The End of Suburbia

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HemlockGrey
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The End of Suburbia

Post by HemlockGrey »

I ran into this article in The Atlantic regarding the future of American suburbs. It approaches their future from more of a foreclosure-crisis perspective than an energy-crisis perspective, but I think the vision of the future the guy lays out would be of considerable interest to some people here.

In addition, for those of you really interested in urban development and suburban sprawl, there's a two-part 2001 documentary available online for free. Part 1 deals with urban communities and Part 2 deals with the problems of suburban sprawl. It's focused on Michigan since its a Michigan public TV station, but the problems it talks about can be applied to almost any region in the US.

The Atlantic article
The Next Slum?
by Christopher B. Leinberger

Strange days are upon the residents of many a suburban cul-de-sac. Once-tidy yards have become overgrown, as the houses they front have gone vacant. Signs of physical and social disorder are spreading.

At Windy Ridge, a recently built starter-home development seven miles northwest of Charlotte, North Carolina, 81 of the community’s 132 small, vinyl-sided houses were in foreclosure as of late last year. Vandals have kicked in doors and stripped the copper wire from vacant houses; drug users and homeless people have furtively moved in. In December, after a stray bullet blasted through her son’s bedroom and into her own, Laurie Talbot, who’d moved to Windy Ridge from New York in 2005, told The Charlotte Observer, “I thought I’d bought a home in Pleasantville. I never imagined in my wildest dreams that stuff like this would happen.”

In the Franklin Reserve neighborhood of Elk Grove, California, south of Sacramento, the houses are nicer than those at Windy Ridge—many once sold for well over $500,000—but the phenomenon is the same. At the height of the boom, 10,000 new homes were built there in just four years. Now many are empty; renters of dubious character occupy others. Graffiti, broken windows, and other markers of decay have multiplied. Susan McDonald, president of the local residents’ association and an executive at a local bank, told the Associated Press, “There’s been gang activity. Things have really been changing, the last few years.”

In the first half of last year, residential burglaries rose by 35 percent and robberies by 58 percent in suburban Lee County, Florida, where one in four houses stands empty. Charlotte’s crime rates have stayed flat overall in recent years—but from 2003 to 2006, in the 10 suburbs of the city that have experienced the highest foreclosure rates, crime rose 33 percent. Civic organizations in some suburbs have begun to mow the lawns around empty houses to keep up the appearance of stability. Police departments are mapping foreclosures in an effort to identify emerging criminal hot spots.

The decline of places like Windy Ridge and Franklin Reserve is usually attributed to the subprime-mortgage crisis, with its wave of foreclosures. And the crisis has indeed catalyzed or intensified social problems in many communities. But the story of vacant suburban homes and declining suburban neighborhoods did not begin with the crisis, and will not end with it. A structural change is under way in the housing market—a major shift in the way many Americans want to live and work. It has shaped the current downturn, steering some of the worst problems away from the cities and toward the suburban fringes. And its effects will be felt more strongly, and more broadly, as the years pass. Its ultimate impact on the suburbs, and the cities, will be profound.

Arthur C. Nelson, director of the Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech, has looked carefully at trends in American demographics, construction, house prices, and consumer preferences. In 2006, using recent consumer research, housing supply data, and population growth rates, he modeled future demand for various types of housing. The results were bracing: Nelson forecasts a likely surplus of 22 million large-lot homes (houses built on a sixth of an acre or more) by 2025—that’s roughly 40 percent of the large-lot homes in existence today.

For 60 years, Americans have pushed steadily into the suburbs, transforming the landscape and (until recently) leaving cities behind. But today the pendulum is swinging back toward urban living, and there are many reasons to believe this swing will continue. As it does, many low-density suburbs and McMansion subdivisions, including some that are lovely and affluent today, may become what inner cities became in the 1960s and ’70s—slums characterized by poverty, crime, and decay.

The suburban dream began, arguably, at the New York World’s Fair of 1939 and ’40. “Highways and Horizons,” better known as “Futurama,” was overwhelmingly the fair’s most popular exhibit; perhaps 10 percent of the American population saw it. At the heart of the exhibit was a scale model, covering an area about the size of a football field, that showed what American cities and towns might look like in 1960. Visitors watched matchbox-sized cars zip down wide highways. Gone were the crowded tenements of the time; 1960s Americans would live in stand-alone houses with spacious yards and attached garages. The exhibit would not impress us today, but at the time, it inspired wonder. E. B. White wrote in Harper’s, “A ride on the Futurama … induces approximately the same emotional response as a trip through the Cathedral of St. John the Divine … I didn’t want to wake up.”

