Clinton learns about Texas primaries.

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Clinton learns about Texas primaries.

Post by SirNitram »

Link
Supporters of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton are worried that convoluted delegate rules in Texas could water down the impact of strong support for her among Hispanic voters there, creating a new obstacle for her in the must-win presidential primary contest.

Several top Clinton strategists and fundraisers became alarmed after learning of the state's unusual provisions during a closed-door strategy meeting this month, according to one person who attended.

What Clinton aides discovered is that in certain targeted districts, such as Democratic state Sen. Juan Hinojosa's heavily Hispanic Senate district in the Rio Grande Valley, Clinton could win an overwhelming majority of votes but gain only a small edge in delegates. At the same time, a win in the more urban districts in Dallas and Houston -- where Sen. Barack Obama expects to receive significant support -- could yield three or four times as many delegates.

"What it means is, she could win the popular vote and still lose the race for delegates," Hinojosa said yesterday. "This system does not necessarily represent the opinions of the population, and that is a serious problem."

The disparity in delegate distribution is just one of the unusual aspects of Texas's complex system for apportioning delegates. The scheme has been in use for two decades but is coming under increased scrutiny because the March 4 presidential contest is the first in years that gives the state a potentially decisive voice in choosing the party's nominee.

Under rules described in the 37-page Texas delegate selection plan, two-thirds of the state's 228 delegates will be chosen based on the vote in each of 31 state Senate districts. The remaining delegates will be chosen based in part on the outcome of caucuses held on election night after the polls close.

Texas Democratic Party officials said there is a good reason that some senatorial districts yield two or three delegates while others yield seven or, in one Austin district, eight. The numbers are determined by a formula that is based on the number of voters in each district who cast ballots for Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.) in the 2004 presidential campaign and for Chris Bell, the Democratic nominee for governor in 2006.

The higher the turnout in each district in those years, the more delegates the district will get to select this year, explained Boyd Richie, the state party chairman.

"It's not that anyone's trying to penalize anyone," Richie said. "That's the last thing I want to do. What I want to do is encourage people to come back and vote. We want to have everybody participate."

But Sen. Eddie Lucio Jr., a Clinton supporter who represents the heavily Hispanic southern tip of Texas, said the party's formula fails to account for areas where general-election turnout may have been low but turnout for competitive primaries was much higher.

He said his district, which will yield three delegates on March 4, fits that description. Sen. Mario V. Gallegos Jr., another Clinton supporter whose largely Hispanic district will yield just three delegates, says his follows that pattern as well.

"We usually don't have contested general-election contests here," Gallegos said. "I've always questioned that formula, but I've always been given the same answers: 'That's the rules.' I think we need to look at it. I think there's a disparity there that we need to work out for future races."

He noted that the same turnout-based formula that determines how many delegates emerge from the primary vote will also dictate how many delegates can be won in the caucuses -- further diminishing the influence of voters in those areas.

The caucuses have also given rise to a separate concern, according to several top Texas Democrats interviewed last week. Because the state's Democratic Party has been out of power for years, leaders have struggled to find precinct chairs to oversee all of the 8,000 locations where caucuses will be held.

If it is time for the caucus and there is no precinct chair, party officials decided, the task of overseeing the vote will fall to the first person who collects the packet of materials used to run the caucus.

"The first person in the door picks it up and controls it," said state Sen. Eliot Shapleigh, a Clinton supporter who represents the El Paso area. "So the rules are designed to create a race to the packet. You can imagine what that might look like."

Party officials said most of the duties involved in running the events are routine and are clearly spelled out in the rules provided. But there are instances in which the person chairing the event can influence the outcome, party officials said. For instance, the rules say that only people who vote March 4 can attend that evening's caucus events. If a caucusgoer says he voted but does not show up on the rolls, the organizer has the authority to include or dismiss him.

Hinojosa saw another reason for Clinton to be concerned about the caucuses: The working-class voters who have typically favored her candidacy could be too tired or too busy to vote during the day and then return after 7 p.m. to attend a caucus.

"Anytime you require additional steps, that means extra effort, and that's particularly hard on working families," Hinojosa said.

While Richie said he recognizes those concerns, he does not think Texas will lack enthusiastic voters and caucusgoers.

Early voting, which typically makes up one-third of the ballots cast, will begin Tuesday. That could help reduce crowding at the polls March 4, but Richie says he is not sure what to expect.

"I think all the old models are out the window," he said. "I expect we're going to set a new state record."
First off: Here's me unsurprised Texas has a laughable and undemocratic method of picking delegates.

Perhaps, though, Mrs. Clinton shouldn't have decided her latest 'Firewall' state before she knew the particulars about it's arcane and labyrinthine voting ways. Say, one that didn't come up with it's methods after repeated blows to the skull.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
CaptainChewbacca
Browncoat Wookiee
Posts: 15746
Joined: 2003-05-06 02:36am
Location: Deep beneath Boatmurdered.

