The purpose of prison.

[Death from the Sea]

Recently during a conversation at work an interesting topic or question was brought up. It was started by a case at work and there was even a thread on this board about it found here.

The question was what if the guy that killed the store clerk years ago had rehabilitated himself in the time between the murder and the time he turned himself in? Is prison more about rehabilitating the convict? or is it about punishing them? or both? if prison is about rehabilitation and not punishment, then should he do jail time?

The answer may seem straight forward.... but is it? Often at parole hearings they try to determine if the convict has been rehabilitated. Which would imply that is what they (the parole board) believe prison to be for. Which is not the same as punishment.

I know that there are many other purposes for locking up crooks but what I am concentrating on here is the difference between the rehabilitation and punishment.

[Flagg]

I think it should be about rehabilitation and making sure that we release people who are less of a threat to society and not more of one. That means education, job skills, and if necessary, mental health treatment. I'm a big fan of the idea of a required period of probation following release from prison, with violations adding up to more time or other punishments.

At the same time, there is the punishment element in regulating their time and activities as well as taking away their individual liberties for as long as they are sentenced. It's also cathartic for the victims to know that the person who wronged them is being punished and that would hopefully serve as somewhat of a deterrent.

Of course there are those who cannot or will not be rehabilitated and frankly, prison serves as a method for separating those people from society.

Of course the prison system in this country is just a fucking mess. It's underfunded and overcrowded, mixing nonviolent offenders in with predatory career criminals who prey on them. The only way to really fix it is to invest money into it, which society seems to be unwilling to do.

[PainRack]

Rehab. How this is to be done is another thing altogether. Whether or not the deterrent aspect of prison is effective is something else that needs to be discussed by experts.

[Darth Wong]

I don't see why we should pretend that there is no retribution aspect of prison or criminal justice in general. If you take the rehabilitation argument to its logical extreme, someone who murders another person but is examined by a psychiatrist and determined to be at no risk of re-offending should be allowed to go scot free. Let him walk on the same day. All you really need is a highly unique set of circumstances surrounding the murder with no serious risk of re-occurrence, and voila! No rehabilitation required, and not much point in deterrence either.

People pretend that the criminal justice system is exclusively rehabilitative because they are full of shit.

[Knife]

I don't see why we should pretend that there is no retribution aspect of prison or criminal justice in general. If you take the rehabilitation argument to its logical extreme, someone who murders another person but is examined by a psychiatrist and determined to be at no risk of re-offending should be allowed to go scot free. Let him walk on the same day. All you really need is a highly unique set of circumstances surrounding the murder with no serious risk of re-occurrence, and voila! No rehabilitation required, and not much point in deterrence either.

People pretend that the criminal justice system is exclusively rehabilitative because they are full of shit.

Indeed, a certain amount of revenge is needed for the victims for justice to be....well justice. It's not all of justice but to equal out the special needs and circumstances of the perpetrator.

[Darth Wong]

Indeed, it is not at all unreasonable to conclude that satisfying the victim's desire for retribution is a perfectly valid function of a criminal justice system. Also, it is worth noting that when people feel the criminal justice system is failing to serve the needs of their society, they tend to become uncooperative and hostile to police and the courts. You see this in every low-income community where they get the impression that the system is stacked against them.

In short, if the criminal justice system totally ignores society's desire to see some sort of punishment applied to criminals, then the criminal justice system runs the risk of weakening the peoples' respect for the law. That can lead to an uptick in vigilante justice, reluctance for witnesses to come forward, etc. If you're a potential witness in a violent crime case, won't you wonder "why should I risk possible retribution to come forward in order to give this guy a slap on the wrist"?

[Flagg]

I think punishment should be the aim of the court systems, as opposed to the prison systems. I think by taking a person out of society and restricting their personal liberties to the extent that a prison does is punishment. But while they're being punished they should also be given skills so that when they get out they won't need to be punished again.