The suburban transformation that began in 1946, as GIs returned home, took almost half a century to complete, as first people, then retail, then jobs moved out of cities and into new subdivisions, malls, and office parks. As families decamped for the suburbs, they left behind out-of-fashion real estate, a poorer residential base, and rising crime. Once-thriving central-city retail districts were killed off by the combination of regional suburban malls and the 1960s riots. By the end of the 1970s, people seeking safety and good schools generally had little alternative but to move to the suburbs. In 1981, Escape From New York, starring Kurt Russell, depicted a near future in which Manhattan had been abandoned, fenced off, and turned into an unsupervised penitentiary.

Cities, of course, have made a long climb back since then. Just nine years after Russell escaped from the wreck of New York, Seinfeld—followed by Friends, then Sex and the City—began advertising the city’s renewed urban allure to Gen-Xers and Millennials. Many Americans, meanwhile, became disillusioned with the sprawl and stupor that sometimes characterize suburban life. These days, when Hollywood wants to portray soullessness, despair, or moral decay, it often looks to the suburbs—as The Sopranos and Desperate Housewives attest—for inspiration.

In the past decade, as cities have gentrified, the suburbs have continued to grow at a breakneck pace. Atlanta’s sprawl has extended nearly to Chattanooga; Fort Worth and Dallas have merged; and Los Angeles has swung a leg over the 10,000-foot San Gabriel Mountains into the Mojave Desert. Some experts expect conventional suburbs to continue to sprawl ever outward. Yet today, American metropolitan residential patterns and cultural preferences are mirror opposites of those in the 1940s. Most Americans now live in single-family suburban houses that are segregated from work, shopping, and entertainment; but it is urban life, almost exclusively, that is culturally associated with excitement, freedom, and diverse daily life. And as in the 1940s, the real-estate market has begun to react.

Pent-up demand for urban living is evident in housing prices. Twenty years ago, urban housing was a bargain in most central cities. Today, it carries an enormous price premium. Per square foot, urban residential neighborhood space goes for 40 percent to 200 percent more than traditional suburban space in areas as diverse as New York City; Portland, Oregon; Seattle; and Washington, D.C.

It’s crucial to note that these premiums have arisen not only in central cities, but also in suburban towns that have walkable urban centers offering a mix of residential and commercial development. For instance, luxury single-family homes in suburban Westchester County, just north of New York City, sell for $375 a square foot. A luxury condo in downtown White Plains, the county’s biggest suburban city, can cost you $750 a square foot. This same pattern can be seen in the suburbs of Detroit, or outside Seattle. People are being drawn to the convenience and culture of walkable urban neighborhoods across the country—even when those neighborhoods are small.

Builders and developers tend to notice big price imbalances, and they are working to accommodate demand for urban living. New lofts and condo complexes have popped up all over many big cities. Suburban towns built in the 19th and early 20th centuries, featuring downtown street grids at their core, have seen a good deal of “in-filling” in recent years as well, with new condos and town houses, and renovated small-lot homes just outside their downtowns. And while urban construction may slow for a time because of the present housing bust, it will surely continue. Sprawling, large-lot suburbs become less attractive as they become more densely built, but urban areas—especially those well served by public transit—become more appealing as they are filled in and built up. Crowded sidewalks tend to be safe and lively, and bigger crowds can support more shops, restaurants, art galleries.

But developers are also starting to find ways to bring the city to newer suburbs—and provide an alternative to conventional, car-based suburban life. “Lifestyle centers”—walkable developments that create an urban feel, even when built in previously undeveloped places—are becoming popular with some builders. They feature narrow streets and small storefronts that come up to the sidewalk, mixed in with housing and office space. Parking is mostly hidden underground or in the interior of faux city blocks.