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

The caucuses have also given rise to a separate concern, according to several top Texas Democrats interviewed last week. Because the state's Democratic Party has been out of power for years, leaders have struggled to find precinct chairs to oversee all of the 8,000 locations where caucuses will be held.
Okay, I've never lived in a state that caucuses, but isn't that an INSANE number of caucus locations?
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
ImageImage
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18687
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Post by Rogue 9 »

Remember how big Texas is, Chewie. It might not be.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Xisiqomelir
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1757
Joined: 2003-01-16 09:27am
Location: Valuetown
Contact:

Re: Clinton learns about Texas primaries.

Post by Xisiqomelir »

lol@ "convoluted".

It's no more "convoluted" than Electoral College rules which give large, money-earning states like Cali more EC votes than smaller, poorer states like New Mexico. I'm not saying the Electoral College isn't fucked (because, well, it is), but this is hardly unfamiliar territory.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Post by General Zod »

"What it means is, she could win the popular vote and still lose the race for delegates," Hinojosa said yesterday. "This system does not necessarily represent the opinions of the population, and that is a serious problem."
The irony is delicious.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
acesand8s
Padawan Learner
Posts: 307
Joined: 2003-04-14 11:48pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Clinton learns about Texas primaries.

Post by acesand8s »

I knew the Texas primary was weird, but I never heard the specifics and I must say "weird" doesn't do it justice. The thought of assigning delegates based on the previous election results does intrigue me though, especially as a measure to convince people to get off their ass and vote. The image of people racing to grab a packet to chair their local caucus amuses me to no end.
SirNitram wrote:The disparity in delegate distribution is just one of the unusual aspects of Texas's complex system for apportioning delegates. The scheme has been in use for two decades but is coming under increased scrutiny because the March 4 presidential contest is the first in years that gives the state a potentially decisive voice in choosing the party's nominee.
Hopefully that will be one of the benefits coming out of this year's primary season. Since many states are having primaries that actually matter for the first time in many years, people may just start realizing how fucked up the entire system is and the need for reform.

Of course, I thought the same thing would happen with the electoral college after 2000 and look how wrong that was.
"Typical Canadian wimpiness. That's why you have the snowball and we have the H-bomb." Grandpa Simpson
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

The spin control has begun early.

Link
A co-chairman of Hillary's Michigan campaign and has a line that's sure to drive a whole bunch of red state governor's up the wall:

"Superdelegates are not second-class delegates," says Joel Ferguson, who will be a superdelegate if Michigan is seated. "The real second-class delegates are the delegates that are picked in red-state caucuses that are never going to vote Democratic."
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Xisiqomelir
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1757
Joined: 2003-01-16 09:27am
Location: Valuetown
Contact:

Post by Xisiqomelir »

"The real second-class delegates are the delegates that are picked in red-state caucuses that are never going to vote Democratic."
Way to get people on your side, Your Bitchiness. I'm amazed she has so much time to try and start losing the general when she hasn't yet finished the work of losing the nomination.
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

"The real second-class delegates are the delegates that are picked in red-state caucuses that are never going to vote Democratic."
Wow, way to go there, the Obama camp should be running this opn ever letter, pamphlet and website they have.

I would like to think THe dems this year have a shot at ANY State.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Clinton learns about Texas primaries.

Post by Terralthra »

Xisiqomelir wrote:lol@ "convoluted".

It's no more "convoluted" than Electoral College rules which give large, money-earning states like Cali more EC votes than smaller, poorer states like New Mexico. I'm not saying the Electoral College isn't fucked (because, well, it is), but this is hardly unfamiliar territory.
Yeah, how dare California get more votes, it only has nearly twice the population of any other state!

If you actually do the math on the EC vote count as a ratio to population, California has the lowest, not the highest. Smaller states have more fractional EC votes per person than the larger states. This is countered, mostly by the fact that the smallest states in terms of population, like North Dakota and Wyoming, don't get enough votes to be meaningful, as the margin of victory can easily exceed their total.

Additionally, in a smaller state, your individual vote is going to count more for deciding which way those EC votes go, while in a larger state, your vote is more likely to not count at all. Added up, (ignoring political parties for the moment) the EC system actually gives the most power to an individual living in a mid-size state like Washington, Virgina, et al., on a mathematical basis.

Once you factor in the parties that control a good amount of the election system, it's harder to make that statement. There are a decent number of mathematically good states that lean heavily towards one or the other political party. In those states, your vote is less likely to decide anything, so they become very suboptimal.

Although perhaps you're of the opinion that every state should have an equal say, instead of every person having an equal say. If you think that New Mexico and California should have equal influence on the Presidential election regardless of the actual populations involved, well, I don't know what to even say to you, as I start from the basic concept of personal equality in elections, not states. If you start from a different base assumption (state equality in elections), then yes, the EC system does favor states with more people in them.

From my position, the system gives the most power (defined here as statistical probability that the election will come down to your vote) to someone in the mid-range of states.
User avatar
CaptainChewbacca
Browncoat Wookiee
Posts: 15746
Joined: 2003-05-06 02:36am
Location: Deep beneath Boatmurdered.

