Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

[Beowulf]

Assuming you don't design a new bomber, you have a choice of either more B-2s, or more B-1Bs. The B-1B has a larger payload capacity (75k lbs vs 50k lbs), but the number of 500lb bombs it can hold is nearly identical to the B-2 (84 Mk 82 vs 80 Mk82). The B-2 can hold greater numbers of SDBs (216 vs a theoretical 144), and is already rated to carry them. Of course, we also have to think a bit about the future. B-2s will likely be much more useful after the war, and there's sure to be some steps that can be skipped in production (such as RAM application). Also, it's most likely possible to use avionics which aren't rated for use on nuclear capable aircraft, and thereby decrease the price. Call it a B-2C.

So, what's the answer? Both, of course. If we have tooling for both, we might as well use them, and increase the production rate.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I'd think you'd see that AA-12 shotgun being put into service as fast as possible for infantry. Especially with its mini-grenade ammo.

The FRAG-12 explosive shells are not unique to the AA-12 assault shotgun; they're standard 12-gauge shells which can be used with any shotgun.

Yes but it's not as fun if you're not using it as a Mk I Bolter.

[Sea Skimmer]

Assuming you don't design a new bomber, you have a choice of either more B-2s, or more B-1Bs. The B-1B has a larger payload capacity (75k lbs vs 50k lbs), but the number of 500lb bombs it can hold is nearly identical to the B-2 (84 Mk 82 vs 80 Mk82).

I'm pretty sure the arms limitation treaties just went out the window, so you can use the external pylons on the B-1 again. On paper they can carry up to 59,000lb of weapons, but in practice the total number of individual bombs you could hang is only 14, be they 500lb, 1000lb or 2,000lb weapons. Still an extra 28,000lb of bombs is no small increase in firepower.

As for B-2s, the things need around 40 hours of maintenance work for every hour of flight; they’d never be able to match a B-1B for bombs on target even if the payloads were in fact equal. The tooling might exist, but the workers have to be scrounged up, and could otherwise be assigned a project which will produce results in less then several years. I suppose a big question would be just how big hell is. If it’s more then a few thousand miles across, then the substantially superior unrefueled range of the B-2 would become a big advantage.

[Crayz9000]

I'd think you'd see that AA-12 shotgun being put into service as fast as possible for infantry. Especially with its mini-grenade ammo.

The FRAG-12 explosive shells are not unique to the AA-12 assault shotgun; they're standard 12-gauge shells which can be used with any shotgun.

Yes but it's not as fun if you're not using it as a Mk I Bolter.

You know, it would he hilarious if a bunch of WH40kers band together (say, a group of Marines who used to play as teens, and probably still would if they weren't in a war zone) and start naming stuff for its WH40k equivalent. Even more hilarious would be if someone starts a political movement to elect a "God-Emperor of Mankind"

[Beowulf]

Yes, the B-2 does require significant amounts of maintenance work per hour of flight. However, I seem to recall that most of that is related to the RAM coating. If the coating is never applied, it never needs to be maintained.

I'd forgotten about the range issue. Even with terrestrial combat, the greater unrefueled range is an advantage, because we'd need to depend less upon the increasingly creaky KC-135 fleet.

[Chris OFarrell]

Yeah the F-15 E line is still open IIRC, mostly because South Korea is ordering a bunch of enhanced Strike Eagles. I'd say screw the F-22's and go for expanding this production to the maximum possible level. 22's are suburb fighters, but they are designed to kill other EARTH fighters and some of the compromises based on their Stealth technology just make them that much less effective against Baldricks. They are not really designed for ground attack, can't carry anywhere near as high a payload e.t.c.

The F-15's is overkill against Harpies AND is still very useful in a ground attack role. You might even (probably not) be able to rip apart a number of the old F-15 Charlies grounded for airframe issues and use their parts to speed up production.