The granddaddy of all lifestyle centers is the Reston Town Center, located between Virginia’s Dulles International Airport and Washington, D.C. Since it opened in 1990, it has become the “downtown” for western Fairfax and eastern Loudoun counties; a place for the kids to see Santa and for teenagers to ice skate. People living in the town can stroll from the movie theater to restaurants and then back home. A 2006 study by the Brookings Institution showed that Reston’s apartments, condominiums, and office and retail space were all commanding about a 50 percent rent or price premium over the typically suburban houses, office parks, and strip malls nearby.

Housing at Belmar, the new “downtown” in Lakewood, Colorado, a middle-income inner suburb of Denver, commands a 60 percent premium per square foot over the single-family homes in the neighborhoods around it. The development covers about 20 small blocks in all. What’s most noteworthy is its history: it was built on the site of a razed mall.

Building lifestyle centers is far more complex than building McMansion developments (or malls). These new, faux-urban centers have many moving parts, and they need to achieve critical mass quickly to attract buyers and retailers. As a result, during the 1990s, lifestyle centers spread slowly. But real-estate developers are gaining more experience with this sort of building, and it is proliferating. Very few, if any, regional malls are being built these days—lifestyle centers are going up instead.

In most metropolitan areas, only 5 to 10 percent of the housing stock is located in walkable urban places (including places like downtown White Plains and Belmar). Yet recent consumer research by Jonathan Levine of the University of Michigan and Lawrence Frank of the University of British Columbia suggests that roughly one in three homeowners would prefer to live in these types of places. In one study, for instance, Levine and his colleagues asked more than 1,600 mostly suburban residents of the Atlanta and Boston metro areas to hypothetically trade off typical suburban amenities (such as large living spaces) against typical urban ones (like living within walking distance of retail districts). All in all, they found that only about a third of the people surveyed solidly preferred traditional suburban lifestyles, featuring large houses and lots of driving. Another third, roughly, had mixed feelings. The final third wanted to live in mixed-use, walkable urban areas—but most had no way to do so at an affordable price. Over time, as urban and faux-urban building continues, that will change.

Demographic changes in the United States also are working against conventional suburban growth, and are likely to further weaken preferences for car-based suburban living. When the Baby Boomers were young, families with children made up more than half of all households; by 2000, they were only a third of households; and by 2025, they will be closer to a quarter. Young people are starting families later than earlier generations did, and having fewer children. The Boomers themselves are becoming empty-nesters, and many have voiced a preference for urban living. By 2025, the U.S. will contain about as many single-person households as families with children.

Because the population is growing, families with children will still grow in absolute number—according to U.S. Census data, there will be about 4 million more households with children in 2025 than there were in 2000. But more than 10 million new single-family homes have already been built since 2000, most of them in the suburbs.

If gasoline and heating costs continue to rise, conventional suburban living may not be much of a bargain in the future. And as more Americans, particularly affluent Americans, move into urban communities, families may find that some of the suburbs’ other big advantages—better schools and safer communities—have eroded. Schooling and safety are likely to improve in urban areas, as those areas continue to gentrify; they may worsen in many suburbs if the tax base—often highly dependent on house values and new development—deteriorates. Many of the fringe counties in the Washington, D.C., metropolitan area, for instance, are projecting big budget deficits in 2008. Only Washington itself is expecting a large surplus. Fifteen years ago, this budget situation was reversed.

The U.S. grows its total stock of housing and commercial space by, at most, 3 percent each year, so the imbalance between the supply of urban living options and the demand for them is not going to disappear overnight. But over the next 20 years, developers will likely produce many, many millions of new and newly renovated town houses, condos, and small-lot houses in and around both new and traditional downtowns.

As conventional suburban lifestyles fall out of fashion and walkable urban alternatives proliferate, what will happen to obsolete large-lot houses? One might imagine culs-de-sac being converted to faux Main Streets, or McMansion developments being bulldozed and reforested or turned into parks. But these sorts of transformations are likely to be rare. Suburbia’s many small parcels of land, held by different owners with different motivations, make the purchase of whole neighborhoods almost unheard-of. Condemnation of single-family housing for “higher and better use” is politically difficult, and in most states it has become almost legally impossible in recent years. In any case, the infrastructure supporting large-lot suburban residential areas—roads, sewer and water lines—cannot support the dense development that urbanization would require, and is not easy to upgrade. Once large-lot, suburban residential landscapes are built, they are hard to unbuild.

