Nationalistic Blinders, National Healthcare and Sicko

[Spin Echo]

Low unemployment, a functioning NHS (but good luck getting a dentist down south) and a growth rate in the economy only topped by Chindia.

UK isn't the only country with a good NHS, benefits and low unemployment. People mentioned Scandinavia. Probably Australia and Japan are also okay.

New Zealand has an unemployment of 3.4% and a national health care service. You'll have to get Spyder and Stuart Mackey to weigh in on it though, because I had to get private health insurance as a student there.

[K. A. Pital]

Neither of which have anywhere near the economic prosperity we have.

I guess the fact that nations with lower incomes manage to have good employment figures and good benefits/healthcare is somewhat more remarkable than a rich nation doing the same.

What is even more remarkable is when a very rich nation fails to do so and sucks at healthcare, like the US.

I'm also kind of doubtful that the UK is more prosperous: Norway, Canada, Austria, Australia and Japan have higer GDP/capita (PPP).

[Enigma]

It was illuminiating to say the least to see the Canadian system at play in the documentary. Someone walks into the clinic, which looks like any other clinic here in the US save the people seem more polite but it is Canada after all. People didn't have to fill out tons of paperwork, wait for hours or pay a single solitary dime. When he asks some Canadians what their copay was they were perplexed. The entire concept of paying for any kind of healthcare was alien to them. I could empathize as I found the entire concept of NOT paying up the ass to be alien.

The above isn't completely true. Michael Moore probably went to a few clinics to find one with a short waiting time or went to one in a rural area. For example here in Ottawa, we have about 1% of the total family doctors accepting new patients so quite a few do not have family doctors and thus rely on clinics. Worse is when some go instead to the ER to see a doctor because they cannot wait a couple of hours at a clinic.

As for co-pay, while I only knew of the word from here I do know that there is some form of co-pay but that is from from private health insurance (I've seen on medication receipts that some people have to "co-pay").

Also while we technically have universal healthcare, the type varies from province to province. Here in Ontario, we used to have free eye exams and physiotherapy but the government dropped it and is only offered to the elderly.

Don't get me wrong, while there is quite a few things messed up with our healthcare system I wouldn't want to trade it with the U.S. system.

[Patrick Degan]

People think the Right embraced putting fear into the population after 9/11. No. Fear has been one of their greatest tools during another era that some of you may not remember. The Cold War. Back then, labeling anything as Communist was taboo and drew gasps of outrage. Sound oddly familiar? Sound like "You're with the terrorists." to anyone? That's right ladies and gents, if fear is the prime motivator you're looking into the soul of the Right Wing.

This shit's been going on in this country since the beginning of the 20th century. Before even that, if you count the effort to crush the Progressives which predated even Woodrow Wilson's Red Scare and the Palmer Raids. The entire object of the exercise has been to keep average Americans in debt and with as few options as possible to keep the bosses in control.

A fair and just society is the last thing these fucks want.

[Stravo]

The above isn't completely true. Michael Moore probably went to a few clinics to find one with a short waiting time or went to one in a rural area. For example here in Ottawa, we have about 1% of the total family doctors accepting new patients so quite a few do not have family doctors and thus rely on clinics. Worse is when some go instead to the ER to see a doctor because they cannot wait a couple of hours at a clinic.

As for co-pay, while I only knew of the word from here I do know that there is some form of co-pay but that is from from private health insurance (I've seen on medication receipts that some people have to "co-pay").

Also while we technically have universal healthcare, the type varies from province to province. Here in Ontario, we used to have free eye exams and physiotherapy but the government dropped it and is only offered to the elderly.

Don't get me wrong, while there is quite a few things messed up with our healthcare system I wouldn't want to trade it with the U.S. system.

I believe he was in London Ontario - wherever it is that's right across from Detroit as the woman in that section drove over the bridge, pretended she was married to a Canadian and got her health care that way.

Considering how much waiting time I usually have anyway especially in those pediatric clinics I would gladly trade a little wait time for not having to pay at all.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I guess the fact that nations with lower incomes manage to have good employment figures and good benefits/healthcare is somewhat more remarkable than a rich nation doing the same.

What is even more remarkable is when a very rich nation fails to do so and sucks at healthcare, like the US.

I'm also kind of doubtful that the UK is more prosperous: Norway, Canada, Austria, Australia and Japan have higer GDP/capita (PPP).