[Jawawithagun]

Luga's trying to explain something she doesn't understand herself. It's like asking a nightclub gogo dancer how her leg muscles work. It's something that comes naturally to her so she doesn't really think about it. The way I have this figured is that the demons have an electric-eel like bio-electric generator built into them that they can tap for power. We've seen them use it to charge their bronze tridents so they can shoot a bolt of electricity. Now, the barrier between the dimensions has some of the properties of barrage jamming so it requires a lot of signal to burn through it. The more we burn through, the more we can get through. Now, there is a problem, teh energy gradient is against us so we need a lot more power to burn through to the demon dimension than they need to burn through to us.

All this talk about opening portals from one side to the other being easier than the other way around and stuff made me think of another thing. With Heaven and Hell being on the same level - could we, once a suitable beachhead in Hell has been established,get into Heaven through the back door? Open a portal from Hell to get in there?

A way around that would be that demon sperm does not fertilize human eggs. The virus in the semen would simply infect the eggs, while a human male would still be necessary to complete the process. For example: Incubus uses mind trick to mate with human female, and later on the human female mates with a human male. In the case of succubi, they pass the virus and infect the human male's spermatocytes.

If I remember one tidbit of mythology about them correctly, succubi used to collect sperm from men - which was then used by incubi to impregnate women. So theoretically they could use modified human sperm for this.

You know, it would he hilarious if a bunch of WH40kers band together (say, a group of Marines who used to play as teens, and probably still would if they weren't in a war zone) and start naming stuff for its WH40k equivalent. Even more hilarious would be if someone starts a political movement to elect a "God-Emperor of Mankind"

What next? One of them dies and ends up in the demons' first serious intelligence gathering effort. So they learn of this and believe it before it even spreads through our own ranks?

[Crayz9000]

You know, it would he hilarious if a bunch of WH40kers band together (say, a group of Marines who used to play as teens, and probably still would if they weren't in a war zone) and start naming stuff for its WH40k equivalent. Even more hilarious would be if someone starts a political movement to elect a "God-Emperor of Mankind"

What next? One of them dies and ends up in the demons' first serious intelligence gathering effort. So they learn of this and believe it before it even spreads through our own ranks?

I hadn't thought of that one...

[Sea Skimmer]

Yeah the F-15 E line is still open IIRC, mostly because South Korea is ordering a bunch of enhanced Strike Eagles. I'd say screw the F-22's and go for expanding this production to the maximum possible level. 22's are suburb fighters, but they are designed to kill other EARTH fighters and some of the compromises based on their Stealth technology just make them that much less effective against Baldricks.

Its open thanks to South Korea and Singapore. But given how tiny both production lines are, they'll both have to be used and expanded, along with the F-16 line which is still going as well.

They are not really designed for ground attack, can't carry anywhere near as high a payload e.t.c.

That’s not really true; the F-22 can carry external weapons. Right now that capability is limited to just four more AMRAAMs because the USAF doesn’t see the need for anything more, but it’s always been planned to be possible to added AMRAAMs to all four external pylons, for a maximum of 16 x AAMs internal and external. It shouldn’t be that hard to adapt the wing stations to carry bombs as well, each of the four pylons is stressed for 5,000lb and plumbed for drop tanks. Even if the bomb racks weight 1,000lb (I think that’s about right) this is still a potential 20,000lb internal + external bomb load, plus the internal Sidewinders. I can’t imagine airframe life would be too good with that kind of load, nor range (you’d have to takeoff with a partial fuel load and tank soon after), but it is entirely possible.

On paper an F-15E can carry a 24,000lb of external stores, but that pesky limitation of how many points you have to attach bombs too realistically limits it to about 10,000lb of bombs + four Sidewinders. On a typical real life mission with drop tanks fitted an F-15E would typically have only about 4,000-8,000lb of weapons, though it would have a full loadout of eight AAMs.

[KlavoHunter]

I'd think you'd see that AA-12 shotgun being put into service as fast as possible for infantry. Especially with its mini-grenade ammo.

Would people quit wanking it to that goddamn proprietary-ammunition shotgun that can't cycle properly using other rounds?