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Maybe they should change the saying to 'Never underestimate Hilary Clinton's ability to shoot herself in the foot'.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
ImageImage
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

The Electoral College gives more votes to redneck hicks than city-dwellers. That's right, in the U.S., a redneck hick's vote is literally counted more times than that of a city-dweller. All to maintain a laughable premise of pre-New Deal, pre-Civil War federalism.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Xisiqomelir
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1757
Joined: 2003-01-16 09:27am
Location: Valuetown
Contact:

Re: Clinton learns about Texas primaries.

Post by Xisiqomelir »

Terralthra wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:lol@ "convoluted".

It's no more "convoluted" than Electoral College rules which give large, money-earning states like Cali more EC votes than smaller, poorer states like New Mexico. I'm not saying the Electoral College isn't fucked (because, well, it is), but this is hardly unfamiliar territory.
Yeah, how dare California get more votes, it only has nearly twice the population of any other state!
I think you've misread me. I'm criticizing the Clintonistas for feigning shock, not the EC for giving larger states more votes.

My EC criticisms are that it's not proportional representation, as Primus says.
User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Clinton learns about Texas primaries.

Post by Terralthra »

Xisiqomelir wrote:I think you've misread me. I'm criticizing the Clintonistas for feigning shock, not the EC for giving larger states more votes.

My EC criticisms are that it's not proportional representation, as Primus says.
I believe I did misread you then...sorry if I went off on a bit of a rant there. :)
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Feigning shock? Have people bought into the 'calculating Machivelli' so much they can't see this is just another step in the total collapse of her campaign, that's been disintigrating since Obama proved he could compete?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Xisiqomelir
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1757
Joined: 2003-01-16 09:27am
Location: Valuetown
Contact:

Post by Xisiqomelir »

SirNitram wrote:Feigning shock? Have people bought into the 'calculating Machivelli' so much they can't see this is just another step in the total collapse of her campaign, that's been disintigrating since Obama proved he could compete?
I'm simply unable to believe that they really were unaware of how the Texas procedures were organized, a scant 3 weeks before the event. I know her campaign is broke and all, but even so it shouldn't be that hard to come up with a college sophomore or two to read a couple hundred pages of policy documents.

Unless this is e-sarcasm, in which case you've owned me :p
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

A campaign that has suffered, again and again, from a failure to plan for not being inevitable, is not under the 'Assume competence' list for me.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Teebs
Jedi Master
Posts: 1090
Joined: 2006-11-18 10:55am
Location: Europe

Post by Teebs »

I find it incredible hard to believe that her campaign only just realised the Texas electoral college rules are bad for her considering I read about it on politicalbetting.com a British political website a week ago.
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Teebs wrote:I find it incredible hard to believe that her campaign only just realised the Texas electoral college rules are bad for her considering I read about it on politicalbetting.com a British political website a week ago.
This is a campaign which had opened essentialy ZERO field offices in any state that was going to vote after Feb 5th. Literally her entire campaign operaiton was built to end on that day and cruise to victory from a suppossedly unassailable lead at that point. Her Ohio and Texas operation basically only got off the ground within the last two weeks or so. One of the Clinton folks in Texas made a point of saying how they don't care about momentum because they were just tuning in to the race after MD/DC/VA got finished but the problem is that team Clinton didn't tune into the race in Texas until a few days before that.

This is a campaign whcih has literally done as much as possible to shoot itself in the foot while at the same time bitching about "favorable" media coverage for Obama. Honestly organized and forard thinking are not hallmarks of this campaign. That in and of itself should dispel the "I'm better prepared to lead" stock line.

Anyway allocting delegates based on turnout for the previous gneral election's Democratic candidate is admittedly convoluted but also makes a hell of a lot of sense. These districts that have lots of democrats registered but who don't show up to vote democrat in the fall are probably misrepresented under some form of fairness but not all. If the goal of the democratic party is to select the candidate favored by the party then representation should be proportional to traditional levels of support for party candidates to national /statewide office. Essentially these delegates were allocated based upon the size of the loyal democratic base in each county. Now that doesn't say a lot for including independnets or centrist leaning democrats in the mix it does provide the party with a way to promote its own base and that's just how them apples are. If Clinton folks want to bitch about the rules they should have done so back before they entered the contest, pledged not to campaign in Florida, and publicly signed off on Michigan getting no delegates.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Post by General Zod »

CmdrWilkens wrote:If Clinton folks want to bitch about the rules they should have done so back before they entered the contest, pledged not to campaign in Florida, and publicly signed off on Michigan getting no delegates.
Obama's camp should point out her hypocrisy of bitching over the rules in Texas after she made such a stink about winning through super-delegates regardless of the popular vote. That would just totally make my day.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

General Zod wrote:Obama's camp should point out her hypocrisy of bitching over the rules in Texas after she made such a stink about winning through super-delegates regardless of the popular vote. That would just totally make my day.
Wouldn't that destroy his 'Nice Guy' reputation? I actually think it'd be better if he were to be the bigger man.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Post by General Zod »

General Schatten wrote: Wouldn't that destroy his 'Nice Guy' reputation? I actually think it'd be better if he were to be the bigger man.
It doesn't have to. He can use it to bolster his reputation for honesty while simultaneously slamming Clinton if he spun it really well.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Post Reply