Car that runs on Air to go on Sale next year in India

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2008-02-20 06:06pm

New Car Powered By Air

Feb 19 2008 By John Ferguson

WE'VE had petrol, diesel, vegetable oil, electric and solar cars - now get ready for the motor powered by fresh air.

An Indian car firm have joined forces with a French inventor to develop the OneCAT - a five-seater driven by compressed air stored in carbon-fibre tanks.

It will cost around £2500 and could be launched in India by Tata Motors in the next year.

The tanks, which are built into the chassis, can be filled with air from a compressor in just three minutes.

For longer journeys, the air driving the pistons can be boosted by a conventional fuel engine.

Inventor Guy Negre claims the OneCAT will do the equivalent of 120mpg and reckons it will be one of the safest cars on the road.

Motorists outside of India seeking to try out the OneCAT will have to wait because Tata, who are the sole company licensed to sell it, are only producing the car for the domestic market.

Tata unveiled the world's cheapest motor last month - the £1277 Nano.

And another article

A car that runs on air and releases no pollutants into the atmosphere at low speeds could be on sale in India as soon as this year.

The three-seat fibreglass OneCAT weighs only 350kg (770lb) and is expected to be priced at about £2,500. The engine technology is backed by Tata, the Indian conglomerate that last month unveiled the world’s cheapest car, the £1,250 Nano.

Refuelling involves topping up on compressed air, which is used to power the OneCAT’s piston engine. In a couple of minutes - and at a cost of as little as £1 - the vehicle is ready to travel another 200 to 300 kilometres (125 to 185 miles), its inventors said.

The vehicle, which burns small amounts of conventional fuels at higher speeds, has been developed by Moteur Development International (MDI), a French-based, family owned group that has been working on an “air car” for the past decade. “The engine is efficient, cost-effective, scalable and capable of other applications, like power generation,” a spokesman said.

Vivek Chattopadhyaya, of the Delhi-based Centre for Science and Environment, said: “What counts is how much energy all the processes involved require - from manufacturing the car to compressing the air.”

Mass production moved a step closer last year when MDI agreed a partnership with Tata, under which the companies pledged to refine the technology. The Indian group said that the system may represent “the ultimate environ-ment-friendly engine” and is studying its commercial feasibility.

MDI, whose engine is competing with rival technologies that range from electric vehicles and biofuels to hybrid engines and hydrogen-based fuel cells, has said that its first mass-market model could go on sale this year.

Worldwide sales of “zero emission” cars are languishing in the thousands, but with oil prices running at record levels, energy efficiency has become a watchword across the car industry.

According to MDI, its fleet includes cars that could cover 100 kilometres for about 60p. A full tank of compressed air would last for up to ten hours. A top speed of about 70 miles an hour has been claimed. An oil change should be necessary only every 30,000 miles or more and the air expelled from the engine will be clean and cold and can be used in the air conditioning unit.

Vital statistics
Fuel: Compressed air (some conventional fuel at higher speeds)
Cost of refuelling: about £1
Range: 200km to 300km (a full tank should last up to ten hours)
Servicing: OIl change about every 30,000 miles
Seats: Three
Weight: 350kg
Price: about £2,500

I might have to take a trip to India in a year or two....

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2008-02-20 06:29pm

When it's in my garage, I'll truly believe it.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 07:15pm

That actually sounds like a plausible concept (although the amount of compressed air necessary to achieve that kind of energy potential sounds scary), but you still obviously need abundant energy sources from which to do the work of compressing that air in the first place.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 07:54pm

Well, having never even thought of this concept before, I did some googling around on the idea.

Doing some reading and watching some videos, it seems this technology is actually been in devolopment for a long time (air compression obviously isn't a new idea after all), and there's some rather ingenious engines designs that are practically unbelievably small and powerful. One designer has a air compression engine that doesn't even require oil for lubricant because the air itself acts as such.

One site even stated that one company is looking into a air compression fuel engine that would allow a driver to travel...get this...4500 kilometers on a single tank.

Frankly, what I was reading and watching seemed way too good to be true, and obviously you still need that energy source to compress the air in the first place.

Nevertheless, this is something I'm going to watch very intently for the next while, since it's seems pretty convincing so far...

TimothyC · Post by **TimothyC** » 2008-02-20 08:15pm

Someone has been reading to much Draka.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 08:18pm

MariusRoi wrote:Someone has been reading to much Draka.

Care to elaborate? Personally, I very much want to hear intelligent criticisms, not obscure bullshit ones.

TimothyC · Post by **TimothyC** » 2008-02-20 08:28pm

Bubble Boy wrote:
MariusRoi wrote:Someone has been reading to much Draka.
Care to elaborate? Personally, I very much want to hear intelligent criticisms, not obscure bullshit ones.

Draka is a Fiction Series by S. M. Stirling (and quite badly done at that), and they tend to use Compressed Air for just about everything. I wasn't criticizing the concept, just making a reference.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 08:39pm

MariusRoi wrote:
Bubble Boy wrote:
MariusRoi wrote:Someone has been reading to much Draka.
Care to elaborate? Personally, I very much want to hear intelligent criticisms, not obscure bullshit ones.
Draka is a Fiction Series by S. M. Stirling (and quite badly done at that), and they tend to use Compressed Air for just about everything. I wasn't criticizing the concept, just making a reference.