The experience of cities during the 1950s through the ’80s suggests that the fate of many single-family homes on the metropolitan fringes will be resale, at rock-bottom prices, to lower-income families—and in all likelihood, eventual conversion to apartments.

This future is not likely to wear well on suburban housing. Many of the inner-city neighborhoods that began their decline in the 1960s consisted of sturdily built, turn-of-the-century row houses, tough enough to withstand being broken up into apartments, and requiring relatively little upkeep. By comparison, modern suburban houses, even high-end McMansions, are cheaply built. Hollow doors and wallboard are less durable than solid-oak doors and lath-and-plaster walls. The plywood floors that lurk under wood veneers or carpeting tend to break up and warp as the glue that holds the wood together dries out; asphalt-shingle roofs typically need replacing after 10 years. Many recently built houses take what structural integrity they have from drywall—their thin wooden frames are too flimsy to hold the houses up.

As the residents of inner-city neighborhoods did before them, suburban homeowners will surely try to prevent the division of neighborhood houses into rental units, which would herald the arrival of the poor. And many will likely succeed, for a time. But eventually, the owners of these fringe houses will have to sell to someone, and they’re not likely to find many buyers; offers from would-be landlords will start to look better, and neighborhood restrictions will relax. Stopping a fundamental market shift by legislation or regulation is generally impossible.

Of course, not all suburbs will suffer this fate. Those that are affluent and relatively close to central cities—especially those along rail lines—are likely to remain in high demand. Some, especially those that offer a thriving, walkable urban core, may find that even the large-lot, residential-only neighborhoods around that core increase in value. Single-family homes next to the downtowns of Redmond, Washington; Evanston, Illinois; and Birmingham, Michigan, for example, are likely to hold their values just fine.

On the other hand, many inner suburbs that are on the wrong side of town, and poorly served by public transport, are already suffering what looks like inexorable decline. Low-income people, displaced from gentrifying inner cities, have moved in, and longtime residents, seeking more space and nicer neighborhoods, have moved out.

But much of the future decline is likely to occur on the fringes, in towns far away from the central city, not served by rail transit, and lacking any real core. In other words, some of the worst problems are likely to be seen in some of the country’s more recently developed areas—and not only those inhabited by subprime-mortgage borrowers. Many of these areas will become magnets for poverty, crime, and social dysfunction.

Despite this glum forecast for many swaths of suburbia, we should not lose sight of the bigger picture—the shift that’s under way toward walkable urban living is a healthy development. In the most literal sense, it may lead to better personal health and a slimmer population. The environment, of course, will also benefit: if New York City were its own state, it would be the most energy-efficient state in the union; most Manhattanites not only walk or take public transit to get around, they unintentionally share heat with their upstairs neighbors.

Perhaps most important, the shift to walkable urban environments will give more people what they seem to want. I doubt the swing toward urban living will ever proceed as far as the swing toward the suburbs did in the 20th century; many people will still prefer the bigger houses and car-based lifestyles of conventional suburbs. But there will almost certainly be more of a balance between walkable and drivable communities—allowing people in most areas a wider variety of choices.

By the estimate of Virginia Tech’s Arthur Nelson, as much as half of all real-estate development on the ground in 2025 will not have existed in 2000. It’s exciting to imagine what the country will look like then. Building and residential migration seem to progress slowly from year to year, yet then one day, in retrospect, the landscape seems to have been transformed in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately, the next transformation, like the ones before it, will leave some places diminished. About 25 years ago, Escape From New York perfectly captured the zeitgeist of its moment. Two or three decades from now, the next Kurt Russell may find his breakout role in Escape From the Suburban Fringe.
The End of Suburbia
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Post by Darth Wong »

Even suburbs that don't fall victim to waves of foreclosures and departures tend to fall apart over time. I've seen it around here, on a lesser scale. A new subdivision crops up, and promptly fills up with young families. The result is a classic monoculture of same-looking houses, same-looking families, and same-looking values, all with kids around the same age.

The kids grow up terminally bored with their candy-coated monochromatic existence, and 10 years down the road, that idyllic suburb filled with 8 year old kids laughing and playing at the park is filled with bored 18 year old kids doing drugs and getting in fights at the park: the natural outcome of the original monoculture.