[Shroom Man 777]

Of course, since you'd have to think about using other rounds like rocksalt, or bean bags, or tear gas, or birdshot, or door breachers, when Giant FaceFucking Demons are coming at you, rite?

No. You'd pump those fuckers full of Frag-12 mini-grenades.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Of course, since you'd have to think about using other rounds like rocksalt, or bean bags, or tear gas, or birdshot, or door breachers, when Giant FaceFucking Demons are coming at you, rite?

No. You'd pump those fuckers full of Frag-12 mini-grenades.

No you wouldn't.

You'd be firing slugs.

[Brovane]

Yeah the F-15 E line is still open IIRC, mostly because South Korea is ordering a bunch of enhanced Strike Eagles. I'd say screw the F-22's and go for expanding this production to the maximum possible level. 22's are suburb fighters, but they are designed to kill other EARTH fighters and some of the compromises based on their Stealth technology just make them that much less effective against Baldricks. They are not really designed for ground attack, can't carry anywhere near as high a payload e.t.c.

The F-15's is overkill against Harpies AND is still very useful in a ground attack role. You might even (probably not) be able to rip apart a number of the old F-15 Charlies grounded for airframe issues and use their parts to speed up production.

I don't disagree that a lot of the attributes of the F-22 are useless in this scenario. However the one big thing that the F-22 has going for it is a current production line that is currently open in active production. It doesn't make much sense to then shutdown a active production line when you desperately need equipment. If you want to produce either the B-2 or B-1 you would have to restart a cold production line.

[Xess]

Would people quit wanking it to that goddamn proprietary-ammunition shotgun that can't cycle properly using other rounds?

Well I'm no firearm expert. Tis what you get from campy shows on Discovery channel.

[KlavoHunter]

Well I'm no firearm expert. Tis what you get from campy shows on Discovery channel.

Apologies for the harsher-than-needed words - I made assumptions of your knowledge I probably shouldn't have.

[Junghalli]

Alternatively, if demons are engineered creatures designed to mate with humans, I suppose their genome might consist of a set of human-compatible chromosomes (2 DH), and a set of demon-only chromosomes (2 DE). Their gametes would contain (DE DH). If fertilizing a human gamete (containing HU), in the resulting (DE DH HU) zygote DE would somehow be inactive, would not replicate, and degenerate after a few rounds of mitosis, resulting in a (DH HU) Nephilim human. (2 DE 2 DH) would result from demon x demon, and create another demon.

Alternately the human and demon DNA could be intermixed freely as long the demon DNA is made up mostly or entirely of counterpart genes to human genes. Which would probably make the most sense if they created the warrior forms by actually starting out with humans and then carefully switching certain genes with foreign genes.

[Xess]

Apologies for the harsher-than-needed words - I made assumptions of your knowledge I probably shouldn't have.

Everyone does that sometimes, no worries.

As for the story itself, I'm really enjoying Abigor's learning process. The guy was lucky to escape the MLRS barrage.

[tedisbest]

Alternately the human and demon DNA could be intermixed freely as long the demon DNA is made up mostly or entirely of counterpart genes to human genes. Which would probably make the most sense if they created the warrior forms by actually starting out with humans and then carefully switching certain genes with foreign genes.

I thought about that, but I don't see how various demon features (wings, electric charges, etc) could be integrated into human-compatible chromosomes without causing gross birth deformities, because natural human chromosomes would not have regulatory factors for demon genes, while regulatory factors on the demon chromosome would promote those genes. So I figured demon-only genes and their regulators would be located on demon-only chromosomes, and the "susceptible mind" genes would be the only unusual genes on human-compatible chromosomes.

[MKSheppard]

This must be implemented in the story:

I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast. – Gen. William T. Sherman

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think what every here isn't taking into account is that this is a war economy on an unimaginable scale. We'll be building F-15s, F-16s, and F-22s simultaneously--as fast as the production lines can possibly work, 24/7 with downtimes only for absolutely necessary maintanence. Same for the B-2 and B-1B lines, our attack helicopters, our COIN-type aircraft, our AC-130s, etc. Hell, with the air force as stretched as it is, it might make sense to scrounge the country for every single former military aircraft we have in existence that is flyable and has hardpoints we can strap unguided rocket pods to.

