[WH40k] Black Templar research questions

[Crom]

I was planning out a fan-fiction involving a company of Black Templars and their space ship that are sent to another universe. But before I could start I realized I needed to know some specifics.

1) What are the rankings within the Black Templars?

2) How do Space Marines interact with the crews of a warship? Are the crews serfs of the Black Templars or are they IoM space navy forces?

3) Do the Black Templars have support troops akin to IG?

4) Would the Adeptus Mechanicus have tech-priest representatives on the warship?

5) How hard-line are the Black Templars? Are they a kill the psyker on sight kind of people? How do they get around the communication networks that rely on psykers?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

1. Ranks are something roughly like this:

• Neophyte (not fully transformed)
• Initiate
• Sword Brother
• Castellan (leads a fighting company)
• Marshall
• High Marshall of the Black Templar

2. Chapter fleets are wholly owned and operated by the Chapter and are independent of the Navy. Often they are crewed by serfs and servitors, but sometimes Space Marines may fulfill important positions such as captain.

3. Not to my knowledge. They're notoriously extremist and it's unlikely anyone short of another Templar would measure up to their standards.

4. Just the Techmarines, who are seconded to Mars anyway.

5. Exceedingly. Far more so than most Monodominant Inquisitors, for example. There is a report in the BT Codex about how they exterminated an entire planet's population for being too weak to resist their Chaos conquerers, or something to that effect. And they most certainly abhor the witch and have a violent reaction to their presence. Presumably they barely tolerate astropaths.[/list]

[Crom]

1. Ranks are something roughly like this:

• Neophyte (not fully transformed)
• Initiate
• Sword Brother
• Castellan (leads a fighting company)
• Marshall
• High Marshall of the Black Templar

2. Chapter fleets are wholly owned and operated by the Chapter and are independent of the Navy. Often they are crewed by serfs and servitors, but sometimes Space Marines may fulfill important positions such as captain.

3. Not to my knowledge. They're notoriously extremist and it's unlikely anyone short of another Templar would measure up to their standards.

4. Just the Techmarines, who are seconded to Mars anyway.

5. Exceedingly. Far more so than most Monodominant Inquisitors, for example. There is a report in the BT Codex about how they exterminated an entire planet's population for being too weak to resist their Chaos conquerers, or something to that effect. And they most certainly abhor the witch and have a violent reaction to their presence. Presumably they barely tolerate astropaths.[/list]

Thanks, that helps a lot!

I had two more questions on issues that may affect the plot:

1) Are Emperor's Champions part of the chain of command?

2) How willing are the BTs to convert a population to Emperor worship? Or, upon contact with a group of humans who do not worship the Emperor, would they put them to the sword and flamer?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

1. Not as such. They are chosen on the eve of any particular major battle by the Chaplains, as a Marine will step forth claiming visions from the Emperor. They 'lead' the Black Templars only in a martial sense.

2. Cleanse; Purge; Kill.

[Connor MacLeod]

2) How do Space Marines interact with the crews of a warship? Are the crews serfs of the Black Templars or are they IoM space navy forces?

I dunno about the Black Templars, but for the most part they always seem to be Serfs. The BFG materials always indicated they were serfs, with Space Marines as officers, and every instance I can think of generally have serfs. The sole exception being the Grey Knights, who seem to use Inquisitional crews (but the Grey Knights are exceptions to the Astartes in many respects anyhow.)

3) Do the Black Templars have support troops akin to IG?

Only their serfs, really. The IG can be seconded to Space MArine chapterS (IE Ciaphas cain) and some Space Marine planets (IE Ultramar) will raise IG regiments that seem to fight alongside Space Marines (I remember reading that about Ultramar - its supposed to be another indication of Just How Great they are and JHG Guilliman was.)

In cases where battle is expected, the Serfs are given alot of training and equipment that may be considered better than Guard standard. Mainly for boarding actions. Do note that many Space Marine vessels, however, tend to be much more automated than their Imperial Navy counterparts, and thus have smaller crews (hundreds as oppopsed to thousands.)

In other respects you might treat Scouts as "supportt" troops in some ways - they're not full battle brothers and (at leas in some Chapters) their numbers aren't as restrticted, so you might have more of them. But probably not a huge number and not many in frontline (Since they are basically replacement Marines, after all.)