[Lusankya]

I read in the paper a couple of months ago that Victoria had been trialling a system in which people who committed minor robberies were made to return the stuff and apologise to their victims rather than going to jail. Apparently the people who were in the trial had about a half to a third of the reconviction rate of those who just went to prison.

Of course, there are some people who will only respond to punishment as a dterrent, and these people need to be punishmed, but only insofar as it could rehabilitate them or keep them from interfering with society further if they can't be rehabilitated.

[Wedge]

I think it also depends on the crime the offender has committed. For example a corrupt politician or a corporate criminal should be PUNISHED. I don't think they really need much rehabilitation as opposed to other criminals. Also another question would be, do you mix the different types of criminals? Because I sure as hell don't want these rich assholes who robbed millions to be with their peers having a "good time". Like I don't want to see a student for possession of Cannabis sitting there with rapers and so on.

[Lambda 00]

Like I don't want to see a student for possession of Cannabis sitting there with rapers and so on.

Also, what about people who have been convicted for a crime they didn't commit?

[(name here)]

if we could sort them out, they wouldn't be in jail, now would they?

[Twoyboy]

I read in the paper a couple of months ago that Victoria had been trialling a system in which people who committed minor robberies were made to return the stuff and apologise to their victims rather than going to jail. Apparently the people who were in the trial had about a half to a third of the reconviction rate of those who just went to prison.

If you can find a reference, I wouldn't mind seeing some more info on this, such as how they chose who to conduct the trial on and who they compared them to. If they chose those who already showed regret for their actions and were most likely to be easily rehabilitated, then compared them to the rest of the thieves, it's a rather biased comparison.

Also, what about people who have been convicted for a crime they didn't commit?

When deciding on punishments I think you pretty much have to make the assumption that the conviction is valid. Otherwise you'd have to let everyone go "just in case". There may be special circumstances where the judge can change this, but for the purpose of general discussion I think the assumption is valid.


I think the purpose of jail is punishment, but while we're at it there can't be any harm in rehabilitating the criminals at the same time. Millions of years of evolution have taught us to punish those who do not act in the best interests of the social group. Punishing criminals helps maintain the social order.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I've never quite understood why they don't segregate prisons based on crime committed. Murderers shack up with murderers. Assaults with assaults. Rapers with rapers, etc. That way you could have focused rehab programs for when folks get out (after of course serving their 20+ year sentence). It'd also keep folks who are thieves and other petty criminals from getting the shit beaten out of them when the go the big house.

And for multiple offenses, just send people to the worst one.

[andrewgpaul]

I think that, whatever the purpose of a prison, ideally those inside it should come out after their sentence less likely to commit a crime than when they went in. If that means regular beatings by the guards, maybe that should be an option. However, it's more likely that teaching them how to do something useful insociety, and making shure they can get somewhere to live and a job when they leave, then that should also be a priority.

[Darth Wong]

I think that, whatever the purpose of a prison, ideally those inside it should come out after their sentence less likely to commit a crime than when they went in. If that means regular beatings by the guards, maybe that should be an option. However, it's more likely that teaching them how to do something useful insociety, and making shure they can get somewhere to live and a job when they leave, then that should also be a priority.

I think it's worth pointing out that Turkey, which is famous for its inhumane prison conditions, has an extremely low crime rate.

[Wedge]

I've never quite understood why they don't segregate prisons based on crime committed. Murderers shack up with murderers. Assaults with assaults. Rapers with rapers, etc. That way you could have focused rehab programs for when folks get out (after of course serving their 20+ year sentence). It'd also keep folks who are thieves and other petty criminals from getting the shit beaten out of them when the go the big house.

That is what I was asking earlier. But for example a corporate criminal who robbed millions or corrupt politicians that have been send to jail. Do you think it's a real punishment if you sent them to jail and they sit with other rich people. It would be like "prison club". The rich bitches get together to discuss who made the biggest fraud and on what they spent the money, I don't see enough punishment in that.

