Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

[Singular Quartet]

Eh, I think we'd prefer new B-52s, simply so that we can supplement our existing force. Makes more sense to build more of an existing bomber than an all new bomber. As has been stated, we'd need to build the equipment to build the bombers, but I personally have to ask why the forge was scrapped in the first place...

[Stuart]

I've been skipping big chunks of most of the latest chapters since it's basically all meatgrinder fluff. Maybe I'm missing something of the appeal, but I liked it more when the story was actually going somewhere in the earlier chapters.

The meat-grinder is crucial to what happens later in the story; its necessary to show in detail just how outgunned the demonic forces are so that their actions later fall into context.

I suggest the scientists in the Randi group express disbelief at the idea of Nephlim (as I'm doing right now), and continue to regard said idea suspiciously until the solution becomes evident. A possibility, which I do not know if it is possible due to not knowing enough about the biology involved, is that if a pregnant woman has sex with a demon, the demon's seed causes chemical changes on the fetus which make it a Nephlim. If this fetus is female, the changes in its body chemistry will in turn cause any of her children to be Nephlim as well. Again, though, I just made this up and have no idea if it's plausible.

Hey, I'm a targeteer not a biologist.... What I had in mind was something a bit more subtle than that. My working hypothesis is that demons and humans are actually somewhat related but the catch is that demons have a symbiotic virus that infiltrates their DNA and corrupts it - the different strains of demon being different versions of that virus - so, when a succubus mates with a human male, (on an incubus witha human female) they're not so much fertilizing it as infecting it. As generations go down the line, the virus becomes attenuated and largely dormant but its still there.

I am working with somebody elses mythology here you know If I was dreaming this up from scratch, there wouldn;t be all these hastily-wallpapered holes.

If Petraeus loses 5000 men, he will be sacked even in a situation like this. If he loses a thousand he will be sacked. If he loses several hundred he is in danger of being sacked. It's got to be limited to equipment failures, friendly fire incidents and the odd death or CNN, Fox News and everybody else will be on his case like a virgin on a girlfriend. Petraeus did not use the full arsenal. That could easily be spun into Petraeus is incompetent by... anybody.

Actually no. Americans can take relatively high casualty rates as long as they can be seen to be getting us somewhere The problem with Iraq, Vietnam and (to a certain extent) Korea was that the casualty toll was going up with no discernable sign of progress. This situation is different. An enemy army that hugely outnumbers our people is being methodically smashed to pieces and massacred with a hugely disproportionate casualty list - like two orders of magnitude plus. That, we can live with. We did in WW2.

Part of me's wondering... who is it that saw Abigor on his mount, and how did they see him?

Seen from a Global Hawk orbiting the battlefield about 50,000 feet up. He was out of range of direct fire weapon (the 120mm L44 on the Abrams has a significantly shorter range than the 120mm L55 on the Challenger II).

That said, I really hope Luga's description of how to open a portal ('radio telepathy with the power cranked up') is either ignorance or deliberate misinformation. The absolute physical implausibility isn't so much the issue, it's the fact that humans haven't found any trace of such an effect despite many decades of experimentation with all manner of high-power EM transmissions. If you must technobabble this, please consider using a higher grade of technobabble than 'it involves quantum entanglement'.

Luga's trying to explain something she doesn't understand herself. It's like asking a nightclub gogo dancer how her leg muscles work. It's something that comes naturally to her so she doesn't really think about it. The way I have this figured is that the demons have an electric-eel like bio-electric generator built into them that they can tap for power. We've seen them use it to charge their bronze tridents so they can shoot a bolt of electricity. Now, the barrier between the dimensions has some of the properties of barrage jamming so it requires a lot of signal to burn through it. The more we burn through, the more we can get through. Now, there is a problem, teh energy gradient is against us so we need a lot more power to burn through to the demon dimension than they need to burn through to us.

Why wasn't the signal picked up before? Because nobody knew what to look for and the people capable of looking seriously didn't bother with it. Once we had The Message and we knew there was something to look for, we were able to bring a lot more brainpower to bear on the problem. We set up a situation where a victim was in a room masked out from all other forms of radiation and we monitored it for every conceivable type of radiation. Right up in a weird part of the spectrum nobody ever uses we hit an unfamiliar signal. That gave us something to measure and duplicate.