Ah, I see. My mistake there then and I apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I guess you could say I'm waiting for the criticisms that will prove this isn't actually a viable concept or future system of personal transport.

Previously I was banking for a hydrogen based society, yet the effort of transforming our current oil based societies into such is a nightmare scenario. Problems like reconfiguring our current fuel system setup, producing hydrogen and transporting it are incredible.

Yet that's irrelevent when compared to air compression power when you're literally surrounded by 'fuel' and simply need to find energy to compress it. You've skipped many troublesome steps, and now the idea of power plants utilizing safe and renewable energy sources to provide air compression power (or just power itself for air compression stations) sounds a hell of a lot more practical and doable in the near future.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-02-20 08:43pm

I pulled out my physics textbook and crunched some numbers after a quick google search for specs on the air cars. Various sources say the OneCAT has 340L tank at 4350psi, which gives around 40MJ of energy. Compare that to the 2GJ or so in a 15 gallon tank of gasoline.

And now for the fun part, it's called road horsepower, or, how much power is needed to get a car to cruise at highway speed, generally 60-70mph. Car & Driver used to publish this spec in their car test reports, even the most efficient cars would be at around 15-20 horsepower at highway speed. Let's give the aircar 10hp to tip things in its favour. If that's the case, it can cruise for 1.5 hours (15 horsepower hours = 40MJ) before running out of air, giving a range of 90-105 miles, assuming 100% efficiency. In real life, air will cool dramatically when expanded through an engine, cooler temperature=less expansion, therefore less power. I never took thermodynamics so I don't know how to calculate the numbers for that. Then there's frictional losses as well, pulling numbers out of my ass I'd ballpark overall losses at around 25%, for a range of 65-80 miles.

In other words, it ain't gonna be good for much other than city driving.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-02-20 08:46pm

The problem with this whole idea is that air compression wastes tremendous amounts of energy as heat. Also, that carbon fiber tanks will tend to fail in both a catastrophic manner, and pretty much without warning. Composites are great for strength, but suck for maintenance. You can have a crack form in a subsurface layer, and be undetected until the part breaks. Finding the crack requires fairly advanced equipment.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 08:49pm

I found this article about one of the seemingly most promising air compression engines for those interested.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-02-20 08:51pm

Well, if it works as said, then it would be good for people who live in cities and need a car to haul groceries and go to work. In other words, it's a glorified golf cart. However, golf carts are all some people really need.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 09:00pm

aerius wrote:I pulled out my physics textbook and crunched some numbers after a quick google search for specs on the air cars. Various sources say the OneCAT has 340L tank at 4350psi, which gives around 40MJ of energy. Compare that to the 2GJ or so in a 15 gallon tank of gasoline.

And now for the fun part, it's called road horsepower, or, how much power is needed to get a car to cruise at highway speed, generally 60-70mph. Car & Driver used to publish this spec in their car test reports, even the most efficient cars would be at around 15-20 horsepower at highway speed. Let's give the aircar 10hp to tip things in its favour. If that's the case, it can cruise for 1.5 hours (15 horsepower hours = 40MJ) before running out of air, giving a range of 90-105 miles, assuming 100% efficiency. In real life, air will cool dramatically when expanded through an engine, cooler temperature=less expansion, therefore less power. I never took thermodynamics so I don't know how to calculate the numbers for that. Then there's frictional losses as well, pulling numbers out of my ass I'd ballpark overall losses at around 25%, for a range of 65-80 miles.

Actually, from what I've been reading so far, your efficiency loss estimate for these proposed engines is grossly inaccurate. Apparently the efficiency ratings are almost unbelievable high because of the weight saved in the design of the engines, removing many components that reduce efficiency. Apparently the air has a almost direct transfer of energy to the turning of the wheels.

Furthermore the fuel used in your typical combustion engines is considered to be using at best 16% of the total energy available for actual travel, which is a pretty pathetic. Since most of that energy is lost in heat and just moving components of the engine itself.

In other words, it ain't gonna be good for much other than city driving.

Unless I'm reading nothing but bullshit, the models they're talking about have a 200-300 kilometer range.

Combine these technologies with systems like brakes that actually gain back energy from the process of braking (as opposed to your conventional vehicles where it's just wasted), and this looks even more promising.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 09:03pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, if it works as said, then it would be good for people who live in cities and need a car to haul groceries and go to work. In other words, it's a glorified golf cart. However, golf carts are all some people really need.

Interestingly enough, Morgado claims to have achieved a power to weight ratio forty times better than conventional motors, in the article I just linked previously. And they seem to think it would have applications from everything to large trucks to aircraft as well.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-02-20 09:26pm

The first time one of these things gets rear-ended, the tank will explode like a bomb.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 09:31pm

Darth Wong wrote:The first time one of these things gets rear-ended, the tank will explode like a bomb.