On a not so serious note, why don't they use pink and yellow colours in prison? on clothes, walls and so on. Maybe it will lose that "toughness" or "cool" factor from the gangsta community.

[Singular Intellect]

I think that, whatever the purpose of a prison, ideally those inside it should come out after their sentence less likely to commit a crime than when they went in. If that means regular beatings by the guards, maybe that should be an option. However, it's more likely that teaching them how to do something useful insociety, and making shure they can get somewhere to live and a job when they leave, then that should also be a priority.

I think it's worth pointing out that Turkey, which is famous for its inhumane prison conditions, has an extremely low crime rate.

Sounds like a working system to me...

[Agent Fisher]

Prison is about keeping inmates from the public. Wether this is for five years or five life sentences. The first goal of C.O.s is to keep them locked up and keep themselves safe.

I've never quite understood why they don't segregate prisons based on crime committed. Murderers shack up with murderers. Assaults with assaults. Rapers with rapers, etc. That way you could have focused rehab programs for when folks get out (after of course serving their 20+ year sentence). It'd also keep folks who are thieves and other petty criminals from getting the shit beaten out of them when the go the big house.

Depending on the level of the facility, in California, they do try to do this. The heavier crimes will be sent to the high security facilities or, if they are really bad, up to Pelican Bay. But right now, California is overcrowded, got way too few C.O.s for the prisons. Oh, and with thieves and petty crimes, they usually serve there time in county level jails, unless they have a long term, then they get sent to a state level facility.

[Justforfun000]

In general, I think we have to punish people for their wrongdoing, but it has to be relative to their conscious choice to do wrong. I think there should always be extenuating circumstances for people that are just not educated enough, mentally handicapped or what have you that need special consideration, but fuck this "Oh, he had a rough family" shit. There are far too many bleeding hearts making a sob story for everyone.

If you are are reasonably educated, rational minded adult, you have no real excuse in my opinion. Throw the book at them to make an example.

[Havok]

Prison should serve a few functions. It should be a deterrent. It should be a place for rehabilitation and it should be a place to keep those that are unwilling or unable to be rehabilitated away from the rest of the population.

The problem, at least in America, and especially California, is that there are just so many fucking criminals.

Prison certainly isn't a deterrent any more, as it is more a badge of respect for the majority of people that end up doing time. It also serves as a nice way to spread criminal education among the inmates. Go in an OK robber and come out with a PHD in Thievery. And seriously, the conditions in American jails are about as good as some fucking hotels. Cable TV, an exercise yard, hospital facilities, hot meals, libraries, laundry service. Not to mention the stores and the thriving drug trafficking. I mean come on. Where exactly is the deterrent?

Only for the very small group of people that totally fucked themselves, and never in a million years imagined they would do prison time, does it have any rehabilitative qualities. And that is pretty much "Oh my fucking god! I will DIE before I go back to that place". Again, that only applies to the small group of people that more than likely, got there by committing some heinous crime due to extenuating circumstances, and would never do the same thing again, or just by being stupid or committing a horrible mistake.

We should just accept prison for what it has become and is: A place to put the people we either can't or won't deal with anymore. To try to keep them out of sight and out of mind, and hope one day they all kill each other.

[RedImperator]

The problem, at least in America, and especially California, is that there are just so many fucking criminals.

No, the problem is that we've criminalized too much behavior. Your crowding problems (and everyone else's) would go away if you stopped imprisoning nonviolent drug offenders. Even if you only stopped imprisoning for possession, it would make for a major improvement.

And seriously, the conditions in American jails are about as good as some fucking hotels. Cable TV, an exercise yard, hospital facilities, hot meals, libraries, laundry service. Not to mention the stores and the thriving drug trafficking. I mean come on. Where exactly is the deterrent?

