Ms Traviss redeems herself (spoilers, LotF:Revelation)

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Post by Molyneux »

Darth Hoth wrote:What about Admiral Prittick? Or Grand Admiral Oswald Teshik, both of whom were part of the fleet, and who outranked Pellaeon quite considerably?
Lazarus mentions Teshik in the preceding post. Maybe you ought to read a bit more carefully...
Lazarus wrote:This missed out other officers who were killed or unable to take command, such as those on board Executor or Grand Admiral Teshik (did not announce his presence or take command - the Eleemosynary had a damaged comms unit, which explains this).
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Post by Darth Hoth »

Stang. I guess I should. :oops:

Is there a similar explanation for Prittick?
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Post by (name here) »

I recall that Garm had command of the republic 5th fleet.
Was that the battle that consisted of ONE YV fleet and a slightly retarded commander who had zero experience against the entire Braxant Sector Fleet? The battle that the Empire was losing badly untill Luke Skywalker turned up with information on how to adapt to Vong Biotech?
actually, it was the remains of the bastion defense force and a handful of star destroyer vs. a very large vong fleet, to the point it where it kamakaized capital ships to try and kill star destroyers. They had stutter fire and the yammosk sensor, but i don't think they had the jammer, which was employed at coruscant. admittedly, the vong lost basically all ability to do anything at all by Force Heritic, for no clear reason, so it was probably easier despite being more outnumbered.
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Post by Lazarus »

Darth Hoth wrote:Stang. I guess I should. :oops:

Is there a similar explanation for Prittick?
If Prittick was capable of taking command of the fleet, he would have done so either after Piett's death or after Harrsk was put out of action, depending on his rank and seniority. The fact that Chimaera's CO, a Captain, had to take command shows that Prittick wasn't capable of doing so, else he already would have already assumed command.

Out of universe, this is a result of the timings of the books being written. HttE does not say Pellaeon ordered a retreat, but rather 'when the order for retreat came' - it is Darksaber that changes this story. Consequently, at the time of TTaB, there was no account of who ordered the retreat, hence the creation of Prittick. He is never heard from again or referenced elsewhere due to the later changing to Pellaeon giving the order. Personally I think that could be a retcon, but if not the two can still be reconciled as above.
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Post by Darth Hoth »

That seems to be the best explanation, then. I know the OOU history, of course, I was merely wondering if there had been anything done on Prittick since then to reconcile the sources. But alas. Apparently, it will be one more of those small irritants in the canon.
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Post by Gustav32Vasa »

(name here) wrote:They had stutter fire and the yammosk sensor, but i don't think they had the jammer, which was employed at coruscant.
They had one, it was onboard the Defiant.
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Gustav32Vasa wrote:
(name here) wrote:They had stutter fire and the yammosk sensor, but i don't think they had the jammer, which was employed at coruscant.
They had one, it was onboard the Defiant.
Okay, i wasn't sure. then the tactical situation was the same, except for worse odds and no jedi pilots except the jade shadow.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

No it was the Braxant Sector Fleet, Braxant/Bastion being the capital of the bloody Empire. It was hardly a toothless fleet. In the Hand Of Thrawn duology the Braxant fleet was decribed as having IIRC 14 or more Imperial Class Star Destroyers plus numerous other ships. At the start of the war the Imperials also had an Executor Class Star Dreadnaught which I doubt was posted anywhere else but the IR's capital. The Hand of Thrawn Duology also described Bastion as being one of the best defended planets in the galaxy, better defended than Courscant. The Jedi are also a red herring. During the YV War the Jedi at most fielded one whole squadron, hardly a huge amount.

Courscant was attacked by many YV Fleets and was commanded by the Warmaster himself, so it's a safe assumption that these fleets where the best in the Vong navy. We know from Star By Star that 3 of these fleets rammed the Coruscant shield to bring it down, while still leaving enough ships behind to hold off the NR fleet and fight them to a stand still. By contrast the Empire was attacked by one Fleet, a fleet commanded by IIRC an inexperienced Vong who had only just acheieved his command cloak.
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Post by Thanas »

Lord Pounder wrote:No it was the Braxant Sector Fleet, Braxant/Bastion being the capital of the bloody Empire. It was hardly a toothless fleet. In the Hand Of Thrawn duology the Braxant fleet was decribed as having IIRC 14 or more Imperial Class Star Destroyers plus numerous other ships. At the start of the war the Imperials also had an Executor Class Star Dreadnaught which I doubt was posted anywhere else but the IR's capital. The Hand of Thrawn Duology also described Bastion as being one of the best defended planets in the galaxy, better defended than Courscant. The Jedi are also a red herring.
Which makes the vong even more retarded villains.

