Militaristic Carnivores and Pacifist Herbivores, Brainbug?

[Vultur]

I had a fairly interesting idea about this once.

The general concept was that there are 2 sentient species on one planet. One is an herbivore; one is a carnivore which is specialized to feed on that sentient herbivore.

The "twist" was that the carnivores were the noble, honest, honorable race; the herbivores were cruel, callous, and a bit Nazi-ish.

Here is how it came about. Both species developed sentience concurrently (in a sort of "evolutionary arms race"). As they became more sentient, they began to build weapons. The herbivores thus became more deadly to their predators, which tried to find alternate prey. They discovered that though they could feed mostly on non-sentient animals, the sentient herbivore had concentrations of a nutrient which they needed to survive and was rare in other prey.

As their culture developed, the carnivores created a very honor-bound hunt for the herbivores; the stronger and more nimble carnivores would go forth and kill a herbivore, and bring back its carcass to distribute to the tribe (since only a little meat could provide a sufficient dose of the necessary nutrient).

Thus, their culture became fairly feudal, with the best fighters/hunters (either male or female; they are oviparous and thus less sexually dimorphic in size and strength than humans) establishing hunting territories near herbivore villages and tribes and raiding them only when necessary for survival. Killing "extra" herbivores (except in defense of life or tribe, of course!) was seen as a crime nearly as bad as killing one of your own species.

The herbivores, though, not accepting even these small and ritualized losses, began staking out their weakest members to be taken. Once they reached a point in their society where they considered this unacceptable, they began to wage a genocidal war (with their more advanced technology, about Rome level now vs. a Bronze-Age carnivore civilization) against the carnivores.

What do you think?

[Zor]

I am not too fond of the whole Honorable warrior race thing and frankly the Carnivorous sapients have it coming if they think that they can get away with killing other sapients for food.

Zor

[speaker-to-trolls]

Vultur: Sounds like a cool idea, but I too find it very difficult to have any sympathy for these carnivores if they're so hell-bent on sticking to one food source even when it's so dangerous. It'd be kind of like lions insisting on hunting hippopotami despite the fact that they're perhaps the single most dangerous big animal in Africa. Also, look at it from the herbivores point of view; carnivores generally go after isolated, weak individuals who can be taken down with a minimum of risk, eg: the sick, the old and the young. If something was stalking around at the edge of town and eating your children I doubt you'd think too highly of it. Not that the carnivores necessarily deserve to be exterminated, it's just that you seem a bit quick to villify the herbivores.

Anyway. I agree that there's a bit of a brainbug going on here, although it isn't exactly that widespread. Well, herbivorous species aren't anyway, carnivorous warrior species, usually felinoid ones, are all over the bloody place. I think it's entirely possible that a herbivorous species could be just as or more aggressive or more so than we are, particularly if they are evolved from large herd-types. If they're evolved from small-group foragers like gorillas or bonobos, on the other hand, they could actually end up as pacifists, though, as noted, gorillas are not quite as peaceful as they are often portrayed, and having farmland to defend can change a lot of things.

I'm personally not sure whether carnivores could even become civilised, supporting a massive, fixed population such as is required for a civilised society is a lot harder than many people think, and as far as I know all human civilisations have subsisted on plants and supplemented their diet with meat.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe the higher echelons of the Herbivore Society have made a pact with the Carnivore Kings.

The Herbivore Lords use the threat of the Carnivore to put fear into the hearts of their populace. With the Carnivore "boogeyman", the Herbivore Lords can maintain their leadership of the herd-cities and rule with an iron grip.

The Carnivore Kings get their fair share of Herbivores to feed on. They do what the Herbivore Lords want, scare the Herbivore populace, and the Herbivore Lords give them sacrifices to feed on.

The Carnivore Kings send their youngest and most promising warriors to "hunt" the Herbivores. It's an arduous task, and a lot of young Carnivores are lost. But this ensures that the younger generation of Carnivores are kept in check and none of them grow strong enough to usurp the Carnivore Kings.

Eventually, the Carnivore Kings get tired of being the thugs of the Herbivore Lords. Once the Carnivore People get all the tech and stuff they need, they'll decide to ice the Herbivore Lords and run the show for themselves.

