Ah, the sweet smell of desperation from the Clintons......

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Ah, the sweet smell of desperation from the Clintons......

Post by Glocksman »

Linky
Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign intends to go after delegates whom Barack Obama has already won in the caucuses and primaries if she needs them to win the nomination.

This strategy was confirmed to me by a high-ranking Clinton official on Monday. And I am not talking about superdelegates, those 795 party big shots who are not pledged to anybody. I am talking about getting pledged delegates to switch sides.

What? Isn’t that impossible? A pledged delegate is pledged to a particular candidate and cannot switch, right?

Wrong.

Pledged delegates are not really pledged at all, not even on the first ballot. This has been an open secret in the party for years, but it has never really mattered because there has almost always been a clear victor by the time the convention convened.

But not this time. This time, one candidate may enter the convention leading by just a few pledged delegates, and those delegates may find themselves being promised the sun, moon and stars to switch sides.

“I swear it is not happening now, but as we get closer to the convention, if it is a stalemate, everybody will be going after everybody’s delegates,” a senior Clinton official told me Monday afternoon. “All the rules will be going out the window.”

Rules of good behavior, maybe. But, in fact, the actual rules of the party allow for such switching. The notion that pledged delegates must vote for a certain candidate is, according to the Democratic National Committee, a “myth.”

“Delegates are NOT bound to vote for the candidate they are pledged to at the convention or on the first ballot,” a recent DNC memo states. “A delegate goes to the convention with a signed pledge of support for a particular presidential candidate. At the convention, while it is assumed that the delegate will cast their vote for the candidate they are publicly pledged to, it is not required.”

Clinton spokesman Phil Singer told me Monday he assumes the Obama campaign is going after delegates pledged to Clinton, though a senior Obama aide told me he knew of no such strategy.

But one neutral Democratic operative said to me: “If you are Hillary Clinton, you know you can’t get the nomination just with superdelegates without splitting the party. You have to go after the pledged delegates.”

Winning with superdelegates is potentially party-splitting because it could mean throwing out the choice of the elected delegates and substituting the choice of 795 party big shots.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has warned against it. “I think there is a concern when the public speaks and there is a counter-decision made to that,” she said. “It would be a problem for the party if the verdict would be something different than the public has decided.”

Donna Brazile, who was Al Gore’s campaign manager in 2000 and is a member of the DNC, said recently: “If 795 of my colleagues decide this election, I will quit [the DNC]. I feel very strongly about this.”

On Sunday, Doug Wilder, the mayor of Richmond and a former governor of Virginia, went even further, predicting riots in the streets if the Clinton campaign were to overturn an Obama lead through the use of superdelegates.

“There will be chaos at the convention,” Wilder told Bob Schieffer on “Face the Nation.”

“If you think 1968 was bad, you watch: In 2008, it will be worse.”

But would getting pledged delegates to switch sides be any less controversial? Perhaps not. They were chosen by voters, but they were chosen to back a particular candidate.

And it is unlikely that many people, including the pledged delegates themselves, know that pledged delegates actually can switch.

Nor would it be easy to get them to switch.

If, however, after the April 22 Pennsylvania primary the pledged delegate count looks very close, the Clinton official said, “[both] sides will start working all delegates.”

In other words, Clinton and Obama will have to go after every delegate who is alive and breathing.
What's next, her telling Barack's supporters that 'It's an awful nice looking Black guy you've got there and it'd be a shame if he met the same fate as Dr. King.'?


If she 'wins' the nomination using such underhanded tactics, we'll have President McCain taking office in January and I'm sure he'll thank Hillary for her 'support' in his inauguration speech. :evil:
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Of for Pete's sake, Hillary. Obama's got you this time. It's time for you to back down gracefully so Obama can focus on outdoing McCain.
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Post by Flagg »

We're going to see more and more of this Rovian shit coming forth from this bitch as Ohio and Texas approach. It's getting to the point where if she's elected I might say "fuck it" and throw my vote away to some third party candidate.
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Post by Flagg »

Ghetto Edit: Elected the nominee...
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Post by Vympel »

I'm surprised so many people think Obama will inevitably win the nomination. For my part, I'm depressingly certain that Hillary is going to take the nomination, by hook or crook, pledged delegates, superdelegates, whatever, wherever.