"Golly, we have still no defeated the NR. What should we do?"
"I have an idea, let's attack one of the most heavily defended planets in the galaxy and make a new enemy in our hinterland, who is perfectly positioned to sever our supply lines. Oh, and completely expend our strategic reserve in that process."

:roll:


Regarding the issue of Jedi: Apparently the empire had begun to field their own force users during that time, Pellaeon had a female "hand" with force powers. Wonder what happened to her.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Baston was nowhere NEAR as well defended as Courscant was when the Vong overan it. The Vong sent nothing more then a small task force to kick the IR hard enough to make sure they wouldn't be getting back up any time soon, nor get any ideas about trying to go attacking the Empires rear area.

The IR got slack, the fleet in the system reacted with a sloppy, slow reaction time, only Chimera and Pelleaon responded quickly and professionally. The local sector fleet by SPTO would have only had a dozen or so Star Destroyers, half them ISD's and probably a few hundred lesser ships, as well as that IR SSD which just got seen once then vanished into thin air, probably also a couple of Golan III's.

Courscant was way WAY more defended then that in Star by Star. The IR also had no real experience fighting the Vong apart from some early skirmishes against the vanguard forces that were really just probing and setting up a beachhead.
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Post by Thanas »

Chris OFarrell wrote:Baston was nowhere NEAR as well defended as Courscant was when the Vong overan it. The Vong sent nothing more then a small task force to kick the IR hard enough to make sure they wouldn't be getting back up any time soon, nor get any ideas about trying to go attacking the Empires rear area.

The IR got slack, the fleet in the system reacted with a sloppy, slow reaction time, only Chimera and Pelleaon responded quickly and professionally. The local sector fleet by SPTO would have only had a dozen or so Star Destroyers, half them ISD's and probably a few hundred lesser ships, as well as that IR SSD which just got seen once then vanished into thin air, probably also a couple of Golan III's.
Yes. But those facts are not in dispute, so why bring them up?

Of course Coruscant was more heavily defended. But Bastion was still a fortress world, and definitely one of the most heavily defended planets in the galaxy. Of course not on the level of Kuat, but still.

In regards to the SSD, it is possible that it is the heavily damaged Star Destroyer whose retreat Chimaera is guarding (and getting damaged herself in the process).
Courscant was way WAY more defended then that in Star by Star. The IR also had no real experience fighting the Vong apart from some early skirmishes against the vanguard forces that were really just probing and setting up a beachhead.
Ithor was a skirmish?
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

No it was NOT one of the most heavily defended worlds in the Galaxy, it was no more or less defended then any of a number of worlds the Vong rolled over easily. It just wasn't that big a target to take out tactically compared to any number of other worlds, but it was a significant target on the strategic level, especially if it was followed up with a hammer blow to the disorganized Imperial Fleets. Even better if they took out the shipyards at Yaga Minor in the bargin.

And yes, Ithor was a skirmish. There was a brief capital ship battle which broke up as soon as the allied capital ships figured out how to blow through the Vong defenses, nothing more or less, with minimal ships lost on both sides. Most of the action was groundside and even then it was small in scale.

The period after the fall of Courscant was mostly a period of consolidation and 'cleaning up' while the NR was utterly disorganized. The Vong used the time to send small task forces all over the Galaxy to quickly stamp out things they had 'put off doing' for some time. Strategically it was a very smart move...if it had worked, knocking out the IR and securing their very exposed rear areas would have been a great idea. The IR clearly was caught off guard.
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Post by Thanas »

And yes, Ithor was a skirmish. There was a brief capital ship battle which broke up as soon as the allied capital ships figured out how to blow through the Vong defenses, nothing more or less, with minimal ships lost on both sides. Most of the action was groundside and even then it was small in scale.
Sorry, but given what we usually have in the EU, a battle with over 19 capital ships on one side and the other side fielding a dreadnought-comparable ship does top most of the battles of the Thrawn campaign. Or are you saying Sluis Van was also a skirmish?
Strategically it was a very smart move...if it had worked, knocking out the IR and securing their very exposed rear areas would have been a great idea. The IR clearly was caught off guard.
Yes, because making new enemies when not having conquered the old ones is such a smart thing to do. Especially when the Remnant had no intention of attacking.

And given the Imperial reaction, they certainly did react more competently than the NR, which is quite a feat considering their limited resources.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Thanas wrote:
And yes, Ithor was a skirmish. There was a brief capital ship battle which broke up as soon as the allied capital ships figured out how to blow through the Vong defenses, nothing more or less, with minimal ships lost on both sides. Most of the action was groundside and even then it was small in scale.
Sorry, but given what we usually have in the EU, a battle with over 19 capital ships on one side and the other side fielding a dreadnought-comparable ship does top most of the battles of the Thrawn campaign. Or are you saying Sluis Van was also a skirmish?
Compared to the battles in the NJO? God yes. The Vong attacked Courscant with something like 10-30 thousand capital ships and the NR defended it with a fleet in the thousands, hundreds of orbital defense platforms and countless minefields, a running battle that took place over days.