The normal Herbivores are sick of being ruled by the tyrannical Herbivore Lords - maybe a plucky adventurous Herbivore discovers the blasphemous pact the Herbivore Lords have made with the Carnivore King.

And maybe the Carnivores believe in a fanatic religion that necessitates them to ritualistically consume the flesh of Herbivores. The periodic consumption of Herbivores during holy feast days is said to be vital to their life - even though it is just a sham and they can survive just by feeding on un-intelligent life.

The Carnivore Kings perpetuate this lie to suit their ends.

An idealistic young Carnivore who is philosophically inclined discovers the falseness of this belief - and this young Carnivore also has objections with killing and eating other sentient sapient creatures.

The roles of predator and prey, subverted and explored in a gripping sci-fi story in the postapocalyptic future!

Maybe the Herbivores and Carnivores eventually discover that they once had common ancestry - a progenitor race of creatures that could eat both meat and grain. HUMANS!

A twist ending too, huh?

[Vultur]

The reason the carnivores "insist" on eating sentient herbivores is that they are the only source of sufficient quantities of a necessary nutrient, as I said in the first post. They can't survive without eating the sentient herbivores.

ShroomMan777, your concept is very, very cool too, but it's a completely different idea and theme. I was largely trying to come up with a way that a sentient-eating carnivore could avoid being evil.

[Shroom Man 777]

The reason the carnivores "insist" on eating sentient herbivores is that they are the only source of sufficient quantities of a necessary nutrient, as I said in the first post. They can't survive without eating the sentient herbivores.

Eating sentient sapient beings is evil.

Unless these Carnivores make a deal with the Herbivores to, I don't know, be the ones who met out the death penalty. The Carnivores could eat old Herbivores and criminal Herbivores.

ShroomMan777, your concept is very, very cool too, but it's a completely different idea and theme. I was largely trying to come up with a way that a sentient-eating carnivore could avoid being evil.

But yeah, I kinda ignored that nutrient requirement and changed it so that their need to feed on the sentient Herbivores was due to quasi-religious needs.

Because I found the Carnivores hard to sympathize. Besides the fact that they are a warrior race, eating other sentient sapients IS evil. I can't fault the Herbivores for wanting to annihilate them - after an existence ruled by fear and such, who can blame them?

[JointStrikeFighter]

The reason the carnivores "insist" on eating sentient herbivores is that they are the only source of sufficient quantities of a necessary nutrient, as I said in the first post. They can't survive without eating the sentient herbivores.

Eating sentient sapient beings is evil.

Unless these Carnivores make a deal with the Herbivores to, I don't know, be the ones who met out the death penalty. The Carnivores could eat old Herbivores and criminal Herbivores.

ShroomMan777, your concept is very, very cool too, but it's a completely different idea and theme. I was largely trying to come up with a way that a sentient-eating carnivore could avoid being evil.

But yeah, I kinda ignored that nutrient requirement and changed it so that their need to feed on the sentient Herbivores was due to quasi-religious needs.

Because I found the Carnivores hard to sympathize. Besides the fact that they are a warrior race, eating other sentient sapients IS evil. I can't fault the Herbivores for wanting to annihilate them - after an existence ruled by fear and such, who can blame them?

The herbivores not letting the carnivores eat the occasional herbivore is also EVIL!!!! Without the odd herbivores the carnivores die just as much it seems.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's not murder if it's self defense.

[JointStrikeFighter]

I get the impression that killing one herbivore means a large number of carnivores survive. If you consider the most moral option is to maintain the maximum number of sentient beings than the carnivores actions are the most morally sound.

[Shroom Man 777]

I prefer my storyline

Hrm. It'd be nice if the nutrient requirement was a genetically engineered one.

[Vultur]

ShroomMan777, yours is a great idea, but mine was specifically a way to get a non-evil sentient-eating carnivore - it isn't really evil since they have no choice at all.

Now, when they get to the tech-level that they can make the nutrient artificially, it might well be evil to eat the herbivores then - or it would be, if the herbivores were not by this point almost demonic.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, yours is an interesting concept - but it's a very difficult one as well.

