Draka question

[Typhonis 1]

Could the Dominate of Draka have had help from the future like in Guns of the South? IE Apartheid liking South Africans went back in time and used their knowledge, couldn`t take the gear with them , to create the Dominate?

[Morilore]

Could the Dominate of Draka have had help from the future like in Guns of the South? IE Apartheid liking South Africans went back in time and used their knowledge, couldn`t take the gear with them , to create the Dominate?

If you're talking about the OTL, humanity in general basically had to have some kind of outside help, if only because the rate of technological advancement in that universe was absofuckinglutely ridiculous.

[Morilore]

Could the Dominate of Draka have had help from the future like in Guns of the South? IE Apartheid liking South Africans went back in time and used their knowledge, couldn`t take the gear with them , to create the Dominate?

If you're talking about the OTL, humanity in general basically had to have some kind of outside help, if only because the rate of technological advancement in that universe was absofuckinglutely ridiculous.

Prole edit: Occam's razor, yeah. But if we're discussing hypothetical "lets make the timeline less retarded" scenarios...

[Axiomatic]

I suspect it didn't have any help, because the Draka timeline basically boils down to "what if everything that could even remotely go horribly wrong DID go wrong?" which is about equivalent to "What if the Draka had a never-ending streak of Godly Luck?"

[Vultur]

I really need to read the Draka books.

Even though I haven't been able to get the books yet, I found the timeline online. What exactly is impossible about it?

It looks like their computer technology is crap - they just focused on different things. And don't wars usually increase technological development? Why couldn't essentially 200 years of constant war/preparation for war have given the Draka godly technology?

[MJ12 Commando]

Wars tend to increase the application of science (technological development) but do very little to advance pure science, which is necessary to give a framework to this technology.

The late era gets kinda iffy with the crazy drugs and geneneered virii because the technology necessary for that, the precision and level of intimate knowledge, is incredibly difficult to get.

Also, retarded computer technology would have slowed most of the last twenty-thirty years of technology down massively, as extensive amounts of CAD/CAM have been the two biggest contributors to rapid replacement of obsolete equipment and rapid technical development.

A single mainframe is nice, and a turn on the lab supercomputer is always fun, but without the impetus that personal computing gives, I doubt there'd be as much of an advance in computer technology.

Most of the advances in computer technology since the mid-1990s aren't in response to physics or biology, but rather in response to graphics quality. Without personal computing becoming common in the 1980s, and sticking to ROMs like consoles instead of RAM and HDDs like modern computers, you're going to see massively stunted development in computers and many related fields, including cybernetics, information management, and simulations. The last is doubly hit because most of the increases in simulation fidelity in the last 20 years or so are because of personal computing needs, not governmental ones.

It's telling that most modern supercomputers today are basically a whole lot of PCs taped together with special software, and that's been the case for more than a decade. Without the PC you're probably going to see computers go on a different course, a very stunted and gnarled one-and by extension a lot of technology. If anything I'd expect Drakaverse technology to evolve slower after the 1970s than modern day.

So you get B-70s and SR-71s and Mach 4 fighters and whatnot... and... then what? I'd expect a massive push to the figurative technological limits up till the eighties, when CAD/CAM started being extensively used in civilian applications in OTL (and wouldn't be in Drakaverse)-and then a massive brick wall because the technologies needed to advance further wouldn't be available. Nobody would have the capacity.

[Morilore]

Dude, they had Orion rockets flying all over the goddamn solar system. They had a colony on Mars in the 1980's.

[MJ12 Commando]

Dude, they had Orion rockets flying all over the goddamn solar system. They had a colony on Mars in the 1980's.

Neither of which are particularly egregrious examples of superspeed tech advancement. If we built Orion and used it, we probably could have had a Mars colony in the 1960s.

[Sidewinder]

So you get B-70s and SR-71s and Mach 4 fighters and whatnot... and... then what? I'd expect a massive push to the figurative technological limits up till the eighties, when CAD/CAM started being extensively used in civilian applications in OTL (and wouldn't be in Drakaverse)-and then a massive brick wall because the technologies needed to advance further wouldn't be available. Nobody would have the capacity.

So basically, the Draka couldn't use genetic engineering to create gorilla-soldiers, the Stony Dogs virus, or immortal superhumans like Gwendolyn, because they don't have the technology to scan and manipulate DNA for those purposes? Every time I hear about S. M. Stirling's works, I seem to find more reasons to be grateful I've yet to read those works.