Some chapters do have combat servitors as well, so I suppose they coudl employ those if needed, but I've only ever seen them as training devices rather than combatants.

5) How hard-line are the Black Templars? Are they a kill the psyker on sight kind of people? How do they get around the communication networks that rely on psykers?

I don't think they KILL psykers outright, but they're not forgiving of them at all. They barely tolerate other Imperium psykers and the slightest hint of corruption will make them seek to destroy the source (This happens in one of the Armageddon Black Templar novels - they turn and fight another Space Marine chapter suspected of corruption.)

There really is no other way to use reliable long range communication without astropaths and no way to navigate the warp reliably over long distancees without a Navigator, so they're forced by necessity to accept them. Especially as Black Templars are one of the large, very mobile, crusading chapters. IT would still suck to be a psyker on a BT ship, though.

[Connor MacLeod]

2. Cleanse; Purge; Kill.

Depends on the world (or writer, I suppose.) Not much "purging or killing" has gone on in any of the Black Templars I've seen written about. In fact they come off across as rather more approachable and nicer to other people (and planets) than alot of other chapters Icould name *cougcoughDarkAngelscoughcough*

I suppose the main factor is going to be just how "corrupted" they are perceived to be.

[Sidewinder]

They barely tolerate other Imperium psykers and the slightest hint of corruption will make them seek to destroy the source (This happens in one of the Armageddon Black Templar novels - they turn and fight another Space Marine chapter suspected of corruption.)

Can you provide the title of this novel? I'd like to read about that action myself.

[Lancer]

Conquest of Armageddon

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I'm pretty sure it's actually Crusade for Armageddon. I've read Conquest for Armageddon, and I don't remember anything like that. I mostly remember a BT dreadnought kicking some serious ork ass, and a Forgeworld (tm) Giant Squiggoth showing up at some point.

[Lancer]

Sorry, you're probably right.

The Black Templar do have their moments however:
"No my lord. If you judge me impure, if the sin of pride taints my heart and my lips, I willingly submit myself to your keen-edged mercy. Although-"
"Yes?"
"I would lament that I could no longer serve the Emperor."

[Kuja]

"TANKRED HEARS YOUR BLOODY RACKET! IT HAS WOKEN TANKRED UP!"

[Crom]

Thanks again for answering my questions!

1. Not as such. They are chosen on the eve of any particular major battle by the Chaplains, as a Marine will step forth claiming visions from the Emperor. They 'lead' the Black Templars only in a martial sense.

So an Emperor's Champion in one battle will not necessarily be the same Marine in a different battle later on?

2. Cleanse; Purge; Kill.

Well, you can't fault them for their consistency. Do Black Templars ever care if, say, they are outnumbered? Or would they "Cleanse;Purge;Kill," no matter the circumstance?

[Crom]

I dunno about the Black Templars, but for the most part they always seem to be Serfs. The BFG materials always indicated they were serfs, with Space Marines as officers, and every instance I can think of generally have serfs. The sole exception being the Grey Knights, who seem to use Inquisitional crews (but the Grey Knights are exceptions to the Astartes in many respects anyhow.)

Are these serfs in the traditional sense of the word? I mean, are they and their families basically property of the Chapter? Could a Marine's descendants be among the serf families serving the Chapter?

Only their serfs, really. The IG can be seconded to Space MArine chapterS (IE Ciaphas cain) and some Space Marine planets (IE Ultramar) will raise IG regiments that seem to fight alongside Space Marines (I remember reading that about Ultramar - its supposed to be another indication of Just How Great they are and JHG Guilliman was.)

In cases where battle is expected, the Serfs are given alot of training and equipment that may be considered better than Guard standard. Mainly for boarding actions. Do note that many Space Marine vessels, however, tend to be much more automated than their Imperial Navy counterparts, and thus have smaller crews (hundreds as oppopsed to thousands.)

In other respects you might treat Scouts as "supportt" troops in some ways - they're not full battle brothers and (at leas in some Chapters) their numbers aren't as restrticted, so you might have more of them. But probably not a huge number and not many in frontline (Since they are basically replacement Marines, after all.)

Some chapters do have combat servitors as well, so I suppose they coudl employ those if needed, but I've only ever seen them as training devices rather than combatants.