It's just a feeling I have.
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Post by Glocksman »

If HRC actually had significant ideological differences with Obama, I could understand why she'd want to go forward even at the risk of seeing McCain in office.
But her differences with him boil down to details instead of broad ideological issues* and her belief that she's 'entitled' to be President.

Fuck her.
Then again, that might be just what she needs to loosen up. :P

*From her performance so far I haven't seen any principles that she's not willing to sell down the river, so IMHO it's her ego and sense of entitlement.
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Post by Flagg »

Vympel wrote:I'm surprised so many people think Obama will inevitably win the nomination. For my part, I'm depressingly certain that Hillary is going to take the nomination, by hook or crook, pledged delegates, superdelegates, whatever, wherever.

It's just a feeling I have.
I think that in the end, dirty politics may very well prevail. And they've all but taken the gloves off at this point.
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Post by Fire Fly »

I think Bill shouldn't be so worried about Obama "erasing" his legacy when his wife is doing a better job of it.
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Post by Flagg »

Fire Fly wrote:I think Bill shouldn't be so worried about Obama "erasing" his legacy when his wife is doing a better job of it.
He's doing a better job of it himself, making a complete ass of himself as her hatchetman. It's almost unheard of for a former President to be actively campaigning against another member of their party during primaries. IIRC, even Bush 41 didn't stoop so low as to attack W's rivals in the 2000 primary.

And as far as this "legacy" of his goes, it's not that great. I was more inclined to overlook some of the less egregious shit he pulled when he was acting like an elder statesman and not a political hack.
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Post by Glocksman »

Flagg wrote:
Vympel wrote:I'm surprised so many people think Obama will inevitably win the nomination. For my part, I'm depressingly certain that Hillary is going to take the nomination, by hook or crook, pledged delegates, superdelegates, whatever, wherever.

It's just a feeling I have.
I think that in the end, dirty politics may very well prevail. And they've all but taken the gloves off at this point.
She might very well secure the nomination, but in the process of doing so alienate the very voters that she needs in order to win the general election.

All McCain needs is for a bunch of ex-Obama supporters to stay home in November.
This Obama supporter would hold his nose and vote for Hillary if she actually won the nomination via the number of pledged delegates won.

If she wins via 'superdelegates' or 'convincing' some of Obama's pledged delegates to switch sides, fuck it, I'm voting Worker's World or Libertarian.

If I wanted underhanded bullshit, I'd vote for Zombie Nixon. :twisted:
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Post by Flagg »

Glocksman wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Vympel wrote:I'm surprised so many people think Obama will inevitably win the nomination. For my part, I'm depressingly certain that Hillary is going to take the nomination, by hook or crook, pledged delegates, superdelegates, whatever, wherever.

It's just a feeling I have.
I think that in the end, dirty politics may very well prevail. And they've all but taken the gloves off at this point.
She might very well secure the nomination, but in the process of doing so alienate the very voters that she needs in order to win the general election.

All McCain needs is for a bunch of ex-Obama supporters to stay home in November.
This Obama supporter would hold his nose and vote for Hillary if she actually won the nomination via the number of pledged delegates won.

If she wins via 'superdelegates' or 'convincing' some of Obama's pledged delegates to switch sides, fuck it, I'm voting Worker's World or Libertarian.

If I wanted underhanded bullshit, I'd vote for Zombie Nixon. :twisted:
As distasteful as I find the whole winning by super-delegate or turning pledged delegates scenarios, they would still be legitimate ways of winning the nomination. Obama could just as easily pull the same type of situation off and I can't say I'd be at all pissed if he did, because as far as I'm concerned he's the better candidate.

If I do something as stupid as wasting my vote on a third party nominee it will be because she won by getting the invalid Florida and Michigan delegates seated or goes so far beyond the bounds of negative campaigning that she might as well have run for the Republican nomination.
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Post by Glocksman »

I have significant disagreements with all three remaining viable candidates.
My support for Obama is based upon his apparent honesty and transparency compared (I know he's not perfect and I'd be surprised if there wasn't a skeleton or two in his closet) to the other two.

He ain't perfect, but this time I want someone I can respect in office.
Besides, this time around I rank health care, Iraq, and fiscal responsibility pretty high, and HRC's and McCain's past track records of throwing their supporters under the bus to score points with the mushy middle doesn't inspire any confidence in me.
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Post by Surlethe »

Vympel wrote:I'm surprised so many people think Obama will inevitably win the nomination. For my part, I'm depressingly certain that Hillary is going to take the nomination, by hook or crook, pledged delegates, superdelegates, whatever, wherever.

