WH40K questions.

[Lord Revan]

first how the Tau react to the visible aspects of the "supernatural" aspects of the WH:40k verse (like the daemons and psykers), do they have "it's not real, it's not real, it's not real..." way of dealing with it (like pre-heresy Imperium) or do they deal with it some other way.

Second has there been any numbers on just how large the pre-heresy astrades legions were (the Horus heresy books said the Luna Wolves had a 25th company so assuming the 100 per company (from Codex) and no unused company numbers that would give the Luna wolves 2500 marines (plus unspecified number of non-astrades of the 63rd expedition fleet))

[Aaron]

Horus Rising has 10th Company numbering 600 Marines at the Whisperhead action. If all companies are the same size that gives us 15,000 Marines.

I've also seen that the pre-heresy Ultramarines numbered around 20,000 and was a larger Legion. Not sure where that came from though.

[Bedlam]

No real evidence but I've always assumed that the formal strength for a pre Heresy Company was ~1000 marines and that when they split into chapters they just gave each company a new name and made it a chapter.

[Vendetta]

first how the Tau react to the visible aspects of the "supernatural" aspects of the WH:40k verse (like the daemons and psykers), do they have "it's not real, it's not real, it's not real..." way of dealing with it (like pre-heresy Imperium) or do they deal with it some fleet

Same way everyone else reacts in 40k I expect. Shooting at it until it goes away.

[Cykeisme]

Vendetta, while technically true, I don't think that's what Revan meant when he asked how they "react" to it

He's referring to how they categorize and analyze Warp phenomenon, particularly the more interesting aspects, such as real-universe manifestations of malicious sapient entities that live in the Immaterium.

Considering that (afaik) they approach things in a scientific manner, I'd like to know this as well.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

first how the Tau react to the visible aspects of the "supernatural" aspects of the WH:40k verse (like the daemons and psykers), do they have "it's not real, it's not real, it's not real..." way of dealing with it (like pre-heresy Imperium) or do they deal with it some other way.

If I remember the novel Fire Warrior correctly, they first attempted to dis-believe, with most of them hiding in corners, sobbing. Kais, the main character of the story, is close to total breakdown, but the Ethereal and the Ultramarines Captain talks to him and he eventually snaps out of it, and soon afterwards his way of dealing with it is through superior firepower.

I believe the Tau reason for being involved in the recent Medusa V campaign was to capture and study warp related equipment from the other races.

[NecronLord]

Horus Rising has 10th Company numbering 600 Marines at the Whisperhead action. If all companies are the same size that gives us 15,000 Marines.

I've also seen that the pre-heresy Ultramarines numbered around 20,000 and was a larger Legion. Not sure where that came from though.

You're missing a digit. The Artbook establishes the Ultramarines at 200,000 and the average legion at around 150,000.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

first how the Tau react to the visible aspects of the "supernatural" aspects of the WH:40k verse (like the daemons and psykers), do they have "it's not real, it's not real, it's not real..." way of dealing with it (like pre-heresy Imperium) or do they deal with it some other way.

If I remember the novel Fire Warrior correctly, they first attempted to dis-believe, with most of them hiding in corners, sobbing. Kais, the main character of the story, is close to total breakdown, but the Ethereal and the Ultramarines Captain talks to him and he eventually snaps out of it, and soon afterwards his way of dealing with it is through superior firepower.

I believe the Tau reason for being involved in the recent Medusa V campaign was to capture and study warp related equipment from the other races.

EDIT: The Tau are starting to realise that the warp does exist, and that they lack something (the navigator gene) that they need in order to fully utillize warp travel, so their scientists are researching and studying the warp and warp-related phenomenons, and the Fire caste fight the forces of Chaos just as they would any other opponent, instead of running away scared.

[Aaron]

You're missing a digit. The Artbook establishes the Ultramarines at 200,000 and the average legion at around 150,000.

Unfortunately I don't have that book. That's a better set of numbers considering what the Imperium is trying to do at the start of the series, thanks. What's the name of the book, I'd like order it.

[NecronLord]

Unfortunately I don't have that book. That's a better set of numbers considering what the Imperium is trying to do at the start of the series, thanks. What's the name of the book, I'd like order it.

The version I've got is The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions but there's some smaller non-omnibus versions. It's a big hardbacked expensive thing. It's not a novel, of course, but was out before them, but part of the general series and includes some spoilers, Fulgrim particularly, is basically spoiled by this entirely.

[Aaron]

The version I've got is The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions but there's some smaller non-omnibus versions. It's a big hardbacked expensive thing. It's not a novel, of course, but was out before them, but part of the general series and includes some spoilers, Fulgrim particularly, is basically spoiled by this entirely.

