Horus Heresy: Legion - revelations (big big spoilers)

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2008-02-24 02:25pm

Rather than leave them in little text I thought I'd just start a new spoiler thread for Legion instead.

Spoiler

Gap

For

Accidental

Clicks

The first of 2 revelations is that Alpharius, Primach of the Alpha Legion, is actually 2 identical people, Alpahrius and Omegon. As worded in the book "Alone among the genetic sons of the Terran Emperor, you are the only twins. You are both the primach, one soul in two vessles". This is kept secret and Alpharius and Omegon take it in turns to be "Alpharius" when there is need for a public appearence.
This goes some way to explaining how the Alpha Legion were to continue operating at peak performance after the death of "Alpharius" at the hands of Gulliman.
One question remaining is whether they were twins 'at birth' or whether one was created when the primachs were cast into the warp? The "one soul" bit seems to indicate the warp, but if they were twins 'at birth', it would explain one of the missing legions.
On the subject of missing legions one of the characters remarks about the Alpha Legion:
"I believe their operation and conduct should be reported to the Council of Terra, pending censure or dissolution. It wouldn't be the first time a Legion Astartes has overstepped the mark after all. They must be stopped and held accountable before they become too powerful".
There's a good chance he's talking about the punishment of the World Eaters, Thousand Sons or the Night Lords, but the "dissolution" comment does leave the door open.

The second big revelation is The Cabal's (a collective of old species who can predict the future, formost being the Eldar) vision of the future. They forsee humanity as either being the greatest weapon against CHaos, or the greatest weapon for Chaos, the deciding factor being the outcome of the Horus Heresy.
If Horus wins, then within a few hundred years humanity will be driven to extinction by war and Chaos will lose it's greatest tool for ever.
If Horus loses, then humanity continues, but begins to stagnate and will eventually allow chaos to seep into it and take it over leading to the doom of the rest of the galaxy.
They chose to try and recruit the Alpha Legion to their needs as the AL are the only astartes legion to be extremely forward thinking and not blindly loyal to the Emperor enough to let it stop them doing what is necessary.
They show the vision to Alpharius and Omegon to force them into making a decision:
- Fight for the Emperor, win the Heresy but doom the galaxy.
- Or fight for Horus so that the Emperor's ultimate goal (defeating Chaos) can be achieved, though at the cost of humanity.

The Cabal want them to fight for Horus as they believe that the Alpha Legion is skilled enough to tip the balance in his favour, and it would appear that the Alpha Legion accepted this.
In my opinion this makes Fulgrim's tragic story pale in comparison.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-02-24 03:23pm

That's awesome; finally a good reason to join the baddies! I'll definitely be getting this one.

KlavoHunter · Post by **KlavoHunter** » 2008-02-24 06:39pm

Holy shit, there's two of him? Crazy.

That clears up the issue of ONE of the two missing Primarch-children, how about the last of them?

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2008-02-24 06:44pm

So, per the Cabal's vision, the entire galaxy is now fucked right?

I mean I knew that WH40K had a grim ending ahead of it, but I guess I was still holding out hope that their might be a "good" ending to the storyline.

Assuming of course there ever is and ending.

KlavoHunter · Post by **KlavoHunter** » 2008-02-24 07:34pm

Bah, they're just looking at the most likely future caused by an Imperial victory in the heresy. There's that fraction-of-a-percent chance that the Emperor is reborn as a god and destroys Chaos for all time instead.

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2008-02-24 07:38pm

KlavoHunter wrote:Bah, they're just looking at the most likely future caused by an Imperial victory in the heresy. There's that fraction-of-a-percent chance that the Emperor is reborn as a god and destroys Chaos for all time instead.

Which really isn't that good of an outcome anyways, since the Emperor is a genocidal tyrant who makes Hitler look like a fluffy bunny.

I'm talking about an *actual* good ending.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2008-02-24 08:02pm

And assuming of course that their prophecy itself was totally correct, not warp-tainted, and accounted fully for things like the Necrons. Their great warding would defeat Chaos too, but you can't say that's a totally "good" ending.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2008-02-24 10:40pm

2000AD wrote:If Horus wins, then within a few hundred years humanity will be driven to extinction by war and Chaos will lose it's greatest tool for ever.
If Horus loses, then humanity continues, but begins to stagnate and will eventually allow chaos to seep into it and take it over leading to the doom of the rest of the galaxy.
They chose to try and recruit the Alpha Legion to their needs as the AL are the only astartes legion to be extremely forward thinking and not blindly loyal to the Emperor enough to let it stop them doing what is necessary.