I don't think turning the carnivores into a Proud Warrior Race is a good idea. They have to be regretful in killing sentient sapient creatures, it has to be morally ambiguous. Maybe those Proud Warriors who bring back the carcass of a Herbivore are simultaneously glorified and vilified. In that they're regarded as heroes, but they themselves must prostrate for the act of killing a sapient by flagellating themselves or by branding themselves with hot irons for each and every kill. They know what they're doing is a sin, but it's a very necessary sin.

Maybe one of the Regretful Remorseful Proud Warriors feels guilty and can't bring himself to kill a particularly young member of the Herbivores, and so he goes to explain to that Herbivore precisely why they do what they do, and then he lets the Young Herbivore free.

The Young Herbivore perhaps tells the other Herbivores of what the Carnivore told him. Maybe the Young Herbivore ends up getting suppressed by those Nazi Leader Herbivores.

or it would be, if the herbivores were not by this point almost demonic.

Why should the Herbivores be demonic? They're frightened herd-creatures who are getting hunted. They aren't in the wrong if they feel the need to defend themselves.

There should be moral ambiguity. One side isn't good, one side isn't evil.

The Carnivores murder sentient creatures because they must feed on Herbivore flesh.

The Herbivores kill Carnivores because the Carnivores want to eat them. Sure, the Carnivores only eat very little of the Herbivores - but do you think the Herbivores care about that? What about the Herbivores who've lost children to hungry Carnivores?

If there was a species of crocodile that fed exclusively on humans, do you think the Australian government would periodically send people to be devoured by those creatures? Hell no. The Australians wouldn't give a shit if those Human-Eating crocodiles starved to death and went extinct.

You can't glorify the Carnivores while simultaneously demonizing all of the Herbivores.

Hell, maybe there could be Herbivore Environmentalist and Conservationists who want to open a dialogue with the Carnivores. Put the Carnivores in reservations while figuring out a way for the Carnivores not to starve to death. Maybe by donating corpses, or having the Carnivores eat criminals on death row.

It's still iffy. I wouldn't want my corpse or the bodies of deceased love ones to be eaten by a bunch of monsters - even if those monsters could read, write and wear underwear.

[Vultur]

Well, yours is an interesting concept - but it's a very difficult one as well.

Yes, it's very difficult.

I don't think turning the carnivores into a Proud Warrior Race is a good idea. They have to be regretful in killing sentient sapient creatures, it has to be morally ambiguous. Maybe those Proud Warriors who bring back the carcass of a Herbivore are simultaneously glorified and vilified. In that they're regarded as heroes, but they themselves must prostrate for the act of killing a sapient by flagellating themselves or by branding themselves with hot irons for each and every kill. They know what they're doing is a sin, but it's a very necessary sin.
T

Maybe one of the Regretful Remorseful Proud Warriors feels guilty and can't bring himself to kill a particularly young member of the Herbivores, and so he goes to explain to that Herbivore precisely why they do what they do, and then he lets the Young Herbivore free.

The Young Herbivore perhaps tells the other Herbivores of what the Carnivore told him. Maybe the Young Herbivore ends up getting suppressed by those Nazi Leader Herbivores.

Why should the Herbivores be demonic? They're frightened herd-creatures who are getting hunted. They aren't in the wrong if they feel the need to defend themselves.

There should be moral ambiguity. One side isn't good, one side isn't evil.

Why does everything have to be morally ambiguous? Why can't there be some real good and real evil?

If there was a species of crocodile that fed exclusively on humans, do you think the Australian government would periodically send people to be devoured by those creatures? Hell no. The Australians wouldn't give a shit if those Human-Eating crocodiles starved to death and went extinct.

The carnivores don't eat the sentient herbivores exclusively. Maybe 1 Herbivore per 50-100 Carnivores per year - that's not much different from what crocodiles really do, and they're not sentient.

You can't glorify the Carnivores while simultaneously demonizing all of the Herbivores.

Oh, there are good Herbivores too - but they're very suppressed by the leadership and so now exist only in splinter colonies.

Hell, maybe there could be Herbivore Environmentalist and Conservationists who want to open a dialogue with the Carnivores. Put the Carnivores in reservations while figuring out a way for the Carnivores not to starve to death. Maybe by donating corpses, or having the Carnivores eat criminals on death row.

It's still iffy. I wouldn't want my corpse or the bodies of deceased love ones to be eaten by a bunch of monsters - even if those monsters could read, write and wear underwear.

