Got punk?

Machine Ghost · Post by **Machine Ghost** » 2008-02-18 07:05pm

I was wondering what some good -punk novels or series are. Cyberpunk, Steampunk, and Dieselpunk are all good, I have yet to read/see any good biopunk, but that might be interesting too.

I have just finished Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson, which was postcyberpunk with a little bit of steampunk.

I have also read plenty of Gibson, but not Difference Engine, yet.

Any suggestions?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-02-18 07:14pm

Difference Engine is all steam and very little punk. Fun read, though.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-02-18 07:16pm

Read Difference Engine and walk away from the genre.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-02-18 08:23pm

... or you could ignore Hateful McLikesnothingwhatsoever and pick up China Mieville's excellent Perdido Street Station as well. If that sits well with you, he's got another two books, The Scar and Iron Council, which are both very good. I'd hazard saying that in some ways, Mieville's work is better than the Difference Engine- it's sumptuously written and a little more readable.

Machine Ghost · Post by **Machine Ghost** » 2008-02-18 08:32pm

I liked the writing in Gibson's cyberpunk series (Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive), but I guess writing cyberpunk is different from steampunk.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2008-02-18 08:40pm

Thirdfain wrote:... or you could ignore Hateful McLikesnothingwhatsoever and pick up China Mieville's excellent Perdido Street Station as well. If that sits well with you, he's got another two books, The Scar and Iron Council, which are both very good. I'd hazard saying that in some ways, Mieville's work is better than the Difference Engine- it's sumptuously written and a little more readable.

Also, King Rat. Which is more Drum n Bass than Punk. Good read though.

Gullible Jones · Post by **Gullible Jones** » 2008-02-18 09:30pm

I'll second the Mieville recommendation, though I honestly never thought of Mieville as "punk".

(Perdido Street Station = awesome. The Scar = even more awesome, but read Perdido first. Iron Council, on the other hand, I just couldn't get into - I think the time compression and drop in the detail level hurt it, but some people give it really good reviews, so see how you like it.)

As for "biopunk"... You know, I don't think I've heard that term used before. I think Jeff Vandermeer's Veniss Underground might qualify though, as well as the related stories on InfinityPlus, and maybe Finch when it comes out.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-02-18 11:44pm

Thirdfain wrote:... or you could ignore Hateful McLikesnothingwhatsoever and pick up China Mieville's excellent Perdido Street Station as well. If that sits well with you, he's got another two books, The Scar and Iron Council, which are both very good. I'd hazard saying that in some ways, Mieville's work is better than the Difference Engine- it's sumptuously written and a little more readable.

Sorry, DE is the only 'cyberpunk' (stupidest term ever) book I've read that doesn't make me want to throw it away in disgust. Gibson's other work is overly dense rubbish, and DE is at least an interesting idea (well, more interesting than most 'cyberpunk' excuses for nerd-chic anyway). I've never read Mieville, but I don't need to launch baseless attacks on others to admit that. LoL StArK hAtEs 4llz!22

It isn't my fault Gibson is horribly overrated. Sorry.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-02-18 11:48pm

A bit of poking shows that Gullible Jones is right. Mieville doesn't seem very 'cyberpunk': it sounds no more 'cyberpunk' than Greg Egan's novels, which are interesting. Whoops, I forgot 'cyberpunk' can be stretched to include almost anything involving a business and dirty people.

Gullible Jones · Post by **Gullible Jones** » 2008-02-19 12:14am

I'll have to agree that Gibson is horribly overrated, but he can at least be entertaining. I mean, Neuromancer may not have deserved three awards. but it I enjoyed reading it.

(I can't say the same of Mona Lisa Overdrive though. Weak plot, weak characters, and some lame excuse for Molly to beat up a bunch of Yakuza thugs... Pretty dumb.)

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-02-19 06:23pm

I was wondering what some good -punk novels or series are. Cyberpunk, Steampunk, and Dieselpunk are all good, I have yet to read/see any good biopunk, but that might be interesting too.

That's from the OP. And Mieville is definitely steampunk. Evil corporations, AIs, oppressive governments, and, yeah, dirty people.

Christ, you just told this kid to throw away an entire genre, one which you clearly haven't read into much. In a book suggestion thread, that's about as useful as an asshole right on your elbow. And I didn't comment one way or another with regards to how overrated Gibson is; why did you even bring that up? Are you going out of your way to reinforce your reputation or something?

Machine Ghost · Post by **Machine Ghost** » 2008-02-19 06:32pm

Stark wrote:Whoops, I forgot 'cyberpunk' can be stretched to include almost anything involving a business and dirty people.

Don't forget the neon and leather. And the ubiquitous "Is that a real (insert common animal)?!?" lines.

IMO, I like cyberpunk and Gibson. The genre is kind of like pulp fiction, but with a few interesting ideas.