That's ok, I've read upto Flight of the Einsteinian. So hopefully I won't spoil much else. Missed False Gods though, it's coming so I'll be caught up. Thanks a bunch.

[andrewgpaul]

That was the compilation of the 4 books that collected a load of the CCG card art, wasn't it?

I could be wrong, but I've also seen mention of the Chapter as an intermediate formation, between legion and Company.

[Kuja]

That was the compilation of the 4 books that collected a load of the CCG card art, wasn't it?

I could be wrong, but I've also seen mention of the Chapter as an intermediate formation, between legion and Company.

To my memory, you are correct on both counts.

[NecronLord]

To my memory, you are correct on both counts.

Quite so.

[NecronLord]

Slight error in my memory earlier.

There was no limit on the size of a Space Marine Legion, and most of them could muster at least 100,000 combatants. The Ultramarines Legion was by far the largest, and its Primarch, Roboute Gulliman, could call upon the services of over 250,000 Space Marines. New recruits were drawn from the Legion's Homeworld, or any of a hundred feral worlds famed for the warior prowess of their indigenous people.
The structure of a Space Marine army varied slightly from Legion to Legion, but at the core of all of them was the company of one hundred fighting men led by a captain. Companies were usually grouped into battalions, normally five companies strong, and led by a lieutenant commander. Batallions were brigaded together in pairs, as a regiemtn of one thousand warriors. Theres were variously known as 'regiments', 'wings', 'chapters' or 'great companies.' A Space Marine with the rank of commander, or in some cases, Lord Commander, led each of these units.

[Connor MacLeod]

Thats interesting, it suggests the Pre-Heresy SM strength was between 2 and 5 million. That sets some interesting conclusion on the sizes of the Space MArines and CSMs.

Also of interest is the "Great Companies" bit. As I recall the Space Wolves were organised into "Great Companites", and there were 12 "combat" companies plus one "support" (in the sense it held all the other tpyes of marines - Chaplains, Techmarines, etc.) If a Great Company = regiment, that could suggest the Space Wolves have/had 12-13 thousand Marines (Assuming, of course, they didn't redefine "Great Company" when they broke the legions, that is.)

If we knew or coudl approximate a breakdown in "worlds" and the distribution of assets when the Legions were broken down, we might be able to figure out how many Chapters came out from the first founding. As I recall 42 are known, but I dont remember if that was a definite figure or not. If it is, then you could probably divide roughly 2000 planets between 42 chapters

Edit: That also seems like t hat material draws heavily on the older fluff. I remember that in the early 1st/2nd edition the IG was also structured using "battalions".

I'm also starting to wonder if the "one thousand per chapter" figure refers only to straight line Space Marine warriors (assault, tatical, and devastators squads). Support elements (Techmarines, Fleet marines, Chaplains, and possibly scouts) may not be included - perhaps otehr loopholes (veteran but injured marines maybe not included because they are used as trainers, or rise to command positions or some such.)

double edit: IF you've read Angels of Darkness (like I have) they tend to s upport alot of the conclusions (Pre Heresy) in the quote Necronlord provided. IIRC it even suggested there were thousands of chapters prior to finding the Primarchs.

[Imperial Overlord]

One of the tau's client species, the nicassar, are psykers so the tau must be somewhat aware of the powers that can be drawn from the warp. Of course, the ordinary rank and file types could be kept completely ignorant.

[Connor MacLeod]

In Kill Team Tau make use of a servant/mercenary race of unknown type (not sure if they were Nicassar) as a sort of psychic "security check" on prospective non-tau members.

They also evidently make use of warp-gates/portals (The naturally occuring ones IIRC) for navigation as well as their "sub-warp" drive, thought hey have to navigate around via beacons.

Presumably, they're familiar enough with most kinds of more mundane phenomena (psychic attacks and whatnot) but I'm not s ure they've had all that much experience with Chaos or daemons (at least not enough to recognize it as such.)

Its been awhile since I read the Hoare Rogue Trader novels also, but I vaguely recall some comment that the Warp in/around the Damocles Gulf region and other parts of Tau space are "weird" for some reason (screwinga round with astropathic comms and warp travel, I believe.) so this may help insulate the Tau from some of the nastier aspects of the Warp (in conjunction with their "little to no" psychic potential.)

[NecronLord]

It's possible that the senior Tau know about these things, but simply reject the primative interpretation of them as deities and demons; they're warp entities, reflections of the latent psychoactivity of trillions of humans. Oh, and there's a lot of mythology attached to them by those unenlightened by the Greater Good.