Thanks, I was trying to get an idea of the resources available outside the Space Marines themselves. Armed serfs sounds fairly plausible, considering that the Black Templars are always on aggressive footing. Back to the topic of automation, would the Techmarines be responsible for maintaining their warships? And what do they call computers?

I don't think they KILL psykers outright, but they're not forgiving of them at all. They barely tolerate other Imperium psykers and the slightest hint of corruption will make them seek to destroy the source (This happens in one of the Armageddon Black Templar novels - they turn and fight another Space Marine chapter suspected of corruption.)

There really is no other way to use reliable long range communication without astropaths and no way to navigate the warp reliably over long distancees without a Navigator, so they're forced by necessity to accept them. Especially as Black Templars are one of the large, very mobile, crusading chapters. IT would still suck to be a psyker on a BT ship, though.

Do the Black Templars also hate mutants like Navigators and Ratlings?

Oh, and would it be believable to have a highly literate Black Templar? It sounds less and less likely the more I learn about them. What books are available for scholars, anyway, in the 40th millennium?

[Kuja]

So an Emperor's Champion in one battle will not necessarily be the same Marine in a different battle later on?

Most likely not.

Well, you can't fault them for their consistency. Do Black Templars ever care if, say, they are outnumbered? Or would they "Cleanse;Purge;Kill," no matter the circumstance?

They follow their tactics like any good marines, but if the situation is unresovable, they willingly fight to the last man rather than retreat.

On the tabletop, this is represented by the Templars charging towards an enemy when they fail a leadership test, as opposed to breaking and running.

[Crom]

Depends on the world (or writer, I suppose.) Not much "purging or killing" has gone on in any of the Black Templars I've seen written about. In fact they come off across as rather more approachable and nicer to other people (and planets) than alot of other chapters Icould name *cougcoughDarkAngelscoughcough*

I suppose the main factor is going to be just how "corrupted" they are perceived to be.

I was envisioning circumstances where the population is ignorant of the Cult of the Emperor and also of Chaos worship.

The original idea had the Black Templars ending up in Catherine Asaro's Skolian universe and running afoul of the Eubian Empire (Link to Wiki). But I'm beginning to suspect that's a bit too ambitious for me at the moment. Even so I'd like to work something together about the Black Templars.

[Kuja]

Are these serfs in the traditional sense of the word? I mean, are they and their families basically property of the Chapter? Could a Marine's descendants be among the serf families serving the Chapter?

Yes, they belong entirely to the Chapter. The vast majority of serfs are men who failed the exams to become a marine for one reason or another and survived.

Do the Black Templars also hate mutants like Navigators and Ratlings?

Oh, and would it be believable to have a highly literate Black Templar? It sounds less and less likely the more I learn about them. What books are available for scholars, anyway, in the 40th millennium?

They tolerate navigators, seeing as they have no choice. As for literacy, Marshall Brant in the BT books keeps up a running exchange with a local inquisitor. He seems perfectly eloquent on paper, so take that as you will.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Well, you can't fault them for their consistency. Do Black Templars ever care if, say, they are outnumbered? Or would they "Cleanse;Purge;Kill," no matter the circumstance?

Some quotes from Codex: BT just to get the general vibe here:

RIGHTEOUS ZEAL
Whilst most Space Marines under heavy fire or facing insurmountable odds in close combat will retreat, read to counter-attack, the Black Templars will often hurl themselves at the enemy with even greater determination and fervent anger, their own casualties only serving to spur them on faster, hungry for vengeance on the slayers of their brethren.

KILL THEM ALL
Black Templars are so zealous in their persecution of the enemies of the Emperor that they will often try to kill the nearest enemy to them, even when shooting a more distant enemy might be more tactically sound.

NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!
Black Templars battle brothers fight with righteous anger and are loath to retreat before an enemy. When in an assault, all Black Templars units are Fearless.

(pg 23)

In short: If you write BTs as crazy, suicidal, bloodthirsty lunatics... you're probably not writing enough sanguine, suicidal lunacy yet.

[Lost Soal]

Are these serfs in the traditional sense of the word? I mean, are they and their families basically property of the Chapter? Could a Marine's descendants be among the serf families serving the Chapter?

Yes, they belong entirely to the Chapter. The vast majority of serfs are men who failed the exams to become a marine for one reason or another and survived.

