Affirmative Action

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-20 08:44pm

What is your opinion on the matter?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-20 08:47pm

Stupid. Fucking. Really.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 08:48pm

It's racism, plain and simple. Even Colin Powell admitted it's discrimination.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-01-20 08:48pm

A racist but sadly necessary means of elevating "people of color" beyond their station because of the ruthless oppression of minorities by stupid white men.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-20 08:50pm

I hate the principle of the thing. I don't think it makes sense, and it allows for discriminatory practices that are inherently unfair and cast doubt upon the admissions of any college or university.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-01-20 08:53pm

We don't have it. Ah! Score one more for my corner of Europe!

It's stupid, btw

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-20 08:58pm

Of course, the really funny thing was when one of the major unis (I think it might have been UCLA, but I don't recall the exact name for sure) revoked its quotas and the percentage of white students actually dropped because of shitloads of Asian straight-A students started pouring in.

The biggest problem is cultural; black kids are being taught by their peers and by popular culture to disrespect and resent "the system", and public education is part of "the system".

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-01-20 09:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:Of course, the really funny thing was when one of the major unis (I think it might have been UCLA, but I don't recall the exact name for sure) revoked its quotas and the percentage of white students actually dropped because of shitloads of Asian straight-A students started pouring in.

The biggest problem is cultural; black kids are being taught by their peers and by popular culture to disrespect and resent "the system", and public education is part of "the system".

You're thinking of CalTech, I think; IIRC, Asian enrollment went up to eighty-four percent of the student body after the school scrapped its affirmative action policy.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-20 09:08pm

Durran Korr wrote:You're thinking of CalTech, I think; IIRC, Asian enrollment went up to eighty-four percent of the student body after the school scrapped its affirmative action policy.

That sounds like the story I read. I just found it hilarious that the (mostly white) people lobbying to get rid of affirmative action ended up being bitten by the law of unintended consequences.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-20 09:17pm

LOL That is pretty damned funny. And yeah, I think it's dumb. You are giving advantages to people because of their race. How is that not racism? Because you're helping one race over another? Oh wait...that is the basic concept of racism...inequality. What would happen if there were laws that gave advantages to white people? Oh wait, we already tried that once. They were called Jim Crow laws.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-01-20 09:23pm

People should be admitted based solely on their ability, not race. Get rid of it.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-20 09:24pm

Affrimintive Auction
We gave them what they wanted

Did it help?

Cauclating the numbers of Poor-Disadvanctages Black from then to now...

No it did not
....

Personaly I look at exactly as they called it orgionaly

Reperations, Before it became AA

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-01-20 09:30pm

I believe it's racism, plain and simple, and thanks to political correctness, it isn't regarded as racism (Because according to them, only white conservatives can be racist). I believe it would help disadvantaged blacks far more if they were encouraged to seek a higher education, instead of giving them a free ride by letting them get a job without experience.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-20 09:35pm

We have to destroy the so-called "black culture" that keeps blacks from performing in society and bring them into the mainstream. Only then we will get more talent from blacks.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-20 09:40pm

It's a sad joke and just some thing to have the PC America feel happy and proud they are helping the 'lesser' people.

Seriously it's both racist and just stupid...I mean literally there are quotas to put a variety of people in higher level psoitions based on race and not ability.

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2003-01-20 09:42pm

I honestly want to know: do we have any black people on this board? I'd like to hear what they think.
Most of my friends are white. A few asian, one black. And the black guy is a dweebish asshat (I once called him that; he insisted he was an assclown).
And yeah, what everybody else is saying here.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-20 10:12pm

I've known a few black guys who were quite intelligent and educated and who didn't carry any of this "black rage" crap around with them. Interestingly enough, they were not born in America, which probably has something to do with it. The stereotype of the black man against the system is so deeply ingrained in American culture that it seems impossible to dislodge.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 10:21pm

One of the interesting stories I found came from UCBerkeley. When they implemented the AA quotas, their African-American enrollment increased 70%. Their African-American freshman dropout rate increased 75%. So tell me, what happened to those 70%? They flunked out. The solution isn't to require colleges to allow minorities, but to have better education in inner-city schools where the underprivileged live. Studies have proven that economics matters more than race in determining academic success. Educate the poor, don't discriminate by race.

BTW, I have to debate this in ethics in a few weeks. Oughta be fun, unless I get assigned to defend AA. And my philosophy prof's just evil enough to do that, too...