The result? Property values drop, and the neighbourhood becomes known as a bad place to live. Meanwhile, the old crowded urban neighbourhood with its chaotic mixture of young families, elderly retirees, middle-agers, wealthy and poor, just keeps trucking along. It ain't perfect, but it's stable.
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Post by Surlethe »

This future is not likely to wear well on suburban housing. Many of the inner-city neighborhoods that began their decline in the 1960s consisted of sturdily built, turn-of-the-century row houses, tough enough to withstand being broken up into apartments, and requiring relatively little upkeep. By comparison, modern suburban houses, even high-end McMansions, are cheaply built. Hollow doors and wallboard are less durable than solid-oak doors and lath-and-plaster walls. The plywood floors that lurk under wood veneers or carpeting tend to break up and warp as the glue that holds the wood together dries out; asphalt-shingle roofs typically need replacing after 10 years. Many recently built houses take what structural integrity they have from drywall—their thin wooden frames are too flimsy to hold the houses up.
Are suburban McHouses really this shittily constructed? I knew they were flimsy, but this is just ridiculous.
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Post by aerius »

Surlethe wrote:Are suburban McHouses really this shittily constructed? I knew they were flimsy, but this is just ridiculous.
They're not exactly at the point where they're held up by drywall, but it's getting pretty close to that. Hell, some of the recent houses I've seen don't even have plywood anymore, they use fucking chipboard for all the floors, walls, and the roof. Yes, all the doors are indeed hollow, even the main entrance doors. I'd never consider buying one of these shit-ass homes.

Rather, I have my eye on some nice solid brick & concrete homes which were built in the 60's & early 70's.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Surlethe wrote:Are suburban McHouses really this shittily constructed? I knew they were flimsy, but this is just ridiculous.
Have you ever known a building contractor?
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Post by Surlethe »

aerius wrote:They're not exactly at the point where they're held up by drywall, but it's getting pretty close to that. Hell, some of the recent houses I've seen don't even have plywood anymore, they use fucking chipboard for all the floors, walls, and the roof. Yes, all the doors are indeed hollow, even the main entrance doors. I'd never consider buying one of these shit-ass homes.
Christ. I don't want to even think about the heating and cooling bills, let alone how it would stand up to a tornado. And these are the things people have gone into serious debt to get?
Rather, I have my eye on some nice solid brick & concrete homes which were built in the 60's & early 70's.
When I'm at the point of buying a house a few years down the line, I'll be doing the same thing. Hell, a few years back -- in fact, the January after I joined the board -- there was a huge ice storm in my area. It was below freezing outside, and we were without power for five days. My family's brick house maintained a pretty steady temperature between 40 and 45 degrees; it was tolerable with a couple of layers of clothes on, and even comfortable by the fireplace.
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Post by Surlethe »

Darth Wong wrote:
Surlethe wrote:Are suburban McHouses really this shittily constructed? I knew they were flimsy, but this is just ridiculous.
Have you ever known a building contractor?
No. If I did, would I be much less surprised?
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Post by Knife »

Surlethe wrote: Are suburban McHouses really this shittily constructed? I knew they were flimsy, but this is just ridiculous.
Not to jump on the band wagon but...yup. When I moved into my current home, all the area around me were open fields and farms. Now it's all McMansions. They go up really fucking fast which implies they've simplified or cut corners. Particle board all over.

Then they turn around and charge 300+ which is actually double the price of my house when I bought it. The over all sad part about it is that all they've build for the last ~8 years are these cheap monstrosities, if you don't want one there are no new houses being built except these.
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Post by Alferd Packer »

Stuff like this is why I want to get into a house ASAP. The town I have my eye on has than walkable urban downtown core the article spoke of and is well-served my both train and bus. The way I figure it, I have a couple of years before people catch on and the prices of homes skyrocket, so I want to get in now, while they're still reasonable (for central, NJ, anyway).
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

aerius wrote:Rather, I have my eye on some nice solid brick & concrete homes which were built in the 60's & early 70's.
Those homes are pretty good, since they combine study construction and were built when there were codes and standards.