[Block]

Isn't it possible that the Etherials have some sort of ability to screen their race from this? Possibly even through the philosophy of "The Greater good?" Like somehow that unity of purpose and feeling prevents warp entities from really manifesting with any sort of power?

[NecronLord]

Isn't it possible that the Etherials have some sort of ability to screen their race from this?

Not any special ability, assuming they're not some kind of psyker. They can, however, use psychology. It should be noted that there are numerous examples of successful scientific societies that have existed despite the existance of the warp, chief amongst these, the Necrontyr (though they lived in a less warp-dangerous time) but also various human societies. The problem for humanity, is that they're having progressively more and more unstable psykers appear, and the warp is directly affecting their population (mutants). These are not problems for the Tau species, yet.

Possibly even through the philosophy of "The Greater good?" Like somehow that unity of purpose and feeling prevents warp entities from really manifesting with any sort of power?

Not as of yet. If they could unite the galaxy, and all the persons who contribute to the Chaos Gods, this would doubtless have an effect, but a regional variation doesn't matter, so much as the local warp weather; a Tau world engulfed in a warp storm is still liable to become a hell. While the Tau region of space remains stable, they're basically safe anyway, so long as they keep an eye on their psykers.

[Bedlam]

To be honest it seems like Tau see the warp in the same way as the pre-heresy imperium did. They seemed to have some undrestanding that there were Warp creatures just not what they realy where and how they worked.

However, given Tau's low phychic profile they might be able to hold on to this this point of view in the long term without a heresy type event destroying there civilisation, unlike the imperium.

[Shortie]

Thats interesting, it suggests the Pre-Heresy SM strength was between 2 and 5 million. That sets some interesting conclusion on the sizes of the Space Marines and CSMs.

Which makes it slightly odd that the Ultramarines, who were described as largely untouched by the Heresy, could only muster enough marines for 20-something chapters after it.

If we knew or coudl approximate a breakdown in "worlds" and the distribution of assets when the Legions were broken down, we might be able to figure out how many Chapters came out from the first founding. As I recall 42 are known, but I dont remember if that was a definite figure or not. If it is, then you could probably divide roughly 2000 planets between 42 chapters

So something like 1 million Loyalists went down to less than 50,000. That's a 95% casualty rate, which is really quite large. I've got real problems with the numbers they're throwing around nowadays, it's really hard to make them fit (plus I'm not a huge fan of the "Oh, everything was better then, there were more marines, more tech, more bunnies, more everything" approach to the fluff).

I'm also starting to wonder if the "one thousand per chapter" figure refers only to straight line Space Marine warriors (assault, tatical, and devastators squads). Support elements (Techmarines, Fleet marines, Chaplains, and possibly scouts) may not be included - perhaps otehr loopholes (veteran but injured marines maybe not included because they are used as trainers, or rise to command positions or some such.)

Well sure, but that still only gets to 1300, maybe 1500 at a maximum. I can't see even the Wolves having more than 2K including specialists, and the Templars maybe 5K spread around.

[Shortie]

Thats interesting, it suggests the Pre-Heresy SM strength was between 2 and 5 million. That sets some interesting conclusion on the sizes of the Space Marines and CSMs.

Which makes it slightly odd that the Ultramarines, who were described as largely untouched by the Heresy, could only muster enough marines for 20-something chapters after it.

If we knew or coudl approximate a breakdown in "worlds" and the distribution of assets when the Legions were broken down, we might be able to figure out how many Chapters came out from the first founding. As I recall 42 are known, but I dont remember if that was a definite figure or not. If it is, then you could probably divide roughly 2000 planets between 42 chapters

So something like 1 million Loyalists went down to less than 50,000. That's a 95% casualty rate, which is really quite large. I've got issues with the numbers they're throwing around nowadays, it's really hard to make them fit (plus I'm not a huge fan of the "Oh, everything was better then, there were more marines, more tech, more bunnies, more everything" approach to the fluff).

I'm also starting to wonder if the "one thousand per chapter" figure refers only to straight line Space Marine warriors (assault, tatical, and devastators squads). Support elements (Techmarines, Fleet marines, Chaplains, and possibly scouts) may not be included - perhaps otehr loopholes (veteran but injured marines maybe not included because they are used as trainers, or rise to command positions or some such.)

Well sure, but that still only gets to 1300, maybe 1500 at a maximum. I can't see even the Wolves having more than 2K including specialists, and the Templars maybe 5K spread around.

[Aaron]

Well sure, but that still only gets to 1300, maybe 1500 at a maximum. I can't see even the Wolves having more than 2K including specialists, and the Templars maybe 5K spread around.

I thought I saw something in The Space Wolf Omnibus that stated the Chapter strength was 1200 plus the Blood Claws who aren't attached to a Company yet.