I can't help but see the comparisons between this and Kain's decision in the Legacy of Kain series.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2008-02-25 01:28am

Wow... This sounds really lame.

"Omegon"? Sigh.

Twin primarchs who take turns filling in for each other being evil... and one of them is not named Calvin? Let me guess, they're identical twins all the way, but where one is steadfast and uptight, the other is a party dude loose cannon? Like Patty Duke, do hot dogs make him lose control?

The Noble Bad Guys are doing the right thing for the right reasons? They're just misunderstood?

Wait. Wasn't this book written by Dan Abnett?

Sigh.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-02-25 02:22am

KlavoHunter wrote:That clears up the issue of ONE of the two missing Primarch-children, how about the last of them?

No it doesn't. The legions were founded from different stocks of gene seed. The twins would be identical, thus providing identical legions. All this does is up the total number to twenty one.

Incidentally, the 'two bodies one soul' thing isn't that odd - eldar twins share some kind of funky psionic link.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2008-02-25 02:57am

I'm sorry but that is, without a doubt, the lamest thing ever to happen to 40k.

I've held up the 40k novels as a shining city on a hill in the grim darkness of of sci-fi for a long time, with far more hits than misses, but this shakes my confidence.

"Omegon"? Lol wut?

The twin primarchs thing is so convoluted, stupid, contrived and a bunch of other nasty words i won't even touch that, other than to say...DC comics did it first. She was called the Crimson Fox, only her costume was inordinately lame so most people don't talk about her anymore. In fact i think i broke Comic Nerd Union rules even mentioning her.

This "Cabal", which as far as i know has never been mentioned before and no doubt will never be mentioned again, is either full of shit or the stupidest idea to come out of Games Workshop since they killed off the Squats.

Shame on you, Black Library. Shame!

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-02-25 03:03am

18-Till-I-Die wrote:This "Cabal", which as far as i know has never been mentioned before and no doubt will never be mentioned again,

It's not like it's divided from the regular continuity by ten thousand years or anything...

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2008-02-25 03:36am

NecronLord wrote:
18-Till-I-Die wrote:This "Cabal", which as far as i know has never been mentioned before and no doubt will never be mentioned again,
It's not like it's divided from the regular continuity by ten thousand years or anything...

Ha ha.

Still, the whole thing reeks of ass pull heaped upon ass pull, i mean...honestly, Omegon? Primarch Crimson Fox? Need i go on?

To put into perspective how this feels for me, imagine, if you're a Star Wars fan, how you'd feel if a prequel book were published stating that Anakin died after Mustafar and Vader was actually General Grevious brainwashed to think he was Anakin Skywalker and...errr...let me shut up, Karen Traviss may be reading this.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-02-25 03:41am

18-Till-I-Die wrote: To put into perspective how this feels for me,

I'm quite familiar with 40K thank you.

imagine, if you're a Star Wars fan, how you'd feel if a prequel book were published stating that Anakin died after Mustafar and Vader was actually General Grevious brainwashed to think he was Anakin Skywalker and...errr...let me shut up, Karen Traviss may be reading this.

It's really not that bad. 40K is about fear and ignorance; we've been ignorant of Omegon, that's all. Just like we're ignorant of what happened to two entire legions, the fates of various primarchs, the identity (though Faith and Fire suggests a bit) of Malcador the Siggilite, the creation of the Custodes, the pre-Primarch nature of the legions... And so on.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2008-02-25 05:15am

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: Twin primarchs who take turns filling in for each other being evil... and one of them is not named Calvin? Let me guess, they're identical twins all the way, but where one is steadfast and uptight, the other is a party dude loose cannon? Like Patty Duke, do hot dogs make him lose control?

Um, no. They're identical. And other members of the Legion stand in as "Alpharius" as well. Think of "I'm Spartacus!" but instead of protecting their leader from execution they're just fucking with peoples heads and keeping his identity secret as secrecy is their thing.