Also, we're still not sure how this works; note that kitten and Julie have different capabilities and nobody is sure why. At the moment, Randi, Surlethe etc are floundering around trying to make things work as best they can. They're giving names to things so they can talk about them, formulating theories and testing them against what they can observe, modfyng their theories, and retesting. At the same time they're trying to get things they don't really understand to practical use.

As I said, have a heart, I'm working with somebody elses mythology here......

I think we'd prefer new B-52s, simply so that we can supplement our existing force. Makes more sense to build more of an existing bomber than an all new bomber. As has been stated, we'd need to build the equipment to build the bombers, but I personally have to ask why the forge was scrapped in the first place

Problem is we can't build B-52s any more. The wing spar is a solid forging and the last mill that could build it was scrapped decades ago. We can build B-1s and B-2s, the tooling for them is still in storage. Not B-52s though. The forge was scrapped because there was no other use for it, we didn't think we would need any more B-52s so keeping it was a waste of money.

[Academia Nut]

I'm not a biologist, but you could handily side-step the whole genetics thing by saying that all first generation Nephilim are female and thus any 'interbreeding' between humans and demons or angels is caused by a sexually transmitted virus causing the activation of unfertilized eggs, with the final stage of meiosis being incomplete so that the child has a full set of 23 pairs of chromosomes. Since there is no way to get a Y out of this sort of thing, all first generation Nephilim would have to be female. The virus would have to be retroviral of course to get bits of demon DNA into the human genome, and since retroviruses are notoriously finicky it might explain some of the stories of weirdness around such hybrids. I could easily see genetic damage leading to chromosomally female fetuses having an excess of testosterone, perhaps leading them being phenotypically male (or at least as far as a bronze age witch doctor can tell anyway) if sterile and prone to violent outbursts accompanied by enhanced strength.

Spookily enough this could also provide a reason for kitten beyond being messed in the head from seeing hell in that the unstable portions editted by the virus so many generations ago could lead to an increase in transgenderism. I'm sure someone with better biological background would shoot this idea down, but it at least looks plausible enough on the surface for said person to perhaps correct and expand upon this theory.

[JCady]

kitten is transexual, not transgender per se, and I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of saying transgenderism is demonic in nature.

[phongn]

kitten is transexual, not transgender per se, and I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of saying transgenderism is demonic in nature.

Demonic Ancestry may imply increased transgenderism, but that doesn't imply the reverse.

[Academia Nut]

Yes, I was very careful to try and couch my words carefully to avoid implying that all transgendered and transsexual individuals have ties to demonic 'ancestry' (although the proposed mechanism wouldn't actually have demons being ancestors) merely that part of my theory could predict for some such incidences. If I remember correctly, the Nephilim were originally quite violent, which could easily be tied to run-away testosterone production caused by genetic damage, which would screw up gender identity in affected individuals. That kitten may or may not fall within this theoretical framework is merely an additional point to think about and within the context of the story perhaps a point of evidence in favour. I am by no means saying that any transgendered individuals are the results of a 'disease from Hell', especially not in real life although the fact that this story involves an invasion from Hell can allow for a certain degree of suspension of disbelief. We know that demonic ancestry messes people up, it may just have multiple damage mechanisms, that's all.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Yes, I was very careful to try and couch my words carefully to avoid implying that all transgendered and transsexual individuals have ties to demonic 'ancestry' (although the proposed mechanism wouldn't actually have demons being ancestors) merely that part of my theory could predict for some such incidences. If I remember correctly, the Nephilim were originally quite violent, which could easily be tied to run-away testosterone production caused by genetic damage, which would screw up gender identity in affected individuals. That kitten may or may not fall within this theoretical framework is merely an additional point to think about and within the context of the story perhaps a point of evidence in favour. I am by no means saying that any transgendered individuals are the results of a 'disease from Hell', especially not in real life although the fact that this story involves an invasion from Hell can allow for a certain degree of suspension of disbelief. We know that demonic ancestry messes people up, it may just have multiple damage mechanisms, that's all.

kitten is a real person and this was my tribute to her, so, be gentle. Suffice to say there's no real correlation between the two: I just happened to have once had a roommate who was a schizophrenic transexual who said she could see Hell. The best part is the Hell she described was where everyone went, and those words about the best part of it are, paraphrased, nonetheless exactly her's. Since transexualism is--despite being a structural defect of the brain (in the BSTc region)--not really diagnosable at the moment except through brain patterns, it happens to be that one of the things generally considered factual is that schizophrenics are usually not considered acceptable candidates for transition. To much interference. So kitten is actually quite rare, at least in American medical considerations on the subject.