The house I grew up in and my parents live in was built sometime in the 20s or 30s, when alot of the neighborhood I lived in started filling up (once upon a time, it was on the edge of Pittsburgh). This leads to a rather interesting problem. It's built incredibly solid, but at the same time very little in it is to modern standard. This means that it is actually really expensive to do repairs or update. Like the wiring in the house needs upgraded, since that was last done before my parents even owned it, but because it was done a long time ago, the it needs a complete makeover.

Likewise, alot of the estimates we got for contract work on the kitchen and bathroom were "Well, to be honest, if you want to redo this room, we are basically going to have to strip it down to the studs...". Of course, they were contractors so my dad had some of his friends over who are contractors to check it out as well, and they ended up agreeing. Just the nature of the beast, it's a sturdy house, but when somethings need replacing, it's a bear to do right (and more than my parents can really afford).
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Surlethe wrote:
aerius wrote:They're not exactly at the point where they're held up by drywall, but it's getting pretty close to that. Hell, some of the recent houses I've seen don't even have plywood anymore, they use fucking chipboard for all the floors, walls, and the roof. Yes, all the doors are indeed hollow, even the main entrance doors. I'd never consider buying one of these shit-ass homes.
Christ. I don't want to even think about the heating and cooling bills, let alone how it would stand up to a tornado. And these are the things people have gone into serious debt to get?
Rather, I have my eye on some nice solid brick & concrete homes which were built in the 60's & early 70's.
When I'm at the point of buying a house a few years down the line, I'll be doing the same thing. Hell, a few years back -- in fact, the January after I joined the board -- there was a huge ice storm in my area. It was below freezing outside, and we were without power for five days. My family's brick house maintained a pretty steady temperature between 40 and 45 degrees; it was tolerable with a couple of layers of clothes on, and even comfortable by the fireplace.
Honey, I live in AZ... cooling is insane. My moms place was built in the late 80s and its cooling bills were insane. We are talking 600 USD a month or more. My room was a fucking hotbox, and we had to keep the thermostat at 65 just to keep the house temp at 75-80. So she sold the house, and moved into an apartment... that was newer but made better. Cooling drops by an order of magnitude. Even when you account for the smaller size, and add up the cooling costs in the other 4 apartments in her unit, still about a third of what she used to be paying to cool her house.

On the other hand, the house I lived in when in Alaska was built by my father (for all his faults he was good at building things) was 4 stories, with a massive amount of floor space... and could be heated in an alaskan winter with a wood burning stove... sure an electric blanket was nice when you sleep, but those are ALWAYS nice when you sleep...
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Post by Coyote »

I think that cities that have to spend extra taxdollars on policing and cleaning up these decaying sprawl-villes should charge the goddamn banks for loaning money willy-nilly to people and encouraging the behavior.
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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Einhander Sn0m4n
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

This is what I loved about San Antonio. It was dense and compact with a very good bus system. 1.5 million people in a city less than twenty miles wide is a good start, as are highly-developed bus routes serviced every fifteen minutes at the most. It still needs better bike paths like Denver's.

Baton Rouge OTOH is around ten miles across and only ~450K. It's smaller, but it's also quite a bit less dense, and the buses are a running joke. Bike paths? Forget it unless you're ON LSU Campus. People still ride their bikes in the streets anyway even if they're SUV-magnets.

Houston... is just simply Vast and Scary. It's got five and a half megs of people and it takes an hour to transit at ~70MPH at 3 in the morning. That implies a city more than sixty miles in diameter! Dunno about the buses; I lived for six weeks just barely west of its Downtown Core. I seriously wonder what will happen when its suburbs really start to let go.
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Post by Alferd Packer »

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:I seriously wonder what will happen when its suburbs really start to let go.
Any city built after the turn of the century is in for a hearty fucking, plain and simple. The most egregious example of this, if probably Phoenix, AZ. It's the nation's fifth largest city, and its population density is less than half of the suburban town I live in in New Jersey. Putting the fact that it's in the desert aside, the city has to shrink precipitously in physical size to achieve the kind of density of, say, New York, Boston, or Chicago. Plus, it doesn't have any mass transit to speak of, so you need to build that. You could repeat the story for Houston, DFW, San Antonio, San Diego, and so on. The less dense the city is now, the more empty/squatter neighborhoods you have. I suspect the south will be harder hit than the north.