The US has a far higher GDP/per capita (PPP) than the UK or any other nation listed bar Norway (going by the CIA World Factbook), but this depends greatly on who you listen to and whether you feel that is the more accurate gauge of personal wealth. A nation that isn't doing well economically and has a stagnant economy with a growing OAP populace and shrinking workforce (i.e. Japan) will not be all that nice a place to be in compared to one with a strong growing economy, but slightly less well off people individually.

The US is notorious in having bad wealth distribution, for instance and their economy may be the largest, yet it is also the one that is heading for the bigger fall in the coming years. Whether others follow suit remains to be seen. Anyone who isn't looking at a nice growth rate will not be able to maintain their living standard for long given other factors.

[SCRawl]

I believe he was in London Ontario - wherever it is that's right across from Detroit as the woman in that section drove over the bridge, pretended she was married to a Canadian and got her health care that way.

I wonder how that worked. In Ontario you need a special Health Card to access medical services, with your picture and a magnetic strip, along with other information. The government only gives them out to residents, though I suppose the person in the movie might have pretended to have residency at some point to get the card. I don't suppose the movie was more illuminating about this point, was it?

[Stravo]

I believe he was in London Ontario - wherever it is that's right across from Detroit as the woman in that section drove over the bridge, pretended she was married to a Canadian and got her health care that way.

I wonder how that worked. In Ontario you need a special Health Card to access medical services, with your picture and a magnetic strip, along with other information. The government only gives them out to residents, though I suppose the person in the movie might have pretended to have residency at some point to get the card. I don't suppose the movie was more illuminating about this point, was it?

I think she used the guy's card and bluffed her way past the woman at the window saying that she still hadn't applied for her id card or some such and the woman at the window replied something along the lines of "it only takes 10 minutes."

I get the sense from her interview that it doesn't work all the time and depends on the clinic she goes to. It helps that she has her little daughter with her during her bluffing attempts. She doesn't do this on her own, she has a Canadian citizen friend who provides her with an address to use, etc.

Let me see if Youtube has the clip.

EDIT:

Here it is. She comes in around the 2 minute mark but please don't skip over the jackass Congressman with his "secret weapon" argument for more freedom for drug companies.

[SCRawl]

Ah, I got it now. I suppose you might get away with what this woman did once in a while, but if the footage can be believed, the clinic called the cops on her. My google-fu has proved weak in my attempts to determine the penalties for defrauding OHIP.

[SCRawl]

Ghetto edit. My google-fu is strong again:

Under the Criminal Code of Canada Section 380, a person convicted of fraud exceeding $5,000 could be imprisoned up to 10 years. Restitution may also be ordered under the Criminal Code.

A person, who has been convicted of a provincial offence under the Health Insurance Act, is subject to a penalty of up to $25,000 and/or jail up to 12 months for a first offence. For a subsequent offence the penalty is a fine of up to $50,000 and/or jail up to 12 months. Under the Health Insurance Act, a court can also order a person convicted, to pay compensation or make restitution to a person who suffers a loss as a result of the offence.

Pretty steep, if they nail you. Then again, if the alternatives are (a) get sick and die and/or face crippling debt in the US, or (b) get care in Canada and risk a fine and jail, I suppose there are easier decisions. Mind you, I doubt people are crossing the border (northward, anyway) to get dialysis, chemotherapy or bypass surgery....

[SCRawl]

*sigh* Here's the link. I guess that's one way to boost my post count.

[Galvatron]

I just saw it myself and was appalled. I'm glad you cleared up the stuff about Cuba because I was convinced that the place was a fucking utopia after seeing Sicko. I really wish Moore would have cut the entire Cuba part because it taints the entire movie like a turd in the punch bowl for even sympathetic viewers.

Moreover, I think if you want to sell anyone on socialized healthcare, the best example to use would be Great Britain. Too many Americans think Canadians are quaint and that the French are assholes, so using either country to illustrate your point would only work against you.

On the other hand, even rednecks tend to respect England, if only because they're a stalwart military ally of ours.

[Aaron]

I think she used the guy's card and bluffed her way past the woman at the window saying that she still hadn't applied for her id card or some such and the woman at the window replied something along the lines of "it only takes 10 minutes."

I get the sense from her interview that it doesn't work all the time and depends on the clinic she goes to. It helps that she has her little daughter with her during her bluffing attempts. She doesn't do this on her own, she has a Canadian citizen friend who provides her with an address to use, etc.