We do have one clear indication of Nephilim ancestry--schizophrenia. That is the line of investigation.

[JCady]

Since transexualism is--despite being a structural defect of the brain (in the BSTc region)--not really diagnosable at the moment except through brain patterns, it happens to be that one of the things generally considered factual is that schizophrenics are usually not considered acceptable candidates for transition. To much interference.

That is not proven. Pardon me for jumping on you so aggressively over this, but it's a pet peeve of mine. BSTc Brain Intersexuality is a very shaky theory based on a handful of pilot studies which looked at a tiny handful of male-to-female transexuals; that sample size is far, far, too low to make any definitive conclusion.

[Darth Fanboy]

God this fic gives me an awesome idea for a side story I would love to see the authors write.

it would be titled "Hell, Michigan" and it would focus on a Nephilim who opened a portal to allow a pair of demons to cross over. The demons, attempting to disguise their identities, would then have to learn to deal with the cold weather and such and be annoyed for the entire time. Perhaps they would get derailed in their efforts to learn about human culture and such through the miracles of human hallucinogenics.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That is not proven. Pardon me for jumping on you so aggressively over this, but it's a pet peeve of mine. BSTc Brain Intersexuality is a very shaky theory based on a handful of pilot studies which looked at a tiny handful of male-to-female transexuals; that sample size is far, far, too low to make any definitive conclusion.

You're asking to much, when the overall population that's being studied is so ludicrously low (and the only effective method to study this region is dissection of the brain). It's not shaky at all, either, considering the studies done, which were very rigorous and had a variety of factors controlled for (hormonal influence, etc), didn't show any deviation from the pattern at all--all the transexuals had a female BSTc size, all the males had a male BSTc size, regardless of hormonal influence. Conclusions have been drawn based off of studies which had greater rates of deviation than, y'know, zero. It's also the only working theory at the moment which is based off of science. Analytical psychology is a pseudoscience that has no merit in any sort of quantitative scientific discussion.

Rigorous scientific research has provided a working theory; it may be inaccurate, but for the moment, we can operate based upon it, as we have nothing better. This is a fundamental part of the process of scientific knowledge (which to bring this remotely back on topic, is crucial to this story). You go with the best theory possible according to the known, objective facts and operate on the premise it is correct until a better theory comes along which allows you to refine your knowledge. Since before this the only people working on this subject were psychologists, and psychology completely disregards all tenets of the scientific method, the other "theories" of transsexualism don't even deserve that title, they're just the wild speculation of a bunch of philosophers arrogant enough to think that they can use their philosophy to treat illnesses of the brain.

[JCady]

That is not proven. Pardon me for jumping on you so aggressively over this, but it's a pet peeve of mine. BSTc Brain Intersexuality is a very shaky theory based on a handful of pilot studies which looked at a tiny handful of male-to-female transexuals; that sample size is far, far, too low to make any definitive conclusion.

A sample size of 18 patients out of a population of tens of thousands worldwide makes it "interesting hypothesis", not "definitive theory".

It's not shaky at all, either, considering the studies done, which were very rigorous and had a variety of factors controlled for (hormonal influence, etc), didn't show any deviation from the pattern at all--all the transexuals had a female BSTc size, all the males had a male BSTc size, regardless of hormonal influence.

Two studies of the same twelve patients and one study of six patients are not definitive. The generally accepted minimum even for a pilot study is 30 subjects, and a pilot study is by definition merely a preliminary study designed to test whether or not a real study should be performed at all.

Rigorous scientific research has provided a working theory; it may be inaccurate, but for the moment, we can operate based upon it, as we have nothing better.

It is valid to say that it's a legitimate scientific theory, but it is frankly ludicrous to assert that all transexuals as a whole have miswired brains based on studies done on a group which is not even within several orders of magnitude of being a representative sample. It may or may not be true, but the evidence is simply grossly insufficient.