Meanwhile, in places like Chicago and the Bos-Wash megalopolis, as well as older cities in the Midwest and West, life will continue pretty much as it has. Some exurbs that have zero mass transit options might die, but the old bones of this nation's rail system are sturdiest in the older parts of the country, so there need only be political will to reestablish/create mass transit routes.
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Post by aerius »

Surlethe wrote:Christ. I don't want to even think about the heating and cooling bills, let alone how it would stand up to a tornado. And these are the things people have gone into serious debt to get?
Think of it as a grand expression of style over substance, the homes look & smell pretty when they're new, but only on a surface level and it doesn't take too many years to wear through that surface. They're big & shiny and that's what people want, even if the whole house falls apart & collapses after 10-20 years.

It pretty much goes all downhill after the early 70's, 2x4's are no longer 2x4", they start using lower grades of wood, and floors get really cheaped out. Back then they had solid 12x2" floor joists spaced every 16" or so, and it's all extensively cross-braced. Instead of having plywood on top of the joists, there's 2 layers of 3/4" x 2" boards nailed diagonally across the top of the joists, with the layers at right angles to each other, the hardwood floor goes on top of that. There's literally 2 inches of wood beneath my feet, the floor is solid and it ain't moving. That type of construction standard is carried into the rest of the home, poured concrete walls, some will even have reinforced concrete with solid brick facings. Speaking of bricks, they don't make'em like they used to. When my dad had to put in a new dryer vent it took him a whole day to drill & chisel out a 5" hole, and getting through the brick alone took a couple hours. A similar hole in the garage which was built in the 80's took less than half an hour.

That gives you an idea of how well today's houses will hold up.
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Post by Darth Wong »

People built shitty cheap homes in the 1970s too. The biggest difference was that when you bought a cheap home in the 1970s, you knew you were buying a cheap home. It felt cheap, it looked cheap. My parents lived in one of these cheap homes for a while, and there was no doubt about it.

Today, builders have become very good at concealing the shoddy construction quality of homes. A home could be built like shit but you wouldn't know it from walking through it. Also, there is an insatiable hunger for ostentatious size and opulence by status-seeking middle-class families trying to live beyond their means. So these huge monster homes with shitty construction quality have become the norm, and we have this perverse situation where people pay huge amounts of money for shoddily built homes.
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Post by aerius »

Darth Wong wrote:People built shitty cheap homes in the 1970s too. The biggest difference was that when you bought a cheap home in the 1970s, you knew you were buying a cheap home. It felt cheap, it looked cheap. My parents lived in one of these cheap homes for a while, and there was no doubt about it.
No kidding, I saw a few of them in my university days when I was looking for a room to rent. I could tell from a mile away that it wasn't a quality construction job, it looked cheap, it felt cheap, it even smelled cheap, not surprisingly the rent was also cheap but I figured a few extra bucks a month wasn't going to kill me so I got a better room in an older more solid home.

With regards to new homes, it's not too hard to tell how cheap they are, but realtors & owners would likely frown upon the methods. Jump on the floor nice & hard, punch the inside walls, and throw a medicine ball against the exterior walls. If everything starts shaking & rattling, it ain't well-built. I've actually been to homes where I could get the load-bearing walls to shake by pounding on them with my fist, that's just scary.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Darth Wong wrote:...and we have this perverse situation where people pay huge amounts of money for shoddily built homes.
I've noticed that in everything across the board, Mike. Prices are going up while quality is going down. It's not just the banks and homebuilders, it's literally everyone from restaurants to Wal-Mart, cars to firearms; we're paying more and getting less.

I think we just hit Peak Consumerism. Just like the cheap oil is running out, so is the cheap money from Joe Consumer, so they're not husbanding us, they're pumping out as many dollars from us as they possibly can as quickly as they can.
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Post by Wedge »

Just a stupid question.
Aren't there regulation for new constructions? My family is building a house in Spain, and omfg there are so many regulations that one must consider. Four years ago one HAD to make an insurance for ten years when building a new house. So are there regulations, and if there are, is the standard so low?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Wedge wrote:Just a stupid question.
Aren't there regulation for new constructions? My family is building a house in Spain, and omfg there are so many regulations that one must consider. Four years ago one HAD to make an insurance for ten years when building a new house. So are there regulations, and if there are, is the standard so low?
As long as the house is safe for a certain number of years, I imagine it meets code. Nobody said that a house had to look nice forever, and really strict regulations that guarantee a certain level of quality would make it impossible to build crappy low-cost housing for low-income families.