[That NOS Guy]

I think what every here isn't taking into account is that this is a war economy on an unimaginable scale. We'll be building F-15s, F-16s, and F-22s simultaneously--as fast as the production lines can possibly work, 24/7 with downtimes only for absolutely necessary maintanence. Same for the B-2 and B-1B lines, our attack helicopters, our COIN-type aircraft, our AC-130s, etc. Hell, with the air force as stretched as it is, it might make sense to scrounge the country for every single former military aircraft we have in existence that is flyable and has hardpoints we can strap unguided rocket pods to.

In a pinch, wouldn't it also be possible to pull a Count Carl Gustav von Rosen?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think what every here isn't taking into account is that this is a war economy on an unimaginable scale. We'll be building F-15s, F-16s, and F-22s simultaneously--as fast as the production lines can possibly work, 24/7 with downtimes only for absolutely necessary maintanence. Same for the B-2 and B-1B lines, our attack helicopters, our COIN-type aircraft, our AC-130s, etc. Hell, with the air force as stretched as it is, it might make sense to scrounge the country for every single former military aircraft we have in existence that is flyable and has hardpoints we can strap unguided rocket pods to.

In a pinch, wouldn't it also be possible to pull a Count Carl Gustav von Rosen?

Oh, christ, I was already assuming that the first people to be drafted would be individuals who'd gotten a rating to fly Mig-15s, Mig-17s and Mig-21s and so on. They already have the skills as private pilots to fly high performance jets, so grab them and throw them into combat training programmes immediately. This being distinct from the retired reserve of airline pilots back wearing sky blue. "Congratulations, you're being drafted straight in as a lieutenant," will be a fairly common thing to be heard among private airfields around the country. Yeah, a fair number of them will wash out, but they'll have a powerful motivation to make sure they don't--they'll get transferred to the infantry then, most likely.

[Stuart]

In a pinch, wouldn't it also be possible to pull a Count Carl Gustav von Rosen?

The important thing to remember here is that there is a minimum speed limit of around 200 - 300 knots for aircraft. Below that speed and they'll be mobbed by harpies (of whom there are all too many) and torn apart in mid-air. Helicopters have already been made unusable until after the harpies have been driven off - remember there are literally thousands of the winged beasties.

Her Grace is quite right, the first thing that's going to happen is that people will be going around museums, gate gardians, private flying clubs, anywhere that has relatively high-performance aircraft and the people who know how to fly them. So, the Confederate Air Force (I refuse to call in the Commemorative Air Force) is likely to lose its B-29 and MiG-17 for certain. The piston-engined fighters are marginal cases, the Corsairs and Mustangs would probably be usuable but the older ones probably not.

With aircraft being brought back from the boneyard and otherwise recovered, there'll be plenty of aircraft for the recently-drafted pilots to fly.

By the way, the speed issue is where the F-22 really gets to be useful - that supercruise is well worth it. The problem with the F-15 and F-16 is that they're being built in small numbers and cranking up the line is harder than it sounds. The F-22 is being built in relatively large numbers so its less of a problem. The F-35 is probably doomed; the world is mobilizing so future build projects get canned.

[Brovane]

Is the tooling and jigs still around for the B-1B bombers?

[Gullible Jones]

A few points...

- The baldricks could use some kind of virus to introduce their genetic material into a target population. That would explain their dubious sexual practices, and if individuals carrying that genetic code were psychic, it could be used as a weapon of psychological warfare (and for intelligence gathering).

- It would be interesting to see where the different breeds come from. Are they different species? Do the baldricks have a breeding program of some kind? And where do the Heralds come from - especially the Behemoths, which have to be much, much stronger (by both meanings) than their brethren?