It's just a feeling I have.
I have the same feeling. I want Obama to win the nomination, but the fact the Clintons are steeped in, and have a long history with, the party, as well as their increasingly dirty play, makes me pretty sure that somehow Clinton will take it.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Why do we even have primaries? They've pretty much admitted that officially, they are for our benefit in convincing us that we are involved. Closed loop of power, anyone? The party exists explicitly to further itself as the expense of the people. Its a fucking travesty they call themselves the opposition and progressive.

If Obama does not get the nomination as a result of this kind of shit, I am quiting Democratic and I'm not voting for Hildabeast in the general election. I will campaign AGAINST her.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why do we even have primaries?
To make the democratic process even longer and more drawn-out and absurdly expensive than it already is, so that there will be a greater dependence upon entrenched power brokers and well-heeled funding sources?
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Post by Spin Echo »

Surlethe wrote:
Vympel wrote:I'm surprised so many people think Obama will inevitably win the nomination. For my part, I'm depressingly certain that Hillary is going to take the nomination, by hook or crook, pledged delegates, superdelegates, whatever, wherever.

It's just a feeling I have.
I have the same feeling. I want Obama to win the nomination, but the fact the Clintons are steeped in, and have a long history with, the party, as well as their increasingly dirty play, makes me pretty sure that somehow Clinton will take it.
So I'm not the only one with that feeling.

I had a similar feeling before the 2004 election. I wanted Kerry to win, but deep down in my gut some where, I was pretty certain that Bush would take the election.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I predict that by the Texas primary, Clinton will be sticking brain slugs onto pledged delegates.
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Post by Tanasinn »

I'd sooner vote for a bag of sand than Clinton, so I certainly hope she doesn't manage to dirty politic her way to a nomination. :)
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Post by Edi »

To second DW's thoughts on this travesty of the primaries, their main function seems to be convincing the sheep their opinion actually matters while the entrenched aristocracy makes all the decisions for the foolish peons.
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Post by SirNitram »

Oh man. The wheels have come off and exploded.

By the end of this, the silly 'Everything is calculated' meme will be dead from the sheer desperation. Wow. You're done, Hill. Stick a fork.
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Post by Flagg »

Darth Wong wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why do we even have primaries?
To make the democratic process even longer and more drawn-out and absurdly expensive than it already is, so that there will be a greater dependence upon entrenched power brokers and well-heeled funding sources?
It was originally started to add democracy to the nomination process. It's become this ridiculous spectacle that starts over a year before the conventions, let alone the general election. Usually once a candidate wins the first few 'important' primary states (all of them are almost totally irrelevant in the general election) then the others start dropping out and the voters fall into line and vote for the front runner. It's fucking obscene at this point, really.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

You know, it strikes me as hilarious that the Republican convention process is more democratic than the Democratic one. :roll:
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Post by Jadeite »

It's been denied.
Clinton Spokesperson Rules Out Pursuit Of Obama's Pledged Delegates
By Greg Sargent - February 19, 2008, 10:55AM
Hillary spokesperson Phil Singer is adamantly denying a report this morning in The Politico quoting an anonymous campaign official suggesting that the Clinton campaign will pursue Obama's pledged delegates. Singer sends me this:

We have not, are not and will not pursue the pledged delegates of Barack Obama. It's now time for the Obama campaign to be clear about their intentions.
It's worth noting that the Politico story quotes a Clinton official predicting that both campaigns will pursue the pledged dels. The Obama camp has not yet put out a statement on whether they'll pursue Hillary's pledged dels, though they very likely will soon.

Late Update: The Obama campaign has ruled out this tactic, too. Obama spokesperson Tommy Vietor sends me this:

"We would absolutely not use these sorts of tactics. Senator Obama is focused on winning contests and earning the support of pledged delegates."
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Post by redmagister »

(Clinton's Mind)
yes a lightning denial followed by the quiet implementation of codename jewelry heist. time to take back the whitehouse! take back DC from that poor excuse for a candidate who keeps stealing states that should belong to Hillary!

I really must work on my mind reading skills, there probably is more and most of it is probably in the third person.

what really is going on behind her creepily shiny face?
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Post by Turin »

Notice the immediate turnaround of "Obama hasn't promised not to do the dirty thing we said we were going to do, but now aren't!" Uh, maybe because he wasn't planning on playing dirty pool to begin with?
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