Let's face it: if the house has shitty sound-proofing and the corners aren't square and the floors warp, it's still safe enough to live in. It just sucks in terms of quality, but that's OK: it's a huge multi-billion dollar business to periodically renovate a home too, so the almighty gods of economic growth still receive their tribute.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Post by FireNexus »

The perfect example of this is chimneys. Most homes with masonry chimneys use terra cotta tiles as a flue liner, held together by mortar joints. While this meets code because it provides a continuous lining, terra cotta has a nasty habit of braking down over time in response to moisture or corrosive chemicals present in some heating exhausts (that means you, fuel oil). While it's safe for a period of time (anywhere from 10-30 years, usually the lower end of that spectrum) it will inevitably break down and you'll need costly relining. And heaven forbid if codes change before that happens, because you might need the whole thing rebuilt.

Terra cotta is a lousy solution, but it's about a tenth the cost of Type B Vent (which actually won't necessarilly last any longer), cast in place lining system (which will probably last for a century) or a stainless steel lining system (which will survive anything barring a nuclear detonation).

Codes aren't designed to make the homes safe indefinitely. They're designed to make sure the builder doesn't have a callous disregard for safety. They also assume that homeowners will keep on top of upkeep, which almost never happens.
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Post by Terralthra »

Darth Wong wrote:People built shitty cheap homes in the 1970s too. The biggest difference was that when you bought a cheap home in the 1970s, you knew you were buying a cheap home. It felt cheap, it looked cheap. My parents lived in one of these cheap homes for a while, and there was no doubt about it.

Today, builders have become very good at concealing the shoddy construction quality of homes. A home could be built like shit but you wouldn't know it from walking through it. Also, there is an insatiable hunger for ostentatious size and opulence by status-seeking middle-class families trying to live beyond their means. So these huge monster homes with shitty construction quality have become the norm, and we have this perverse situation where people pay huge amounts of money for shoddily built homes.
As someone saving money for a down-payment on a house somewhere down the line, what do you suggest looking for to figure out if it's a well-built home?
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Post by General Zod »

Knife wrote: Not to jump on the band wagon but...yup. When I moved into my current home, all the area around me were open fields and farms. Now it's all McMansions. They go up really fucking fast which implies they've simplified or cut corners. Particle board all over.
It doesn't take much for them to go up quickly when the vast majority of floor plans are standardized and nearly everything can be pre-fabbed in a factory before being assembled on site.
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Post by Block »

General Zod wrote:
Knife wrote: Not to jump on the band wagon but...yup. When I moved into my current home, all the area around me were open fields and farms. Now it's all McMansions. They go up really fucking fast which implies they've simplified or cut corners. Particle board all over.
It doesn't take much for them to go up quickly when the vast majority of floor plans are standardized and nearly everything can be pre-fabbed in a factory before being assembled on site.
And this is something that people in this thread are ignoring. One of the reasons houses go up much faster now is the technology used in home building has advanced a great deal.

Yes, some of them are bad houses, but a hell of a lot fewer than people claim. Yes there are codes, and they're pretty strict. It depends on the state as to what those codes actually are though. Some contractors are crooks, but then some contractors have always been crooks. OSB is a decent, cheap sheathing that lasts between 30-50 years, though there's always exceptions. Shingles, if they're put on properly, last either 20 or 30 years, depending on the type. Housing isn't nearly as bad as people like to claim, it's yet another one of those nostalgia things.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Block wrote:And this is something that people in this thread are ignoring. One of the reasons houses go up much faster now is the technology used in home building has advanced a great deal.
Yup. I hated to jump onto the haterade wagon here; you guys sound like those guys in the early fifties railing against that new-fangled drywall....

"For a solid home, get plaster!"

was the cry of plasterers unions and plaster manufacturers.

And that "particleboard" you're railing against is OSB. It's just as strong as Plywood; and cheaper to make. It just doesn't look as pretty.

There are a few hiccups which do involve the large scale introduction of any new building technology; the most infamous being PVC piping, nobody really did any good studies it's durability in cold weather climates; leading to a lot of early 90s homes having problems with pipes breaking and flooding the basement.
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