[Brovane]

It should be noted that it'll be essentially impossible for most of the reactivated divisions to be anything other than light infantry. The expensive part of a light infantry division is the people, which we have a lot of. Guns are cheap, even the medium machine guns that will be issued like candy. Heavy divisions, like the 4ID, require IFVs and tanks, which are expensive in terms of capital, and take a while to produce.

Actually for the US there is quite a bit of Heavy Equipment laying around not being used. The US produced around 8,000 Abrams tanks for US forces alone and less than 2,000 are actively used. Because of the draw down in Active duty forces after the cold war and because of the Soviet threat a lot more Abrams tank were produced than just what was needed to flesh out the T&O of the Divisions that used them. Also several other Middle East countries like Egypt (1,000+ M1A1), Kuwait (200+ M1A2) and Saudi Arabia (300+ M1A2) have Abrams in there inventories. Even M1 Abrams with older 105mm Cannon can still be effective against demons. The equipment is there it is more of matter of finding people that can use the equipment effectively, transporting it to the battle location and then keeping the units effectively supplied. I would imagine that the Russians have literally thousands of T series tanks probably all the way from T-34 /85 to T-80 tanks sitting in depots waiting to be called into battle. Really this battle is going to be all about logistics and the ability of the allies to keep a steady supply of Ammo and fuel going to the Divisions that are on the front line. In the battles with the Demons the Allies are looking like they really eat through Ammo quickly.

Of course I would also imagine the US has deployed B-2 bombers to Diego Garcia loaded with nuclear gravity bombs ready to nuke the gate opening if things start to get out of control. Unfortunately it looks like the TALM-N were destroyed in order to comply with the SALT treaty. I would imagine sending a TALM-N flying into hell bringing with it a 200 kiloton nuclear warhead would be a nasty surprise. So far I would imagine that the Allies are keeping a leash on the nuclear weapons because they don't want to tip there hand as to the existence of this destructive potential yet to the Demons. Of course if it looks like the Middle East is going to get over run by Demons the Israeli's are going to have nasty surprise of Instant sunshine ready.

[Stuart]

Even M1 Abrams with older 105mm Cannon can still be effective against demons. The equipment is there it is more of matter of finding people that can use the equipment effectively, transporting it to the battle location and then keeping the units effectively supplied.

Unfortunately, all the original M1 Abrams have been upgraded to 120mm armament by now (I called and checked). I say unfortunately because the 105mm version carried about 30 percent more ammunition than the 120mm gun variants and the big problem is, as you say, keeping units supplied. You can be sure the Russians are emptying their tank laagers as fast as they can drag crews in off the street.

"Tovarish, you are a fine taxi cab driver. We promote you to be a tank driver."

"But I don't want to drive a tank"

"Yes you do."

LOgistics is a HUGE problem. We'll be coming to one section of that shortly.

[Adrian Laguna]

You can be sure the Russians are emptying their tank laagers as fast as they can drag crews in off the street.

If there is one thing Mother Russia can do, it is mobilizing utterly huge numbers of troops all at once and equip them for battle. They pretty much spent most of the first half of the 20th century doing it until it was perfected into almost an art form.

[KlavoHunter]

So does this mean that Russia will be mobilizing its Class D divisions when they run out of equipment for A, B, and C?

[MKSheppard]

Unfortunately, all the original M1 Abrams have been upgraded to 120mm armament by now (I called and checked).

GDLS just got a contract to convert all of the remaining M1A1s to M1A2 SEP v2s by 2014.

[Beowulf]

Actually for the US there is quite a bit of Heavy Equipment laying around not being used. The US produced around 8,000 Abrams tanks for US forces alone and less than 2,000 are actively used. Because of the draw down in Active duty forces after the cold war and because of the Soviet threat a lot more Abrams tank were produced than just what was needed to flesh out the T&O of the Divisions that used them. Also several other Middle East countries like Egypt (1,000+ M1A1), Kuwait (200+ M1A2) and Saudi Arabia (300+ M1A2) have Abrams in there inventories.

How well has the equipment been maintained? Is it even maintained? I'm fairly certain some of them have been cannibalized. Even though the equipment exists, there's no guarantee that it'll actually be serviceable. You'll need to refurbish them, which will take time. And after you're done with them all, you'll still need to build more.