[Setzer]

I don't know much about computers as some board members, but from what I understand, Drakaverse computer design is about as intelligent as cutting a human to pieces and keeping each bit in an airtight container so viruses can't spread through the system. Sure it's ultrasecure, but going to such extremes means building the whole thing wasn't worth bothering with in the first place.

[phongn]

The late era gets kinda iffy with the crazy drugs and geneneered virii because the technology necessary for that, the precision and level of intimate knowledge, is incredibly difficult to get.

I do believe the word you're looking for is "viruses."

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

The late era gets kinda iffy with the crazy drugs and geneneered virii because the technology necessary for that, the precision and level of intimate knowledge, is incredibly difficult to get.

I do believe the word you're looking for is "viruses."

Read an be amazed!

All hail english! The language of multiple words for the plural of a singular noun!

[Typhonis 1]

My question isn`t about the later tech but when the Draka first start out. Could they have been influenced by poeople and knowledge from the future?

[phongn]

My question isn`t about the later tech but when the Draka first start out. Could they have been influenced by people and knowledge from the future?

Uh, no.

[Vultur]

Why would you need to have computers to do genetic engineering? It might be harder, but it could be done. The Draka definitely wouldn't have welfare or anything of the sort, so massive government money could be dumped into any tech with military applications.

We could have had a Mars colony by the 80s if we hadn't stopped after Apollo. A totalitarian government wouldn't care about public disinterest, which is basically what killed ours.

[Junghalli]

My question isn`t about the later tech but when the Draka first start out. Could they have been influenced by people and knowledge from the future?

Uh, no.

They had people messing around with weird shit like dimensional travel in the 2400s in that universe, and heaven knows the whole timeline is so improbable it just begs for alien space bats as an explanation. Is the idea really that ridiculous?

Here's a weird thought: maybe the Draka are the result of the future-Draka going back and interfering with the timeline as part of a temporal war with the Samothracians, so they created themselves?

[phongn]

Why would you need to have computers to do genetic engineering? It might be harder, but it could be done. The Draka definitely wouldn't have welfare or anything of the sort, so massive government money could be dumped into any tech with military applications.

To do the sort of genetic engineering seen in the series? You'll definitely need computers for gene sequencing and the like.

They had people messing around with weird shit like dimensional travel in the 2400s in that universe, and heaven knows the whole timeline is so improbable it just begs for alien space bats as an explanation. Is the idea really that ridiculous?

Well, as ridiculous as the canon timeline is, we don't need to make it even worse by adding in time-travel.

[xammer99]

A couple of things.

1. The Draka frequently reference how they steal American computer designs.

2. A subplot in Stone Dogs was one of the top American Computer Geek who defected and had to be offed. So leading people did defect from time to time.

3. Dyson, Teller, and the other fellas at La Jolla were absolutely confident, in the 50's when they started working on Orion, that if they'd have gotten the funding and okay, they coulda had a working Orion by the mid to late 60's and were envisioning a "Grand Tour of the Solar System". That was a ground launch Orion btw, not the later scaled down Saturn V boosted one either.

The biggest Orion proponent in the USAF, a fella named Mixon, envisioned an entire Orion Fleet of the things in lunar orbit, to provide the ultimate deterrent, by the 70's.

So in a world w/o a nuclear test ban and no restrictions on building nuclear weapons, I don't think it's that far fetched to have working Orions.

[Norseman]

I don't know much about computers as some board members, but from what I understand, Drakaverse computer design is about as intelligent as cutting a human to pieces and keeping each bit in an airtight container so viruses can't spread through the system. Sure it's ultrasecure, but going to such extremes means building the whole thing wasn't worth bothering with in the first place.

It's one of those science-fiction stories written by someone who got their education in the 1950s-1960s. For some reason such people think that Big Iron computers are a viable alternative to PCs, if only things went differently. They tend to completely ignore that the early PCs were so simple to make that Heathkit handed out "Do it Yourself" computer kits. Basically the PC is inevitable no matter WHAT the government invests in or thinks of the matter, it's so simple and so practical that there's nothing that can be done about it.