The Noble Bad Guys are doing the right thing for the right reasons? They're just misunderstood?

Who said anything about them being noble? Even before they turn to Chaos they're doing stuff like sacrificing elite guard units as bait, infiltrating spies and operatives into their own allies and genrally being underhanded downright sneaky bastards.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2008-02-25 05:30am

18-Till-I-Die wrote: To put into perspective how this feels for me, imagine, if you're a Star Wars fan, how you'd feel if a prequel book were published stating that Anakin died after Mustafar and Vader was actually General Grevious brainwashed to think he was Anakin Skywalker and...errr...let me shut up, Karen Traviss may be reading this.

It must be funny seeing things from your perspective.

You've taken identical twins hiding the fact they're twins, a revelation that keeps with the style of the protagonists (Alpha Legion = sneaky) and doesn't really make much change to the established history, in fact it explains some of it.
And you've compared it to replacing a character with a completely different character in a major retcon that fucks over most of the established history of the series.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-02-25 05:38am

2000AD wrote:
The Noble Bad Guys are doing the right thing for the right reasons? They're just misunderstood?
Who said anything about them being noble? Even before they turn to Chaos they're doing stuff like sacrificing elite guard units as bait, infiltrating spies and operatives into their own allies and genrally being underhanded downright sneaky bastards.

People don't like ambiguity, I guess. I personally think this is great, and I'm amazed they topped the name Alpharius for sillyness.

Lone_Prodigy · Post by **Lone_Prodigy** » 2008-02-25 10:40am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is so hilariously ironic: it seems that the cabal's vision was a self-fulfilling prophecy, since it assumes that the Alpha Legion turns to Chaos. If Horus wins humanity dies and so on, but it assumes that if the Emperor triumphs it will be by only a slight margin–enough so for stagnancy and worship to overtake the Imperium. If Alpha/Omega had stuck with the Emperor, it would've been 10 legions against 8 and Horus's drive towards Terra could've been halted before he ever struck down the Emperor. More than half of the troops sent to the Drop Site Massacre would've been loyal, and that would include the sneakiest of sneaky bastards (and the most likely to detect betrayal). Hilarious.

RIPP_n_WIPE · Post by **RIPP_n_WIPE** » 2008-02-25 11:27am

So perhaps this cabal has been infiltrated by the ruinous powers?

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2008-02-25 12:46pm

NecronLord wrote: the identity (though Faith and Fire suggests a bit) of Malcador the Sigilite

Could you expand on that? I haven't read Faith and Fire.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-02-25 12:57pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Could you expand on that? I haven't read Faith and Fire.

A heretic finds a device built by the Emperor to turn normal people psychic (which was made of neutronium, and the exsanguinated blood of a thousand artists, among other things) and claims that it will make him as powerful as Malcador, presumably suggesting that Malcador's powers may have come from such an invention.

In their ignorance, the Sisters reject the idea that the Emperor would ever make a machine to create witches, and destroy it.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2008-02-25 01:20pm

Many thanks, mighty Star God.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2008-02-25 09:08pm

2000AD wrote:
Bob the Gunslinger wrote: Twin primarchs who take turns filling in for each other being evil... and one of them is not named Calvin? Let me guess, they're identical twins all the way, but where one is steadfast and uptight, the other is a party dude loose cannon? Like Patty Duke, do hot dogs make him lose control?
Um, no. They're identical. And other members of the Legion stand in as "Alpharius" as well. Think of "I'm Spartacus!" but instead of protecting their leader from execution they're just fucking with peoples heads and keeping his identity secret as secrecy is their thing.

I know they're identical physically (Patty Duke joke and all), but what about their personalities? Are they even differentiated?
Besides, how does this work? Has no one ever met Omegon? Did the parents who raised Alpharius and the friends he's made who later became influential on his homeworld never meet Omegon? Never realize that there were two of them? Or is this a fleet-wide conspiracy? Does the Emperor not even know that there are two primarchs running around in Alpha Legion? Did he just not notice the twins during incubation?
This just strikes me as a shoehorned retcon, like Anakin's short-lived Padawan, based on what the author thinks is 'cool'. Maybe I'll have to read this book to see how he pulls it off, but right now I'm very doubtful.