If you looking for good post-cyberpunk try Diamond Age, which was very good. Apparently Neal Stephenson also wrote cyberpunk Snow Crash, but I haven't read it yet.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-02-19 07:18pm

I want you to explain the term 'post-cyberpunk' in a way that isn't incredibly lame. Think of it as a take-home assignment.

Is it... Cyber-Green Day as opposed to Cyber-Sex Pistols?

Neal Stephenson apparently took the dense, pretentious writing of Gibson as a challenge. I don't think he got there, but it's still 'good idea, fucking horrible execution'.

Sadbox wrote:That's from the OP. And Mieville is definitely steampunk. Evil corporations, AIs, oppressive governments, and, yeah, dirty people.

Christ, you just told this kid to throw away an entire genre, one which you clearly haven't read into much. In a book suggestion thread, that's about as useful as an asshole right on your elbow. And I didn't comment one way or another with regards to how overrated Gibson is; why did you even bring that up? Are you going out of your way to reinforce your reputation or something?

So, I say 'cyberpunk is rubbish' and you disprove this by mentioning a bunch of books that *aren't* 'cyberpunk'? DE was already on his list and isn't a pile of poo, so he should definately read that.

All you have to realise to ignore genres is that a) they're incredibly small and b) the odds of finding a good example of it are extraordinarily slim. All the 'mass-market' 'cyberpunk' I've ever read has been utter garbage. Now this guy *liked* Gibson's overwrought style, so doubtless he'll enjoy the genre, but how was *I* to know he had such a high tolerance for shit? Anyone who can read a Neal Stephenson novel without a case of the eye-rollies is either a really serious nerd or has massive shitfilters.

It's a sad reflection on the genre that while Pedido Street Station sounds very interesting, the other books devolve into Every Lame-Punk Plot Ever. But I forgot, if I haven't read your Pet Author I clearly don't know anything and don't deserve an opinon!

Machine Ghost · Post by **Machine Ghost** » 2008-02-19 07:32pm

Cyberpunk vs. Post cyberpunk you say... well let me explain.

In cyberpunk one of the main themes is the heavy changes on society caused by technology. Cyberpunk characters are alienated loners: petty criminals, hitmen, prostitutes.

In postcyberpunk, the radical changes of cyberpunk have become the norm. Society returns to a state of relative peace. Postcyberpunk characters are working members of society: businessmen, police officers (not crocked ones), engineers, leaders.

Before you write off a genre and its subgenres, try and give it a deeper look. I will admit some cyberpunk is pretty stupid, but some really pull off the social commentary stuff pretty well.

What about Dieselpunk? I've seen Sky Captain and played Crimson Skies. But have you heard of any good ones?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-02-19 08:00pm

So post-cyberpunk is just futurist fiction? In my experience, the only thing separating most 'cyberpunk' from regular futurist stuff is the social/economic/personal changes going on, the clash of the old and the new etc. For instance, Egan's stuff isn't 'cyberpunk' at all, despite it's futurist and social change approach, because it lacks the nerd-service tone, in my opinion anyway. Neal Stephenson is all about nerd-service.

Calling Crimson Skies 'dieselpunk' makes me want to cry. When did book nerds turn into music nerds, inventing new tiny genres for every type of story? Oh, this one is DIESELpunk because it's alt-history with DIESEL engines! This one is STEAMpunk because it's alt-history with STEAM spaceships! Don't even get me started on how the term 'cyberpunk' has never meant anything, and all these terms sound fucking retarded.

I can't think of any 30s pulp stuff that isn't Crimson Skies related off the top of my head, although much 'futuristic' scifi is in the same vein (like Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers (XXV and original, not the show).

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-02-19 08:16pm

Is Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen steampunk? Because that and the Chaos Engine game are what I think of when I hear the phrase. Aside from the art being a bit annoying, they're good stories, especially if you're somewhat familiar with the backgrounds of the various storylines.

And I really do not see anything "punk" in Crimson Skies any more than I do in Indiana Jones or James Bond. My understanding of cyberpunk is that it's basically a "corrupted" view of the future with nihilistic individualism akin to that of punk in the 80s but with cyborgs and shit. Basically, Syndicate on the Amiga all those years ago. Sort of like what I expected Ghost in the Shell to be like before I found out that it was boring.

CaptHawkeye · Post by **CaptHawkeye** » 2008-02-19 08:18pm

What about Dieselpunk? I've seen Sky Captain and played Crimson Skies. But have you heard of any good ones?

Jesus Christ. Since when the hell is Crimson Skies "dieselpunk". Better yet, since when is their a "dieselpunk"?