I always hear about what a paradise prison is, yet for some reason I never hear about anybody volunteering to go. The way you describe it, prison is better than my apartment, as opposed to being a shitty, spirit-crushing dump that has a few amenities to distract the prisoners and reduce the chances of a riot.

We should just accept prison for what it has become and is: A place to put the people we either can't or won't deal with anymore. To try to keep them out of sight and out of mind, and hope one day they all kill each other.

Um, that's pretty much our de facto policy already. And what it's gotten us is a high recidivism rate, a prison population the size of Chicago, and no relief from crime for the residents of the neighborhoods where the majority of these people come from. And we pay a fortune for it. If you're going to treat your prisons as a dumping ground for the people you just can't reform, then you can't also use prison as your remedy of first resort for crime.

[Rye]

I do believe retribution for the victims of crime is an important part of imprisonment, but at the same time, it's obvious that we shouldn't make the scales of justice inordinately swayed towards inhumane behaviour for the sadists outside and inside, lest we become like Iran or Saudi, which also have quite low crime rates.

I don't think I could support guards beating prisoners, for instance, or denying prisoners medical treatment on the grounds that "prison's not meant to be nice" as it is essentially just cruelty and assault, things we condemn on the outside of prison, to the extent you can go to prison for it. Agents of state systems being able to beat the shit out of people who can't fight back, or rape them, or torture them, really doesn't sit right with me. It's a double standard and Dostoevsky's "you can judge how civilised a society is by how it treats its prisoners" quote comes to mind. A society that treats its prisoners inordinately well would be stupid and self-defeating, of course, but I don't think that's what he was talking about.

If modern imprisonment in a shithole isn't enough retribution for a victim of a crime, they ought to be prepared to be imprisoned and just act out the retribution themselves.

[Darth Wong]

The biggest problem with the retributive aspect of prison is that it is very unevenly applied. The weak are horrendously victimized in prison, while the strongest, most dangerous offenders get to rule the place. If anything, it should be the opposite, but that is a natural side-effect of the philosophy that we want retributive justice but we're too squeamish to let agents of the state do it. Therefore, we let the prisoners do it to themselves, thus creating this perverse situation where prison is most harsh for the weak and most comfortable for the strong and dangerous.

[Rye]

I think if such a thing were to be included; it would have to be heavily regulated, unlike in Turkey, Saudi, etc, or Abu Ghraib. Whenever guards beat down a prisoner, even they usually target the weakest and least likely/able to fight back, perhaps because sadistic behaviour is most likely to be successful against such people. Humans are a pack animal at heart, and so to make institutionalised violence "justified" there'd have to be some sort of organised, accountable and public system for it.

[Mr Bean]

The main failing of prisons is in letting the inmates interact AT ALL.
What positive benefits could come from inmates interacting with each other?

Compare that if the inmates saw nothing but their guards all day. Prisoners see nothing but guards and their tutors come to help them. We can still use them as a cheap labor force, but limit the hours each day they do their work and isolate them from each other. It's not that hard to build a shop or other system where the prisoners are isolate from each other yet still able to function.


Edit, let me outline my hypothetical prison(Which of course would cost more than current methods)

1. Indoc
As per Standard Prisons, shave em, change em, get em off the Bus, nothing here needs that much changing except for the delousing and showing business. It would not cost that much to change the shower-rooms to give the prisoners more privacy, put the showers in stalls(Oh shit! three foot walls, so much more expensive), hell give em doors!


See here, typical upscale gym shower room, they don't need to be marble floors and glass doors, Give them concrete or whatever walls, and for doors your typical bathroom style giant plastic panel that hides your mid-region would do it.

We don't want to de-humanize them, not yet.

Moving along

2. Processing/The Cells

Assign them a cell, get them changed and get them in there.
Cells can be on current block-house design, five-six stories high. However each cell needs to be separated from each other by a good five six feet and contain a solid door, no bars. A thick shatter-proof glass window a foot across with a slider to cover it. The Door and the cell itself need to be sound proof as much as possible.