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-20 10:25pm

If you want I'll act gangster. As a guy that lived in Brooklyn and best friends were guys like this

I think I'd be able to pull it off.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-20 10:36pm

One thing to keep in mind is that AA was originally conceived as a way of combatting what was obvious and very clear hiring discrimination at the time. There were a lot of companies that simply wouldn't hire blacks under any circumstances.

Debates about AA between competent opponents tend to revolve around each side cherry-picking examples that suit their position. Academic admissions, for example, are an excellent example against AA because there are lots of objective ways to determine whether a student gets accepted, hence it's more difficult to get away with racist policies. Hiring for jobs, on the other hand, is a subjective process, particularly in the case of jobs for which there are few objective standards for hiring (eg- salesmen). White racists, for example, can justify hiring a white over a black on the basis of "interpersonal skills", which are a very vague term which could mean anything from manners to the fact that he simply feels uncomfortable with black people.

The most obvious retort is that "we already have laws against discrimination". But it's not easy to win something like that; it would be a civil case rather than a criminal one, and any company with a large number of employees would fight tooth and nail with its superior resources and high-priced lawyers because it can't afford to lose (the "opening the floodgates" principle would apply because of all the black people who might have applied for jobs and not gotten them). And one should not have to resort to individually initiated legal action to get a fair shot at a job.

So, it's not as cut-and-dried as it seems. There were (and are) valid arguments in favour of AA. The problem is that the idea went way too far; at no point should it have been used to lower standards for certain applicants; the idea of quotas is simply to take companies which have, say, 1,000 employees and say "hey you assholes, you have only 2 blacks working in your whole company; what the fuck" without expecting individual job applicants to launch virtually unwinnable lawsuits over hirings which may be based heavily on subjective criteria.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 10:42pm

Wow...for once I agree with Lord Wong completely. Well written. I would say you should go into politics, but that's the last refuge of the incompetent

. May I have your permission to use that post as part of my debate for either side?

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-01-20 10:45pm

AA was useful once, but its time has passed. End the Racism: BOTH SIDES OF IT!!!

Alan Bolte wrote:Most of my friends are white. A few asian, one black. And the black guy is a dweebish asshat (I once called him that; he insisted he was an assclown).

ROTFLMAO!!!! I see he has a sense of humor LOL!

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-20 10:50pm

So I see no one is going to take me up on my offer for me to act gangster.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-20 11:15pm

The Dark wrote:Wow...for once I agree with Lord Wong completely.

It's a sign of the apocalypse!!!!!!

Well written. I would say you should go into politics, but that's the last refuge of the incompetent .

Unfortunately, my outspoken advocacy of atheism and ass-fucking would probably not go over well with the voters

May I have your permission to use that post as part of my debate for either side?

Sure! Paraphrase or even quote to your heart's content if you wish.

Clone Sergeant · Post by **Clone Sergeant** » 2003-01-21 01:59am

Affirmative action unfortunately is racist, but you have to understand that it is really meant to counteract the fact that a majority of the African American population is poor. The schools they attend are of very. very poor quality. And they cannot afford to send their children to better ones. Without affirmative action, black students who have the intellegence and drive, but are held back by the inadequacies of the system, do not get to go. Without affirmative action far less african american students have a chance to get a degree and get higher paying jobs so they can improve the economic status of the african american communities. A lack of affirmative action and having low quality schools will keep black people living in the urban ghettos for a long time. Meanwhile, the odds are in the neigborhoods with the white majority, the schools are far better and the students there can get into the universities much more easily just because their neighborhood has more money to spend on their schooling and the added bonus that is they are trying to get into a local college their high school's name carries more weight. It comes down to, affirmative action has to stay until the education system on both sides is equal. It sucks, it racist, but that's the price you pay for 200 plus years of slavery, sub-human treatment and institutionalized racism. I assure there are colleges that need it. That would otherwise have almost no black students. And what do you think that does for the black neighborhoods in their area. Fix the schools and give black students an equal chance from the start, and then you can say that affirmative action is unfair.

And as for destroying the "'black culture' that keep blacks from performing in society", that "black culture" is all that kept black people from succumbing to the despair of living in a society where everything about you was considered unclean and inferior. The culture isn't the problem, it's the system that perpetuates their poverty.

BTW, I'm black and I know that I'm extremely lucky to be in college because so many other black men my age are either on the streets in gangs, packing the prisons, or just plain dead.