However, once more, it's a trap common to people who's views were formed in the 1950s and 1960s, so I don't really blame Stirling for that one. He at least doesn't pretend to be a computer expert

[Norseman]

A couple of things.

1. The Draka frequently reference how they steal American computer designs.

2. A subplot in Stone Dogs was one of the top American Computer Geek who defected and had to be offed. So leading people did defect from time to time.

This is a relevant quote as to how Drakan computers work:

"Bim, but only because we have made it so." He tapped the ferrule of the cane on the ground. "Perhaps computers could only have started as they did, large machines used for cryptography, for the handling of statistics. Precious assets, jealously guarded. They have grown immensely faster, immensely more capable, even rather smaller—that first all-transistor model in 1942 was the size of a house! —but not different in nature."

"Well, how could they be?"

"For example… it is certainly technically possible to build central processing units small enough to power a perscomp. Yes, yes, quite difficult, but the micromachining processes we have developed for other purposes would do… if there were a strong development incentive. But our computers were always, hmm, how shall I say, limited in access. Perscomps were developed from the other end up, from the machinery intended to run machine tools, simulations, deal with the real world; only their instruction storage and the interfacers are digital, and the rest is analoge. We build them for a range of specific uses, and then develop the instruction-sets on larger machines; they are loaded into the smaller in cartridges. Complicated machines such as space warcraft have a maze of subsystems like that, linked to a central brain."

Wild speculation combined with restatement of the obvious, Lefarge thought. Then: No, wait a minute. We've been too narrowly focused on immediate problems. The Project's going to need real ingenuity, not just engineering. "But if we'd gone the other way… Jesus, Doctor, it'd be a security nightmare! Even as it is, we have to throw dozens of people in the slammer every year for illegal comping. There might be… oh, thousands of amateurs out there screwing around with vital instruction sets. The Draka could scoop it up off the market! Then think of the problems if you could copy embedded corepaths and instruction sets over the wires between perscomps, Lord…"

Basically we're talking a combination of Big Iron machines, where everyone hooks up to the same mainframe, and hardwired programming. They're so inflexible that people who mess with computer sets are placed in jail fer crying out loud!

As I've said earlier it doesn't matter what the government invests in, the free market would have made Personal Computers.

3. Dyson, Teller, and the other fellas at La Jolla were absolutely confident, in the 50's when they started working on Orion, that if they'd have gotten the funding and okay, they coulda had a working Orion by the mid to late 60's and were envisioning a "Grand Tour of the Solar System". That was a ground launch Orion btw, not the later scaled down Saturn V boosted one either.

The biggest Orion proponent in the USAF, a fella named Mixon, envisioned an entire Orion Fleet of the things in lunar orbit, to provide the ultimate deterrent, by the 70's.

So in a world w/o a nuclear test ban and no restrictions on building nuclear weapons, I don't think it's that far fetched to have working Orions.

I suggest you read Problems with the Orion Spacecraft and please note that a lot of engineers have been absolutely confident that a lot of projects would work...

[Baal]

There are so many problems with the Draka that one doesnt know where to start.

The most basic is also the most basic concept of the books. Slavery. No society in the history of mankind has been technologically focused while it was a slave holding society.

The two ideas are opposites. The more technology you have the less you need the slaves. In addition in a slave holding society the elite of society are the plantation owners. If they are the elite and they are who everyone wants to be then who are teh engineers and the scientists?

Is the book suggesting that that Draka train their slaves well enough to be their scientsts and engineers? Or even less likely that enough smart citizens forgo any real chance at elevation in society by being engineers and scientists?

Sure you may have the ocassional egg-head thrid son of the plantation owner but you will never have enough to match the scientific potential of the free world.

Also the fact that the Draka control all of Eurasia basically means there is unlimited land for expansion. Eldest son gets parents plantation and then every following child who survives their time in the military can easily be supplied with a few thousand acres somewhere and a few hundred slaves to run it.

A realistic story would have the Draka crushed a couple decades after WW2 by the Free world that is easily decades ahead of them technologically.

Stirlings work is a steaming pile of utter shit.

[Norseman]

There are so many problems with the Draka that one doesnt know where to start.

I'll try to answer some of your questions.

The most basic is also the most basic concept of the books. Slavery. No society in the history of mankind has been technologically focused while it was a slave holding society.

