]

First, how did I lie about Darksaber? I quoted directly from the book and then told you the conclusions I came up with after reading them. Stated my opinion, sure, lied, no.

You said it said "blasted apart trees and bushes" when all it says is that there were fires visable from orbit.

Let me make this easy for you since you obviously don't speak english: When you say something that is false, it is called a lie. So yes, you lied.

[Ender]

And since you refuse to counter my argument, why the fuck are you still here?

[Illuminatus Primus]

He meanders in and out and always has only one point which is supposed to contradict everything else with regards to calcs and then we're supposed to see the superior wisdom in his purposely pandering "middle ground" calcs.

[Master of Ossus]

First, how did I lie about Darksaber? I quoted directly from the book and then told you the conclusions I came up with after reading them. Stated my opinion, sure, lied, no.

One of the few pieces of Minbari wisdom that I like is that "A lie by omission is the worst kind of lie." Let's see what you did. You said that Daala ordered all TURBOLASERS to fire on Yavin IV, and tried to pass it off as an attempt at a BDZ. You also said that she ordered them to fire at full power. She ACTUALLY ordered all Turbolaser BATTERIES to fire. This is an outright lie, because the two are not the same thing--with turbolaser batteries making up only a small portion of the total turbolasers on a starship. Far more importantly, you deleted the next sentence of her order. They were to fire at will, ON STRUCTURES on Yavin. You misrepresented this to claim that all turbolaser batteries were firing, and neglected to mention that she ordered them to fire on structures instead of just the surface of the world. You perpetuated this lie by claiming repeatedly that she had written off her ground troops, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE NO WHERE NEAR THE STRUCTURES SHE ORDERED ATTACKED. This is obviously a lie, and a misrepresentation of official evidence. Luckily for everyone, Wayne Poe alerted me to your treachery.

How is it that you can say the mechanism is irrelevant? It is the mechanism itself that is in question. To accurately scale up from one weapon to another they have to be working on the same principals. They must both deliver energy in the same way and direct it in the same way. If the mechanisms deliver energy differently from each other that would imply that a differing level of engineering between the two weapons exists. We can clearly see that Death Star laser works on an entirely different level than Han’s blaster. The basic technology between the two weapons is the same.

Thus, the technology is the same and the delivery mechanism is the same, because a turbolaser is just a way of delivering energy to a target. Concession accepted.

A power source supplies energy, which is siphoned off and then directed at a target. In that respect both of the weapons are identical. However that is where the similarities stop. The colors of the two beams are different; meaning a different type of tibanna gas is used to define each shot.

Oh really? Who cares. It's still tibanna gas. You have to prove that the two different tibanna gases use different mechanisms, something that the official evidence EXPLICITLY denies.

The Death Star Superlaser has energy pulses running through the beam at regular intervals, whereas the Blaster Bolts appear to lack this quality.

Demonstrate that this requires a different MECHANISM, as opposed to creating a different effect (which is obviously just a matter of scale).

Simply because the two weapons operate on the same basic principal is not enough to declare they are the exact same technology, one simply a larger version. The two mechanisms work differently to achieve the same goal of delivering energy.

Bullshit. The technology is the same, therefore the mechanism is the same. A turbolaser is a METHOD OF DELIVERING ENERGY. Both the DS and Han's blaster pistol operate on the same technology principle. Besides this, the burden of proof is on YOU to demonstrate that the two mechanisms are different, as well as just the scale. Since you cannot do this, DO THE FUCKING CALCULATIONS.

They are different technologies based around the same general idea, nothing more and nothing less.

HAHAHAHA. Prove it. PROVE that the DS blast is orders of magnitude more powerful than a turbolaser that has been scaled up to that size. Your points are bullshit. Not only do you refuse to scale the weapons in ANY way that makes any kind of sense, but you ALSO responded to less than HALF of the points that HDS and I have made. Go back and respond to points 3-5. If you lose ONE of those points, you lose the debate, because like the moronic debater you are, you charged in here and isolated yourself so that you cannot escape and have no fall-back.

(Here's a picture of an Imperial Blaster Being fired, not sure of it's origin.
http://www.artoosnews.com/artooscustoms ... _rifle.jpg

OMFG. This proves exactly nothing.

[Master of Ossus]

When the orbital barrage first began Daala ordered all fighter pilots to stand down, and she left the Knight Hammer pretty much helpless. Yavin 4 was unable to ge out a message to anyone due to a communications jamming array, so Daala was not expecting company. For the first few minutes of her barrage she had full power going to all Turbolaser Batteries as she blasted the planet.

YOU IGNORED the QUOTE, DUMBASS. Why don't you do your fucking research before you come in here and spout your bullshit. Daala ordered all turbolaser BATTERIES to fire AT WILL on structures. This is not REMOTELY analogous to a BDZ. Your lies and distortions that it disproves a BDZ show NOTHING, because not only is this operation NOT the orderly destruction shown by a BDZ, but it doesn't involve all of the SSD's weapons. It doesn't even involve a concerted strike from all of the ship's turbolaser batteries. It merely orders them to fire at will. That is NOT a BDZ, contrary to your moronic claims and beliefs. Thanks to Wayne Poe for pointing out your stupidity and your lies.