Small Cells, but enough room to stand up, sit down or lay on the floor if you wish.

Gitmo is build on this design already funny enough


Same room, first photo has the the photographer standing next to the bed, second view is from next to the sink.

Notice the almost impossibility to hide anything? Very important, no shivs in this prison, no hiding places for contraband. Put in a stand under that sink so nothing can be hidden under it and you already have my ideal cell for this hypothetical prison.


3. Prison life.
Three important things
A. No big massive yards, smaller yards where more limits numbers of prisoners are brought And the yards are interior to the prison in court-yards between cells. No views of the outside world except what color the sky is. They each get an hour or two out in the sun. If they want to play games, fine only if they have good behavior. Prison foot-ball is out, as is any serious contact sport. Things like soccer, basket ball and the like are all-right.

Gym's should be offered three times a week, however they should be designed not to let people come out of prison looking like the incredible hulk. So give them a max of two hundred pounds worth of free weights and a hundred pounds worth of hand weights. Some sufficiently dedicated person might try to hulk up by doing two hundred pounds on the bar one handed, but it should be limited enough to reduce the problem of people coming out of prison able to break people in half.

TV in Prison? Limited to those on the high end of good scale, let them have a movie of the week, and put the TV in their cell(Wall installed, channels limited to a Pentagon style channel with a select of popular shows and the prime three news networks)

B. System of rewards and punishments
Good prisoners are rewarded, bad prisoners are further punished. Good prisoners can except the right to an hour or two in the prison library, extra visiting time(Well behaved in-mates will even be allowed in the same room rather than tradition phone/glass visits)

Sex on those visits? I believe it's called conjugal visits? Yes for the married folks unless they've been bad. Girlfriend/boyfriend(Even if same sex) yes provided they are treated as well behaved.

Five levels of good, Five levels of bad. The better an inmate is, the more rights they are allowed, the worse he is, the more restrictions are placed on him or her. All prisoners start at Level 2 bad and have to work up from there. A repeat offender(Second jail sentance) starts a level down for every time they've been in jail before. Level Five good would be equivalent to being allowed to watch as much TV as they want(Except after lights out), access to Tutors and two visits a week from family for a few hours. Extra gym and yard time if they want it.

Level five bad on the other hand, half hour or yard time by themselves before dawn. No gym time, meals limited to basic human survival needs (Exactly 2,000 c) and in box style cell in the dark. Assigned to hard physical pointless labor. Dig a hole fill it in, move rocks from one side of the yard to the other. Anything that's not useful in any way shape or form and repetitive.

C. Interaction between in-mates
None- notta, no way. The only interaction in-mates will have will be with their guards except during Yard-time. And as I mentioned yard will be limited to ten to twenty in-mates tops, not two hundred or a thousand as in some cases. You can arrange the yards in box formations so guards can walk the walls and watch two yards at once

I don't want to keep going on with my plan least some prison designer see it,and steal it for his own before I patent my plan(:P) But sufficient to say this, isolate the prisoners, only let the interact with other people an hour or two of each day. Then use some of that left over daylight use them as labor or teach them skills. Things like welding, sodering, working with industrial equipment. Drywalling, painting, anything physical that has a certification attached to it, or even non-physical if they want a tax-preparer cert for example that's another valid choice. As well offer them the chance to learn book skills. If they are well behaved, on the good/bad scale and want to purse higher learning or even a GED, help them along get tutors in the prison to get them so by the time they get out they have a valid carrier choice besides what they were doing before.

And if they already had a job choice, then let them learn extra job paths for no more than to pass the time.


What I want to create here is a prison where the traditional no-official methods of prison punishment are non-existent, no rapes, no stabbings, no gangs no drugs. Instead you have isolation and the chance at some useful job skills post prison. However with that, if you misbehave in this prison it can get much worse, no yard time, no gym time and pointless repetitive tasks to fill your day.