I believe they would actually be in the minority of serfs. A chapters serfs are almost always described as hereditary serfs so the chapter must pull some families from time to time, indoctrinate them and put them to work

[Kuja]

Going back and checking, you're right, I was remembering wrong.

[Shroom Man 777]

Conquest of Armageddon

I have that book and they really did turn on a group of morally ambiguous Relictors (was it?) who were acting suspicious and wanted to use Chaos artifacts and stuff as their own, to learn from Chaos and use it for the benefit of the Imperium (the usual lies of heresy!).

NO REMORSE! NO PITY! NO FEAR!

[Crom]

So an Emperor's Champion in one battle will not necessarily be the same Marine in a different battle later on?

Most likely not.

I wonder if there is any prestige associated with being an EC within the BTs. You know, watch out for Brian, he's been chosen by the Emperor!

They follow their tactics like any good marines, but if the situation is unresovable, they willingly fight to the last man rather than retreat.

Are they a particularly successful Chapter then? A willingness to fight to the last man instead of withdraw sounds more like a hindrance. Is this potentially a reason why they have their 1000-only cap lifted? They might be absorbing higher casualties.

[Kuja]

Conquest of Armageddon

I have that book and they really did turn on a group of morally ambiguous Relictors (was it?) who were acting suspicious and wanted to use Chaos artifacts and stuff as their own, to learn from Chaos and use it for the benefit of the Imperium (the usual lies of heresy!).

NO REMORSE! NO PITY! NO FEAR!

To be fair, by the last couple of pages it isn't really clear if the Relictors captain is simply still spouting his rhetoric or if he really is being controlled by the Chaos weapon. With the situation being so ambiguous and powder-keg charged already, I really don't blame Chaplain Wolfram for going medieval on the guy's ass.

[Crom]

Yes, they belong entirely to the Chapter. The vast majority of serfs are men who failed the exams to become a marine for one reason or another and survived.

Do BTs have any respect for wash-outs? They seem to be big enough dicks to not want the failures around. And isn't failure fatal in SM exams?

They tolerate navigators, seeing as they have no choice. As for literacy, Marshall Brant in the BT books keeps up a running exchange with a local inquisitor. He seems perfectly eloquent on paper, so take that as you will.

Do they get the hypocrisy of being intolerant to mutants considering some mutants, like Navigators, are arguably more human than they are? Do BTs ever even bother remember being human?

The reason why I ask was that I was planning for a major character to have been the son of a scholar. He entered the BTs but kept his interest in studying history.

[Kuja]

I wonder if there is any prestige associated with being an EC within the BTs. You know, watch out for Brian, he's been chosen by the Emperor!

They are treated with all deference and respect one would expect of an Emperor's Champion for as long as they claim the title.

Are they a particularly successful Chapter then? A willingness to fight to the last man instead of withdraw sounds more like a hindrance. Is this potentially a reason why they have their 1000-only cap lifted? They might be absorbing higher casualties.

The Black Templars are arguably the most successful chapter in the Imperium of Man. Part of it is due to the fact that they're just badass enough that they can wade into a fight and slaughter everything within reach more often than not. Another part is that when a particular crusade ends, they come home to rebuild and recoup before finding another cause to go bandy about. The few crusades that stay on the road for too long, such as the Solemnus crusade, are in far greater danger of being wiped out than some of their brethren.

[Crom]

Some quotes from Codex: BT just to get the general vibe here:

RIGHTEOUS ZEAL
Whilst most Space Marines under heavy fire or facing insurmountable odds in close combat will retreat, read to counter-attack, the Black Templars will often hurl themselves at the enemy with even greater determination and fervent anger, their own casualties only serving to spur them on faster, hungry for vengeance on the slayers of their brethren.

KILL THEM ALL
Black Templars are so zealous in their persecution of the enemies of the Emperor that they will often try to kill the nearest enemy to them, even when shooting a more distant enemy might be more tactically sound.

NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!
Black Templars battle brothers fight with righteous anger and are loath to retreat before an enemy. When in an assault, all Black Templars units are Fearless.

(pg 23)

In short: If you write BTs as crazy, suicidal, bloodthirsty lunatics... you're probably not writing enough sanguine, suicidal lunacy yet.

By Thor's hammer! I assumed they were zealots but I severely underestimated their zeal! At least that makes some things about writing a BT easier.