According to the articles, the storage tanks are made of carbon or glass fibre tanks which won't explode, but at worst rip open.

Of course, with a full tank of compressed air that's one fucking hell of a sudden amount of force being applied to the vehicle. One could easily imagine what would happen to a vehicle if that force were directed down at the time...

I'd looking to read up more on their safety concerns and solutions to this obvious problem.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-02-20 09:35pm

Bubble Boy wrote:Unless I'm reading nothing but bullshit, the models they're talking about have a 200-300 kilometer range.

Combine these technologies with systems like brakes that actually gain back energy from the process of braking (as opposed to your conventional vehicles where it's just wasted), and this looks even more promising.

Even with 100% efficiency it's not going to go 200-300km unless there's a strong tailwind or the car's going at a speed where aerodynamic drag is minimal, in other words, tooling along at around 40-50km/h. It's not going to go further than 160km at highway speed unless it looks like this, which it doesn't.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2008-02-20 09:42pm

Bubble Boy wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The first time one of these things gets rear-ended, the tank will explode like a bomb.
According to the articles, the storage tanks are made of carbon or glass fibre tanks which won't explode, but at worst rip open.

Of course, with a full tank of compressed air that's one fucking hell of a sudden amount of force being applied to the vehicle. One could easily imagine what would happen to a vehicle if that force were directed down at the time...

I'd looking to read up more on their safety concerns and solutions to this obvious problem.

That's the first thing I thought. Any amount of practical compressed air is going to be... well. Potentially quite nasty. Even if the tanks themselves don't explosively release from being punctured, that much compressed air suddenly unloading can't be good for other parts of the car, or foreign objects nearby.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 09:46pm

Now I'm quite curious as to how carbon fibre tanks react to high speed impacts, to get a better idea of what would happen in such a case.

Going to have to use more google fu!

TimothyC · Post by **TimothyC** » 2008-02-20 10:12pm

Bubble Boy wrote:According to the articles, the storage tanks are made of carbon or glass fibre tanks which won't explode, but at worst rip open.

Two Questions?

Have you ever seen what carbon fiber does when it fails? It (as others in this thread have pointed out) fails catastrophically and without warning.

Have you seen what just 3000 PSI will do to a quarter inch thick steel cylinder when said cylinder fails? I have and it isn't something that you want to be near without a whole lot of protection.

Put the two together, and well, Mike is right. I just hope I get to see a video of the crash test.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 10:45pm

MariusRoi wrote:
Bubble Boy wrote:According to the articles, the storage tanks are made of carbon or glass fibre tanks which won't explode, but at worst rip open.
Two Questions?

Have you ever seen what carbon fiber does when it fails? It (as others in this thread have pointed out) fails catastrophically and without warning.

Have you seen what just 3000 PSI will do to a quarter inch thick steel cylinder when said cylinder fails? I have and it isn't something that you want to be near without a whole lot of protection.

Put the two together, and well, Mike is right. I just hope I get to see a video of the crash test.

Makes one wonder if they thought about having large numbers of smaller tanks with significantly lower pressure for precisely that reason.

What about ten tanks instead of one, with a tenth of the volume and a tenth of the overall pressure? If one of them suddenly ruptured, you're dealing with far less of a problem.

Unless I'm missing something here...does the system only work with one four thousand psi tank, or could it work with ten tanks at four hundred psi each?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-02-20 10:51pm

Why are you assuming that any problems must have been solved? One of the big concerns about propane-powered cars was that they might burst into flames if hit the wrong way, and many people simply assumed that they must have found some way to handle that. Nope, every now and then a propane-powered fleet car bursts into flames on our highways when it's hit the wrong way. Certain government or taxi fleets used them for a while around here.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-02-20 11:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:Why are you assuming that any problems must have been solved?

Excuse me, but were did I assert any such thing?

One of the big concerns about propane-powered cars was that they might burst into flames if hit the wrong way, and many people simply assumed that they must have found some way to handle that. Nope, every now and then a propane-powered fleet car bursts into flames on our highways when it's hit the wrong way. Certain government or taxi fleets used them for a while around here.

...I didn't propose what might be a solution because I thought it was solved already.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-02-20 11:47pm

Bubble Boy wrote:Makes one wonder if they thought about having large numbers of smaller tanks with significantly lower pressure for precisely that reason.

What about ten tanks instead of one, with a tenth of the volume and a tenth of the overall pressure? If one of them suddenly ruptured, you're dealing with far less of a problem.

Unless I'm missing something here...does the system only work with one four thousand psi tank, or could it work with ten tanks at four hundred psi each?

If you have 10 tanks, with a tenth the volume and pressure, you end up with a tenth the range. If they're full pressure, then the failure of any one of them will likely cause the rest to fail as well. And you're still dealing with what is effectively a MBT round going off inside the car.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2008-02-20 11:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:The first time one of these things gets rear-ended, the tank will explode like a bomb.

The whole car weighs 770lb pounds, the first time it gets hit anywhere by anything its going to crush like a tin can. You'd have to be insane to drive it in anything like normal western traffic; I’d assume its really only intended for use in Indian cities with constant gridlock.