Well, it seems a less terrible way to be disposed of than to rot in a coffin. Maybe that's just a me thing.

[Vultur]

Oh, by the way, just to clear up one thing - the Herbivores don't live in terror, and aren't being decimated by Carnivore attacks. The death rate from the Carnivores is about 1 in 10,000 a year, and they have shorter life cycles so it's more like

The Herbivores used to be a lot more sympathetic, but by this point they're sort of Sparta (militaristic) + Nazis (insane eugenics and genocides) + Aztecs (mass sacrifice).

[Shroom Man 777]

Why does everything have to be morally ambiguous? Why can't there be some real good and real evil?

Because. Having a race of good guys and having a race of bad guys isn't that cool. It's like making every every Arab a terrorist, or every Klingon (except the one who...Discovers His HUMANITY!) an antagonist.

The carnivores don't eat the sentient herbivores exclusively. Maybe 1 Herbivore per 50-100 Carnivores per year - that's not much different from what crocodiles really do, and they're not sentient.

I wonder what the Carnivore's prey-selection process is like.

[Molyneux]

It's still iffy. I wouldn't want my corpse or the bodies of deceased love ones to be eaten by a bunch of monsters - even if those monsters could read, write and wear underwear.

...really? Why not?
I'm probably looking at this from something of a different perspective, since I'm actually in favor of the idea of "air burial" rather than rotting in the ground. Still, once I'm done with my body, if it'll help someone else stay alive I'd gladly give consent for it to be given to them.

[Sea Skimmer]

Being highly intelligent and being an omnivore go hand in hand, being able to eat a wide range of food lets you exploit that intelligence and will encourage its expansion. If you’re a predator your not likely to evolve to be highly intelligent, because you need to evolve to be faster or stronger or bigger to catch prey. I’d have to wonder if a realistic herbivore meanwhile could even get enough protein to support a brain with human level intelligence. It takes an awful lot of meal planning for vegans to live a completely healthy lifestyle for example.

[Shroom Man 777]

Cannibalism is heavily frowned upon in our society.

How do you think the Herbivores will react to the Carnivores? Will they consent to have the bodies of the deceased be devoured? Let's not forget that the Carnivores also attack and kill and eat living Herbivores.

Vultur's scenario says that "nowadays" the Carnivores eat as few Herbivores as they can. But was it always this way?

Maybe in ancient times, the Herbivores were the ones running for their lives, constantly living in fear at the monsters who prey on the young and the sick and the old, who come at the dark of the night.

Do the Carnivores limit the number of Herbivores they eat because they really do believe in the sanctity of sentient and sapient life? If the Herbivores were defenseless, would the Carnivores not devour them like an all-you-can-eat buffet? Were the Carnivores ALWAYS this ethical? Maybe one of the reasons why Carnivores limit their Herbivore Hunts once a year is because the Herbivores developed the capacity to defend themselves and strike back.

In ancient and primitive times, was it not the Carnivores who first attacked the Herbivores and killed them for their meat? You don't see cows or buffaloes pre-emptively striking lions or wolves.

Look at humanity. We're one species and we've been killing each other ever since we evolved as a species. There's a frightening amount of bad blood, races and people and cultures and nationalities kill each other for no good reason - in the name of abstract concepts like religion, politics, sometimes for more tangible things like resources. Why should Carnivores value the sanctity of sentient sapient life - the lives of another species - when we human beings can even barely manage doing so? A hundred years ago, White Men barely even recognized Blacks as human beings - and you think the Carnivores will regard the Herbivores any differently?

Do you think the Carnivore-Herbivore relationship is going to be any less different? Why should the Carnivores be any more benevolent than Palestinian extremists? All the Carnivores want is to eat a Herbivore once a year. All a Palestinian wants is the Israelis out of their land.

If the dynamics were changed, if the Carnivores and the Palestinians were not at a disadvantaged position - the Herbivores and Israelis did not have the high ground - surely the dynamic would be different. The Carnivores won't be so noble.

If the Herbivores didn't have the high ground - well, how would you feel if you and your people were at the mercy of Carnivores, that periodically they would choose one of you to roast for dinner, that the next one they chose might be you or the ones you love? Once upon a time, I'm certain Herbivores lived like this. And that's why they chose to defend themselves and kill the monsters who preyed on them.