The Confederated States of America was the fourth or fifth most industrialised state in the world. They were only agrarian and rural by comparison to the North.

The Draka DO suffer a lot from an inefficient economy, especially since 30% of the serf population is occupied in agricultural pursuits. They should have been far, far worse off, especially given the inherent inefficiency of their economic system. However I could see their system functioning up to the late 19th Century, but that's where they'd really start having trouble.

The two ideas are opposites. The more technology you have the less you need the slaves. In addition in a slave holding society the elite of society are the plantation owners. If they are the elite and they are who everyone wants to be then who are teh engineers and the scientists?

Scientists and engineers are very well paid, and of course there's nothing that stops them from eventually becoming planters with the money they earn. Moreover other slave holding / backwards states were often reasonably advanced in the field of pure science (CSA and Tsarist Russia). The problem isn't so much engineers and scientists as it's the ability to build what the engineers design.

Is the book suggesting that that Draka train their slaves well enough to be their scientsts and engineers? Or even less likely that enough smart citizens forgo any real chance at elevation in society by being engineers and scientists?

Sure you may have the ocassional egg-head thrid son of the plantation owner but you will never have enough to match the scientific potential of the free world.

Indeed the Draka never could match the scientific potential of the free world, but they could buy technology abroad or steal it. Even so they were always behind the Alliance.

Also the fact that the Draka control all of Eurasia basically means there is unlimited land for expansion. Eldest son gets parents plantation and then every following child who survives their time in the military can easily be supplied with a few thousand acres somewhere and a few hundred slaves to run it.

Which is more or less what happened in the books.

A realistic story would have the Draka crushed a couple decades after WW2 by the Free world that is easily decades ahead of them technologically.

They should never have won WW2, and the whole DrakaFic project is about demonstrating that.

Stirlings work is a steaming pile of utter shit.

I would say that as Alt-Hist it's not ideal, but the writing as writing, as in prose, as in drive, is fairly good. Stirlings main problem seems to be that he's very good at writing, but not so good at technology. It could be worse, he could have a ton of technological knowhow and feel the need to squeeze it in everywhere he could, but absolutely no ability to write a story See various techno thrillers.

[Baal]

The CSA might have been the 4th or 5th but that was due to what it had gained as part of the USA. No one would suggest it remained 4th or 5th say 20 years later if it had remained a country.

The Draka never really lagged conpared to the Free World. Remember the idiocy that was the Hond III?

Yep, somehow during WW2 a slave socity designed and built in massive numbers a tank that per its description would have been a pretty comparable foe to the M1 Abrams.

Sure you could be an engineer then a plantation owner but you never see that in the books. The few scientists and engineers you see seem to be the typical abused by the SD geeks who somehow in Draka society is still the typical nerd.


Oh and on top of all this the Draka somehow suceed in deploying slave legions that outnumber their own factor by a huge margin equiped with advanced armor and weapons (as seen in the India campaign) who never for any reason decide to rise up wipe the floor with their Draka masters.


I do completely agree on your last point though. Stirling was a decent writer in the technical sense. The prose were decent and the book itself was easy to read. The problem being Stirling wrote a BS ending and then had to write a very poorly thought out convoluted story to explain it.

[Baal]

TO put the whole thing bluntly the Draka have about as much chance of dominating the world as the Spartans would have of conquering all of Greece.

Neither could happen no matter how much luck was on their side.

[Darth Hoth]

Why would you need to have computers to do genetic engineering? It might be harder, but it could be done. The Draka definitely wouldn't have welfare or anything of the sort, so massive government money could be dumped into any tech with military applications.

We could have had a Mars colony by the 80s if we hadn't stopped after Apollo. A totalitarian government wouldn't care about public disinterest, which is basically what killed ours.

The Draka do have welfare. They just call it something else (a "Citizen grant/stipend" if I'm not mistaken). Apparently it's enough to live quite comfortably on (converted to our standards, that'd translate into "in decadent luxury"). Sure, they don't have to pay off a large underclass, but the upper classes cost a hell of a lot more to maintain. And to boot, taxes are supposed to be absurdly low; Draka society is to social libertarianism what Freehold is to the capitalist variant, apparently.

As to the ridiculous "slavery works better than a free market" idea: the SS tried that during the war. It didn't work. Reason? The cost of guarding the workers was greater than the value of what they produced.