Let me see if Youtube has the clip.

EDIT:

Here it is. She comes in around the 2 minute mark but please don't skip over the jackass Congressman with his "secret weapon" argument for more freedom for drug companies.

She says that she has just moved to Ontario and doesn't yet have an OHIP card. They should actually be charging her for the visit if she can't produce another Provinces health care card or private insurance card. There's notices posted in every doctors office I've ever been too stating this. Either she used her "husbands" card (which is illegal and they wouldn't accept) or their doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. Of course it could have been all arranged and Moore paid them for her but that doesn't seem likely seeing as the OPP show up just after she leaves.

[Agrajag]

http://blog.pcserenity.com/search?q=health

I wrote the above back in January. I too have had enough of the misinformation that the Right has managed to perpetuate on the average citizen here. In both my job and my hobby I deal with people from all over the world every single day. I have yet to find more than the rarest of examples of people who say they don't like their nationalized system of healthcare in these countries. Yet all we hear over here is that the last thing we want is a broken system like "they" have.

WE have the broken system. To look at 45+ million people without care and those who pay but get lackluster care and do nothing is a joke. Many Republicans, especially those on TV and such are there for one thing--to find any way to take every last penny for themselves. The concept of sharing a dime is completely foreign to them as it's a dime that they can't have in their coin jar.

As far as the flaccid argument of those who have solid healthcare today, no one is suggesting that this go away. You're free to pay for any advanced healthcare you want in these other countries just as you can do now. Keep doing it if you like your setup.

As you'll see in my post I'm still fighting with Bluecross over my injury in Canada (broken leg skiing) while the Canadian bill for a NON-citizen paying FULL cost was a tiny fraction of what it would have cost here.

Universal healthcare is coming. No doubt about it. It's just a matter of when and what form it will take.

[Agrajag]

I also love the argument regarding long waits for things in these systems. Yet another line of garbage. When's the last time you called your dentist and got an appointment for the next day? I've had 3 different dentist and my wife has had two entirely different ones. Unless it's an emergency each one is scheduling weeks, if not months from the day you call.

When I want ANYTHING other than a routine doctor visit I end up in a long wait. Need to see a back specialist? How about 8 weeks from now?

That's common here and yet people hear about long waits in other countries and say, "Oh no. Can't have that." It took me forever to find a doctor here that didn't keep me waiting for hours each visit. I'd show up on schedule only to sit there for a minimum of an hour. Give me a break.

My care in the military, which is a nationalized system by-the-way, was incredible compared to what I've experienced in our wonderful free market system. Never had to wait long there and saw the very best specialists available for any concern I had.

It's amazing how we can have nationalized healthcare where we have to have it but can't for everyone else. If you're in the military or work for the government (like Congress) then nationalized healthcare is perfectly fine but not if you just pay your taxes and live outside those confines.

[Darth Wong]

The above isn't completely true. Michael Moore probably went to a few clinics to find one with a short waiting time or went to one in a rural area. For example here in Ottawa, we have about 1% of the total family doctors accepting new patients so quite a few do not have family doctors and thus rely on clinics. Worse is when some go instead to the ER to see a doctor because they cannot wait a couple of hours at a clinic.

I remember from watching it that he went to one in Windsor, and he probably went first thing in the morning on a weekday when the waiting times would be short. Those clinics are first-come, first-serve.

As for co-pay, while I only knew of the word from here I do know that there is some form of co-pay but that is from from private health insurance (I've seen on medication receipts that some people have to "co-pay").

Usually, it means that they get a nicer room at the hospital. There are certain perks you can get from private health insurance even in Canada's system, which is built only to guarantee that basic health care is provided to everyone.

I saw "Sicko" and if I was going to criticize it, I'd say that he has a tendency to make it seem as if other countries' systems are perfect. They all have their own flaws, but the kind of flaws they have are much less horrifying than those in the US system, which is designed to outright deny care to people.

As Stravo pointed out in the OP, there seems to be a real culture shock with health-care in America. Other first-world nations view it as a public service, while Americans view it as a consumer product. So naturally, Americans think it's absurd to just give it away or tax people so others can have it. Meanwhile, other first-world nations' citizens think it's absurd to tell people they can't have it if they can't pay. And when Americans brag about the qualities of their health-care system, they always brag as if it's a consumer product. They brag about how they offer the best quality care in the world ... if you can afford it. They treat it like a luxury product, as if quality health-care is like a Mercedes-Benz or something.