MAJOR battles in the Vong war were a similar sort of scope. The Battle of Fondor comprised several major NR fleets and just as impressive forces on the Vong side of things. The Battle of Borialis when the Vong took the place involved far stronger defensive layouts then Bastion had. One of the preliminary skirmishes before the Courscant attack had something like 1000 NR ships against many times their number of Vong ships. Ebaq-9 just before the Vong hit the IR involved many thousands of ships on both sides at a minimum, probably more. All the major fleet actions in 'The Unifying force' made it look like a picnic.

In comparison, you can find actions on the scale of the Bastion battle all through the NJO books with similar numbers of ships.
Strategically it was a very smart move...if it had worked, knocking out the IR and securing their very exposed rear areas would have been a great idea. The IR clearly was caught off guard.
Yes, because making new enemies when not having conquered the old ones is such a smart thing to do.
The Vong had more then enough forces to roll over the IR any time they wanted, they did not BECAUSE they had more critical things to do. When they DID hit the IR, they hit it at a time when the NR was all but self destructing and after just enough time had passed to have the IR let their guard down. They DID blast the capital to hell, they DID damage the Imperial Navy quite heavily and they DID do it with only a minor amount of resources.

The IR represented an intact Government in their rear areas they had ignored because they didn't want to get involved, but they were a long term strategic risk that they COULD hit NOW and get out of the way, WHILE they had the resources to throw at them. They hadn't defeated the NR sure, but they HAD effectivly shattered their cohesion, letting them free up a lot of their line forces and hit all these nagging 'problems' they hadn't yet solved around the Galaxy.

The IR was one such problem. Not anything like big enough to warrant precious resources when fighting all out against the NR, but a big enough threat in a strategic enough location that when they WERE able to free up ships, they stomped them.

Especially when the Remnant had no intention of attacking.
So? The Vong want to TAKE the whole Galaxy, the IR are nothing more then infidels to be stomped on when they find it most convenient. Leaving them alone for even more time just gives them time to build more ships, more weapons, train more troops and get more and more powerful. Which means if and when the Vong finally take down the NR -and are weakened greatly in the process- the IR can come out firing.

Instead, they hit them when they least expected it...and would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those medaling Skywalkers.

Not to mention as Jacan pointed out in the book, the IR had helped the NR against the Vong by providing the Deep Core routes and there was a good chance Vong spies later told them exactly WHERE the information had come from, making it something of an unfriendly act.

And given the Imperial reaction, they certainly did react more competently than the NR, which is quite a feat considering their limited resources.
:wtf:

The Imperials got their asses KICKED by the Vong. They lost their capital due to a horribly sloppy fleet, they damn near self destructed when the Grand Admiral went MIA for a while, then they just fought a holding action against the fleet which, with the help of the Skywalkers, was actually successful. Then that minor Vong taskforce held up the IR's forces for months as Pelleon chased them all over that part of the Galaxy, then the Empire made a relativly minimal contribution to the war against them.

It was a risk to attack them, certainly. But it was a calculated one that wold have probably paid off except for some bad luck.
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Post by (name here) »

having opened my copy of remnant, i see that the borosk defense, which is the one i'm talking about, consisted of nine star destroyers, mines, planetary shields, and automated ground-based turboslasers, one Katana fleet style dreadnought, the jade shadow, luke in x-wing, at least one frigate, and some TIEs. twelve vong capital ships are mentioned at the start, but the rate at which the SDs kill capital ships vs. how long the battle takes leads me to believe that they were reinforced or not all of the ships were mentioned, as the defiant by itself crushes five plus during it's charge on the first yammosk while the other SDs are being pounded and the minefields are getting breached. confirmed odds: 4-3, attacker's favor.

coruscant odds: somewhere over a thousand vong ships of unknown description were hit by the NR while refueling, other half of the force was presumably the same size, six hundred captured freighters which served as shields and kamakazies, eight hundred NR ships were ready for action in that raid, unkown number of other ships were reactivated before the battle, same planetary defenses, but more and aided with golans. i think i've made my point.

as for the jedi, don't forget the shadow bombs, which could instantly kill any vong ship destroyable by a photon torpedo


EDIT: having read the battle scene in star by star again, the total vong numbers are in tens of thousands, but the defence fleet is massively reinforced, so it's not clear how big the disparity is.
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