[Chris OFarrell]

There must be a number of massive commercial freighters that can be liberated for military use to haul munitions across to the primary theater.

I mean with a significant amount of the worlds population just dropping dead, there must be a significant drop off in the need to haul a lot of stuff around the world, probably quite a few ships flagged under more then a few suddenly 'underpopulated' nations that can be liberated for cargo use.

And I'm guessing that there is probably going to be a crash program to restart nuclear warhead production in the major powers like Russia and the US, massively upgrading and rebuilding the stockpiles of tactical nuclear weapons, albeit with more modern, sophisticated designs. Especially after our first defector lets slip just how many demons Hell has under arms...

[JBG]

As to stockpiles of military equipment it would be difficult to make a really general statement. The US probably has reasonably large stocks, a good proportion of which would be, after some refurbishment but not too much, ready for use. Crew training would take longer. The Russians probably have huge stocks but even in the best of times maintenance of such assets was not a Russian strongpoint. They do have lower standards in some respects so would not bother with some refurbishment that the US would consider necessary. The UK probably sold off most of their stockpiles under some daft short sighted political plan like selling off the Army's stocks of desert camo uniforms just before Desert Storm - and to the Iraqis!

The problems to face in the near future at least are, as Stuart said, logistics and the extent to which the demons as a whole, not just Abigor, can learn from their recent experiences.

As to logistics, the priorities seem to be ammo, food and water then POL as the major POL debit seems to come from transporting the first two groups. Transport is working OK so ammo production as shown with the AIM-120s is an issue. Then again, a lot of hard/expensive to produce armaments are significantly beyond spec for the current enemy or at least such of the enemy that has been encountered.

The outcome of the just started battle of Hit should indicate whether non-armoured ground formations require extensive re-equipping, thereby placing further strain on the production and distribution of arms and ammo. If modern rifle calibre ammo - 20 or so shots to take down a demon through loss of blood when you are outnumbered is not a profitable use of humans, if that is what happens at Hit - is insufficient then the standard infantry weapon needs to be beefed up somehow or small unit tactics have to be modified whereby, for instance and just a thought off the top of my head, rather than the SAW etc supporting the squad, the squad supports the automatic weapon in a formation whose TOE contains far more SAW, GPMG ( of 7.62 mm ), grenade launchers, .50 and mortars than normal. Perhaps some flamethrowers would impress the folks back home at Hell GHQ and all those places where the legions of hell "cool" their heels between engagements. Combat shotguns for close in work as sub-machine guns are looking a little flaccid.

As to Abigor - he does seem to be most perceptive. Would be the best they have? Perhaps unlikely as he was given 60 out of 6,666 legions and a supposedly easy task. Their mentality of warfare means that it has not yet occurred to him to pass detailed appreciations of the situation back to GHQ. Maybe it is best that he is captured. He'll die otherwise in all probability and soon.

Jonathan

[PainRack]

There must be a number of massive commercial freighters that can be liberated for military use to haul munitions across to the primary theater.

I mean with a significant amount of the worlds population just dropping dead, there must be a significant drop off in the need to haul a lot of stuff around the world, probably quite a few ships flagged under more then a few suddenly 'underpopulated' nations that can be liberated for cargo use.

And I'm guessing that there is probably going to be a crash program to restart nuclear warhead production in the major powers like Russia and the US, massively upgrading and rebuilding the stockpiles of tactical nuclear weapons, albeit with more modern, sophisticated designs. Especially after our first defector lets slip just how many demons Hell has under arms...

That may actually cause more problems than it solve. Depending on the percentage of people who died off, the disruption in infrastructure and transportation will actually require MORE transport, as cities shuffle supplies and stockpiles to make up for expected shortfalls due to temporary disruption.
Beside, it seems that the problem won't be transport, but rather, stockpiles of expendables and parts.

I wonder whether we will see a revival of ancestor worship.

[Darth Yoshi]

Doubtful. People are in hell, but that doesn't mean they can effect the lower planes.