Imagine if someone bragged that his city had the best police force in the world, which offered the best protection against crime ... to those who can afford to pay for it. Whoa, what happens to the people who can't pay? That's how people are supposed to react when a public service is treated like a commodity.

Of course, apologists will say that if you show up at an ER and you're on death's door, they have to treat you by law. But it's pretty perverse to force people to wait until the situation has become so dire before they can get any kind of care. To apply that to the police analogy, it would be like saying that the police won't come out to your house unless you pay ... or if you have already been shot.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Of course, apologists will say that if you show up at an ER and you're on death's door, they have to treat you by law. But it's pretty perverse to force people to wait until the situation has become so dire before they can get any kind of care. To apply that to the police analogy, it would be like saying that the police won't come out to your house unless you pay ... or if you have already been shot.

I am ashamed to say I used to think that way... Literally ashamed. It took taking a class in biomedical ethics (the first in a long string of ethics classes, had a bit of an awakening actually...) for me to realize that medicine is not a fucking business. The doctor-patient relationship is much more than that, and on that basis alone it deserves to not be treated as one.

You cant substitute healthcare like you can with commodities. You cant get cheaper cancer meds like you can with breakfast cereals, cars, or other commodity goods. Hell, when you REALLY need it, you dont even really choose your doctor.

That is why under a private system healthcare costs get so high. The laws of supply and demand you see in economics break. The consumer is in no position to not pay, so over time healthcare costs go up, it is inevitable.

[K. A. Pital]

When you deal with healthcare, the American position is "Pay or suffer!". It sounds brutal enough, you know, and if most Americans don't see a problem with that, they have a huge broken ethics problem indeed. And that attitude will have to be fixed before they seriously support a nationalized healthcare system.

Of course, the bull-speak "every man gets what he deserves in our pro-market system!" (in relation to ilnesses which can strike any person at random, like he deserved it, yep) is just the same "pay or suffer" motto spoken in obscure terms.

[PainRack]

An interesting thing when reading these issues with the libertards on SB is their outright aversion to paying for someone else's care. They find it absolutely abhorrent, even when it costs them more under their system.

Its odd, since everytime you explained the concepts of insurance to them, they claim that they understand. Yet, they fail to see the connection, they're STILL paying for someone else healthcare under insurance. The sole difference is in terms of pool. Under a national, or even state based system, you have a larger pool of people paying for the same number of cases.

To take off the blinkers, the issue is truly how much money is flowing into the system and how much it can do with that. NHC is no better or no worse than managing money than a private system(ignoring bureaucracy, but anyone who believes that this doesn't apply to large conglomerates in the US is on moonshine). If State A is treating 5 thousand people with a 1 million dollars, I expect their healthcare and waiting time to be better than State B which is treating 5 thousand people with 10 thousand.

[thejester]

An interesting thing when reading these issues with the libertards on SB is their outright aversion to paying for someone else's care. They find it absolutely abhorrent, even when it costs them more under their system.

Yeah, I've argued it on ACG and that is what opposition basically boils down to. Again, just a bizarre mindset.

[Darth Wong]

An interesting thing when reading these issues with the libertards on SB is their outright aversion to paying for someone else's care. They find it absolutely abhorrent, even when it costs them more under their system.

Yeah, I've argued it on ACG and that is what opposition basically boils down to. Again, just a bizarre mindset.

It's not bizarre; it's just abhorrent for anyone over the age of 4. In terms of the underlying thinking, it's incredibly simple: they are selfish children. "What's mine is mine and you ain't getting any" is their refrain.

People like this view society as an adversarial system, not a co-operative one.

[Stravo]

An interesting thing when reading these issues with the libertards on SB is their outright aversion to paying for someone else's care. They find it absolutely abhorrent, even when it costs them more under their system.

Yeah, I've argued it on ACG and that is what opposition basically boils down to. Again, just a bizarre mindset.

It's not bizarre; it's just abhorrent for anyone over the age of 4. In terms of the underlying thinking, it's incredibly simple: they are selfish children. "What's mine is mine and you ain't getting any" is their refrain.

People like this view society as an adversarial system, not a co-operative one.