Are they just inventing these terms willy nilly these days? They must be. I've heard "Atomicpunk" is the name for 60's era alt-histories now, not that it's any less stupid. Couldn't it just be "fantasy"? Nah, someone decided that the names for genres as we know them are old fashioned. Time to create a whole bunch of obscure names for this and pass if off as totally original? Hint: Neal Stephenson is not going to looked back on 500 years into the future as a modern Shakespeare.

Thirdfain wrote: ... or you could ignore Hateful McLikesnothingwhatsoever and pick up China Mieville's excellent Perdido Street Station as well.

Oh no, someone doesn't like my pillar of media loev. Boo hoo.

Machine Ghost · Post by **Machine Ghost** » 2008-02-19 08:40pm

I'm sorry I may be using the terms wrong.

I thought dieselpunk was WW2 era alternate history, like Crimson Skies. But I guess I am using the term wrong.

Ok, so I looked it up on Wiki, and found a cool word that sums up the whole question:

Retro-futurism- basically anything with a future that could have been. Alternate history, but a "bit" further out.

Know of anything good like that?

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-02-19 09:08pm

Go read Karl Schroeder's Sun of Suns. It's not any sort of alternate history, but it is very interesting.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2008-02-19 09:13pm

CaptHawkeye wrote:Better yet, since when is their a "dieselpunk"?

As far as i know there are several "punk" genres.

Cyberpunk
Post-Cyberpunk
Cypherpunk (you got mere there...)
Biopunk (genetic engineering 4TW!!!)
Splatterpunk (neo-horror, or so i'm told)
Dieselpunk (Sky Captain, not Crimson Skies)
Sandelpunk (bronze age)
Clockpunk (yes...clockwork)
Stonepunk (the Flintstones)

I am NOT making any of those up. I'm dead fucking serious.

Personally, i don't mind a few smaller sub-genres, but most of those are rediculous. I can understand specific genres such as Cyberpunk or Steampunk, where you have well defined "rules" of a sort. Even Biopunk. But most of the rest are just stupid.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-02-19 09:16pm

Quite frankly, 'gaslamp' is probably a better term than steampunk.

Machine Ghost · Post by **Machine Ghost** » 2008-02-19 09:20pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:
Personally, i don't mind a few smaller sub-genres, but most of those are rediculous. I can understand specific genres such as Cyberpunk or Steampunk, where you have well defined "rules" of a sort. Even Biopunk. But most of the rest are just stupid.

Yeah, your probably right. But I guess it really comes down to style. Although I am a fan of cyber- and steampunk, I have never heard of half of those.

Dieselpunk (Sky Captain, not Crimson Skies)

Whatever Crimson Skies is, more of that, if you know of anything.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-02-19 09:24pm

Zuul wrote:Is Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen steampunk? Because that and the Chaos Engine game are what I think of when I hear the phrase. Aside from the art being a bit annoying, they're good stories, especially if you're somewhat familiar with the backgrounds of the various storylines.

And I really do not see anything "punk" in Crimson Skies any more than I do in Indiana Jones or James Bond. My understanding of cyberpunk is that it's basically a "corrupted" view of the future with nihilistic individualism akin to that of punk in the 80s but with cyborgs and shit. Basically, Syndicate on the Amiga all those years ago. Sort of like what I expected Ghost in the Shell to be like before I found out that it was boring.

The 'punk' part of the terms is meaningless. It's just nerds hoping to be relevant. 'Steampunk' is just 'fantasy with steam-stuff'. 'Dieselpunk' is just 'fantasy with diesel-stuff'. 'Cyberpunk' is just 'scifi but dirty and with corporations'. People who use '-punk' terms just make me roll my eyes.

As Ford says, gaslamp is probably a better term. Even 'retro-futurist' is better than 'lol punk lol'.

'Tech noir' actually describes 'cyberpunk' better than 'cyberpunk' does.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-02-19 09:31pm

Stark wrote: Even 'retro-futurist' is better than 'lol punk lol'.

'Retro-futurist' is probably the best, as it allows you to embrace several technologies outiside of steam for the setting; things like hideously impossible clockwork as well as just steam engines. Essentially advanced technology as backwards as you can make it look.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2008-02-19 09:33pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Sandelpunk (bronze age)

What the hell?

The real name for "Sandalpunk" is the Sword and Sandal genre.

Gaslamp is definitely a better term than steampunk, and more accurate, since there isn't anything "punk" about the subgenre ("punk" in this case denoting a strong theme of nihilism, which actually was a pretty big component of real cyberpunk).

I think most of these riffraff terms come from geek readers not even understanding what genuinely qualifies as cyberpunk, and assume it's just anything in a gritty heavily urbanized future. Which is then how you get yahoos calling stuff like Blade Runner, Akira, and The Matrix cypberpunk when they're nothing of the sort.

Nevermind that in my opinion, Cyberpunk as a real science fiction genre was pretty much killed by the emergence of the World Wide Web.