[tedisbest]

I'm not a biologist, but you could handily side-step the whole genetics thing by saying that all first generation Nephilim are female and thus any 'interbreeding' between humans and demons or angels is caused by a sexually transmitted virus causing the activation of unfertilized eggs, with the final stage of meiosis being incomplete so that the child has a full set of 23 pairs of chromosomes. Since there is no way to get a Y out of this sort of thing, all first generation Nephilim would have to be female. The virus would have to be retroviral of course to get bits of demon DNA into the human genome, and since retroviruses are notoriously finicky it might explain some of the stories of weirdness around such hybrids. I could easily see genetic damage leading to chromosomally female fetuses having an excess of testosterone, perhaps leading them being phenotypically male (or at least as far as a bronze age witch doctor can tell anyway) if sterile and prone to violent outbursts accompanied by enhanced strength.

A way around that would be that demon sperm does not fertilize human eggs. The virus in the semen would simply infect the eggs, while a human male would still be necessary to complete the process. For example: Incubus uses mind trick to mate with human female, and later on the human female mates with a human male. In the case of succubi, they pass the virus and infect the human male's spermatocytes.

Alternatively, if demons are engineered creatures designed to mate with humans, I suppose their genome might consist of a set of human-compatible chromosomes (2 DH), and a set of demon-only chromosomes (2 DE). Their gametes would contain (DE DH). If fertilizing a human gamete (containing HU), in the resulting (DE DH HU) zygote DE would somehow be inactive, would not replicate, and degenerate after a few rounds of mitosis, resulting in a (DH HU) Nephilim human. (2 DE 2 DH) would result from demon x demon, and create another demon.

[Brovane]

There must be a number of massive commercial freighters that can be liberated for military use to haul munitions across to the primary theater.

I mean with a significant amount of the worlds population just dropping dead, there must be a significant drop off in the need to haul a lot of stuff around the world, probably quite a few ships flagged under more then a few suddenly 'underpopulated' nations that can be liberated for cargo use.

And I'm guessing that there is probably going to be a crash program to restart nuclear warhead production in the major powers like Russia and the US, massively upgrading and rebuilding the stockpiles of tactical nuclear weapons, albeit with more modern, sophisticated designs. Especially after our first defector lets slip just how many demons Hell has under arms...

That may actually cause more problems than it solve. Depending on the percentage of people who died off, the disruption in infrastructure and transportation will actually require MORE transport, as cities shuffle supplies and stockpiles to make up for expected shortfalls due to temporary disruption.
Beside, it seems that the problem won't be transport, but rather, stockpiles of expendables and parts.

I wonder whether we will see a revival of ancestor worship.

I think initially it is going to be a process of getting munitions into the theater of operations quickly. The US can call up a significant amount of air freight to start moving supplies. I see maybe a large disruption in goods that travel by air freight now having to go by sea or land when before they were air lifted. The good thing is that the US military is one of the top armies in regards to logistics. Basically if you are going to get into a fight with the US and the core of the battle revolves around logistics you are going to loose. Also the US has significant infrastructure in place in the Middle East to bring in supplies. What will also help is probably having access now to every logistics hub as necessary in the Middle East. If you need to use a airfield in Iran to land 747 Air Freighters loaded with ammo I am sure the Iranians are going to have no problem making every accommodation necessary.

So when does the Russian units arrive? I assume a overland movement from Russia through Iran. Also I would think that the other NATO countries like the Germans will start supplying units. The Germans also have significant stocks of Leopard 2 tanks that should be available to be pressed into service. Maybe the French will kick in a few units.

As far as aircraft I see the US. I believe that the F-15E and F-16 production lines are still going so they should be easy to crank up along with the F-22. I see the F-35 being pushed to the back burner because it isn't immediately available. I am not sure about starting the B-2 line again. The B-2 seems to be a fairly intensive air craft to produce both in raw material resources and man power resources. The main advantage of the B-2 is Stealth and if the Demons don't use radar then is there much use for a stealth air craft? I didn't realize that all the tooling was still around to start B1 production again if necessary. If the tooling is around this might be a better use of resources.

[Xess]

I'd think you'd see that AA-12 shotgun being put into service as fast as possible for infantry. Especially with its mini-grenade ammo.

[JCady]

I'd think you'd see that AA-12 shotgun being put into service as fast as possible for infantry. Especially with its mini-grenade ammo.

The FRAG-12 explosive shells are not unique to the AA-12 assault shotgun; they're standard 12-gauge shells which can be used with any shotgun.