To build on this idea I think that the current American society is built upon the notion that we're all independent and we get the best because we can afford to, yet underlying all of this is the true fact that our society is being increasingly run by corporations and our politicians are reduced to hired guns or mouthpieces for the highest bidder.

Take for example the recent reform to bankruptcy laws that made it very difficult to file and even if you did it forced you to repay or still carry over some debt. How was it sold to the people? This is about making it fair for people and to stop allowing dead beats to take advantage of this system. Who drafted the bill? Banks. What do Banks do? They back the vast majority of credit cards and over all debt. Did anyone who voted for it really read it? No. They were handed some cash and they voted accordingly. Now people are filing for bankruptcy in record numbers and find themselves with a very different bankruptcy system. Interesting that this reform just happened to go into effect right before the current credit crunch and economic downturn. Almost as if the banks knew this was coming and wanted to head off the massive reach for an escape hatch from debt. But now I sound like a conspiracy theorist.

I know when I write this I sound like a fucking hippy throw back but seriously, Americans have been conditioned to think that the inherent unfairness and selfishness of the system is a good thing, something that benefits them. It does not. It benefits the companies and special interests. How can anyone, logically, argue that corporate health care is better for people? The prime motivation is profit. Making money and helping people are mutally exclusive when it comes to health care. Helping people is a loss, bottom line. You are paying to have someone get medical care. When you deny that medical care you make money.

There is no denying that simple truth. You can dress it up as "we get the best health care in the world thanks to free market forces" but in the end that MUST mean people are losing out because you cannot make money by universally helping people.

Americans have been conditioned to be selfish and stupid. Look at the entertainment fed to the people, the free public education provided, the corporate controlled health care, military and government in general. It's a horrible system that people need to wake up to. They are losing the very freedom, a word Republicans like to use like a cheap whore, that we supposedly fight and vote for every election year.

It's easy to shake your head and go "what an ass, he sounds like a conspiracy theorist." I know, I've been doing it most of my life too. But when you really open your eyes and are honest with yourself you see an America you really don't like and want to change. Healthcare is just the tip of a very nasty and corrupt iceberg.

Its easier to accept living in this America when you're watching Dances with the Stars, working 90 hour work weeks to make ends meets and praying you don't get sick but hey we're independent and we don't accept no government handouts. But those companies sure do.

[PainRack]

Its one of the most absurd concepts in modern society. We refuse to give handouts to people if they ask for it, but tons of handout are being given to companies because they MAY want it.

If anything, it shows how corporations and market forces have become totally warped and a force of their own. Its a sad day that modern society now places more emphasis on catering to big business than it does to citizens.

[Darth Wong]

It has been said that "a house divided against itself cannot stand". Part of the problem with American culture is that it is a house divided against itself: Americans are taught to believe that society is nothing more than a loose collection of competing individuals with no responsibility to one another: a sort of gigantic Professional Wrestling Cage Match. This is the natural outcome of worshipping the Individual and demonizing Society. Many people (such as Ayn Rand) come right out and state that society itself is an intrinsically harmful concept, dragging down individuals by restricting their "freedom". No balance between "oppression" and "freedom" seems to exist according to this ideology; one is simply evil and the other is simply good.

The thing is that when you are taught to view your neighbours and countrymen as competitors, it's pretty easy to shift gears from "competitor" to "enemy", and you will violently resist the idea of helping them at your own expense. "Why should I?" is the obvious response. "What's in it for me?" After all, they're competitors, and if you help them win, then you're going to make yourself lose!

Politicians know this: they routinely play parts of American society against each other for their own advantage, because they know it works. They know they can get group A to vote against its own interests if it thinks that in doing so, it will deny something to group B.

[Broomstick]

Another contributing factor is the worship of the bottom line, the idea that everything must pay for itself or be shut down. This gets to be a serious problem with things like emergency rooms and trauma centers which INVARIABLY bleed money... but oddly enough, no one wants to do without them. Back when I was in the Evil Insurance Empire we seriously had idjits talking about how if an ER can't "support itself" it should be shut down, eliminated, changed to make a profit.... WTF? Invariably, it was healthy young people who had never been ill or injured in their life who were the strongest promoters of this. Those under the illusion that they were special and would never suffer misfortune - obviously, if someone was ill, injured, whatever they must not have been repsonsible in providing for the unforeseen - nevermind that none of those Golden Children could possibly have handled a million-dollar illness/injury on their own.