The Noble Bad Guys are doing the right thing for the right reasons? They're just misunderstood?
Who said anything about them being noble? Even before they turn to Chaos they're doing stuff like sacrificing elite guard units as bait, infiltrating spies and operatives into their own allies and genrally being underhanded downright sneaky bastards.

So, we aren't supposed to consider them "noble" when the reason they join Horus's cause and turn on their brothers is to tip the scales and thus sacrifice their people, and the entire human race, to save billions of sentient beings they've never met? It sounds to me like the kind of fluff a 16 year old powergamer would write to justify why his Iron Warriors are really good guys.

I get that they're sneaky. From what I know of Alpharius, he doesn't trust people and has a huge inferiority complex. He doesn't need some sort of prophecy where only he can save the universe in order to turn on the Emperor. And even if he did, this sounds like a really lame way to do it.

Maybe Dan Abnett can pull this off and not have it suck, but I'll wait until a few more people praise the book before I spend any money on it.

Plus, lol the 40kz is even grimmer now.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2008-02-25 09:12pm

Ford Prefect wrote: People don't like ambiguity, I guess. I personally think this is great, and I'm amazed they topped the name Alpharius for sillyness.

Depends on how lame the plot is that delivers the ambiguity. I do agree that the twins help to explain some of the inconsistencies in the fluff... but then they just open up a whole bunch of new ones.

At least they named him Omegon and not Omegan, eh?

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2008-02-26 04:45am

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: I know they're identical physically (Patty Duke joke and all), but what about their personalities? Are they even differentiated?

Identical. No split personalities, no 1 good, 1 bad. They're identical.
In the one scene we're they're both together and both the primach they do the standard 'spooky twin' stuff like giving the same answer to a question at the same time.

Besides, how does this work? Has no one ever met Omegon?

Plenty of people have met Omegon as he is the captain of the 10th company. The secret is that he's not just a space marine, he's a primach as well.

Did the parents who raised Alpharius and the friends he's made who later became influential on his homeworld never meet Omegon? Never realize that there were two of them?

We know next to nothing of "Alpharius'" beginings, the Alpha Legion Index Astartes started with Horus discovering "Alpharius" when his ship was boarded by him.
We don't know if his parents know or not. That's why the Alpha Legion were one of the few legions this would work for, they're good at keeping secrets and we know next to nothing about them, so any retcon wont destroy a lot of established story.

Or is this a fleet-wide conspiracy? Does the Emperor not even know that there are two primarchs running around in Alpha Legion? Did he just not notice the twins during incubation?

The book seems to indicate it's a secret kept solely within the Legion and a select group of their operatives. Not even the Lord General of the crusade knew, in fact he didn't even know what 'Alpharius' looked like as there's never been an official portrait or anything like that.
Given that The Cabal knew I reckon it's safe to say the Emperor knows, unless he's never met either of them (Horus is the one recorded as finding 'Alpharius' and as the last there's a good chance the Emperor was on other busniess across the galaxy). IIRC it's not confirmed either way if the Emperor knows.
If they were twins during incubation then the Emperor probably did notice.

So, we aren't supposed to consider them "noble" when the reason they join Horus's cause and turn on their brothers is to tip the scales and thus sacrifice their people, and the entire human race, to save billions of sentient beings they've never met? It sounds to me like the kind of fluff a 16 year old powergamer would write to justify why his Iron Warriors are really good guys.

Their goal maybe noble, their methods are anything but. It comes down to oft found theme in 40K "do the ends justify the means?"

I get that they're sneaky. From what I know of Alpharius, he doesn't trust people and has a huge inferiority complex. He doesn't need some sort of prophecy where only he can save the universe in order to turn on the Emperor. And even if he did, this sounds like a really lame way to do it.

According to the book he's loyal but not blindly loyal so much that it effects his judgement. He's quite happy to share his opinion that The Emperor's utopian plan is flawed as Utopia is inherently impossible to achieve. And at the end of the book when assaulting an imperial force he still says he's acting "for the Emperor".
In a way, he's more loyal to the Emperor's goals than he is to the Emperor.

[
Surely Ferrus Mannus did that ages ago.

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Horus Heresy: Legion - revelations (big big spoilers)

Horus Heresy: Legion - revelations (big big spoilers)

Re: Horus Heresy: Legion - revelations (big big spoilers)