The Herbivores won't forget how, in ancient primitive times, their ancestors were hunted as food. In fact, they'd celebrate the fact that their brave ancestors fought and killed off the ravenous Carnivores and developed the tools with which to protect their children. They'd celebrate the fact that now, Carnivores can no longer hunt at will and are nothing but glorified packs of wild dogs. The Herbivore Independence Day would celebrate the Emancipation of the Herbivores and the Emasculation of the Carnivores.

A lot of folks would take the moral high ground, but this Herbivore-Carnivore relationship isn't different from any other human conflict in history. Probably even worse. There won't be clear cut good guys or bad guys.


I don't know, that's just how I interpret things. If I see a pack of lions feast on a newborn elephant, and the next day a herd of angry elephants trample the whole pride of lions - even going so far as to stomp the skulls of the lion cubs, I'm going to cheer for the elephants. If this happens throughout Africa and the predator-prey cycle is utterly destroyed, I'd be concerned, but I won't fault the elephants. Replace the elephants with buffalo or zebras and it's the same.

[Junghalli]

On the herbivore/carnivore scenario:

Couldn't the herbivores just leave their dead to the carnivores instead? If the number of herbivores the carnivores kill annually is low it's hard to believe it wouldn't be exceeded by natural attrition, in which case the carnivores wouldn't ever have to actually kill any of the herbivores to have enough to eat. The carnivores would have to be decimating the herbivores in order for natural attrition to not be enough. Otherwise it's pretty hard to have the carnivores not look like complete dicks, or the herbivores look really stupid for just leaving their dead to them.

I suppose there could be some chemical in the herbivores the carnivores need to live that breaks down within minutes of death or something.

[Shroom Man 777]

Sometimes there's so much animosity that even when a reasonable solution is right there, hatred will still blind them from the right choice. Human beings look for reasons to kill one another, it'll be no different with these Herbivores and Carnivores. No one is innocent, no one is guiltless.

[speaker-to-trolls]

In ancient and primitive times, was it not the Carnivores who first attacked the Herbivores and killed them for their meat? You don't see cows or buffaloes pre-emptively striking lions or wolves.

Sorry, Shroom, but that is INCORRECT: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/448983/bu ... ack_lions/.

Being highly intelligent and being an omnivore go hand in hand, being able to eat a wide range of food lets you exploit that intelligence and will encourage its expansion. If you’re a predator your not likely to evolve to be highly intelligent, because you need to evolve to be faster or stronger or bigger to catch prey. I’d have to wonder if a realistic herbivore meanwhile could even get enough protein to support a brain with human level intelligence. It takes an awful lot of meal planning for vegans to live a completely healthy lifestyle for example.

I think in most cases intelligence is tied more to social complexity than diet, the big exception being octopi, who are freaks. Elephants and gorillas, while not on our level, are both herbivours and in addition to being in the MENSA of non-human animals are far, far bigger than humans. Dolphins are also on that intelligence level and they're carnivores.

[Shroom Man 777]

Sorry, Shroom, but that is INCORRECT: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/448983/bu ... ack_lions/.

That is incredible. Good for the buffaloes. The lions had it coming. I would have no objections if all the buffaloes took it upon themselves to kill as many lions and lion cubs as they could.

[Molyneux]

Sorry, Shroom, but that is INCORRECT: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/448983/bu ... ack_lions/.

That is incredible. Good for the buffaloes. The lions had it coming. I would have no objections if all the buffaloes took it upon themselves to kill as many lions and lion cubs as they could.

...except that any buffalo that didn't waste time and energy to kill the lions, and instead just ate and reproduced, would have a fairly major advantage over those that did.

[Civil War Man]

Another way to make the non-violent sentient carnivores is to make them scavengers. Maybe the herbivore beliefs regarding death are similar to the Tibetan Buddhist (who wrap the body up and leave it out in the wilderness for the scavengers, because they don't consider the body important once it's dead), in which case the two civilizations would have a symbiotic relationship going.

[Typhonis 1]

Hey Shroom man about your future carnivore-herbivore idea. Read much H.G. Wells?