[WH40k] Black Templar research questions

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Re: [WH40k] Black Templar research questions

Post by Kuja »

Crom wrote:Do BTs have any respect for wash-outs? They seem to be big enough dicks to not want the failures around. And isn't failure fatal in SM exams?
First, not really. Second, it usually is but sometiems you'll get the occasional applicant who cannot for some reason mature into a full marine but survives his tests. Serfdom it is.
Do they get the hypocrisy of being intolerant to mutants considering some mutants, like Navigators, are arguably more human than they are? q
"Careful, brother. You are coming dangerously close to the Sin of Relativism."
Do BTs ever even bother remember being human? The reason why I ask was that I was planning for a major character to have been the son of a scholar. He entered the BTs but kept his interest in studying history.
I can see that happening.
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Re: [WH40k] Black Templar research questions

Post by [R_H] »

Kuja wrote:
Do BTs ever even bother remember being human? The reason why I ask was that I was planning for a major character to have been the son of a scholar. He entered the BTs but kept his interest in studying history.
I can see that happening.
Don't some chapters mind-wipe their marines recruited from feral worlds? Or are they just more heavily indoctrinated than recruits from more civilised worlds?
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Re: [WH40k] Black Templar research questions

Post by Kuja »

[R_H] wrote:Don't some chapters mind-wipe their marines recruited from feral worlds? Or are they just more heavily indoctrinated than recruits from more civilised worlds?
Some do, such as the Grey Knights, but the Black Templars are not among them.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

The Black Templars aren't all "NO RETREAT NO SURRENDER SPARTAAAAA!" dumbass fanatics though. Some of them are pretty smart.

My review of a short Black Templar story from LET THE GALAXY BURN:
Words of Blood.

A simplistic story where a paltry handful of a couple dozen Black Templar Space Marines take on this thousands-strong mob of Chaos cultists led by the Manskinner, a devotee of the Blood God Khorne. The story shows a nice contrast between the martial discipline of the Space Marine - even if these are the Black Templar fanatics we all know and love, who charge headfirst into battle like madmen - and the brutal inhuman and mindless savagery of the cultists.

The Black Templar commander defeats the enemy by retreating and retreating, and while his men - Space Marine fanatics - protest this, he still gets them to comply thanks to the chain of command.

Whereas the Manskinner and his bloodthirsty cultists, denied by the retreating Marines, are faced with a similar breakdown in the chain of command. But since they're motherfucking cultists, they end up going nuts and are consumed by their madness and after chasing the Marines fruitlessly, they end up butchering one another.

In the end, it's revealed that the Space Marine commander sort of expected this but didn't tell his men, in order to teach them the value of the chain of command and all that.

All in all, a good lesson. Shows that, while Space Marines are not invincible and cannot take on thousands-strong mobs with just a couple dozen Marines, they are still pretty hard motherfuckers and that they're no idiots.

SKRULLS FOR THE SKRULL THRONE!

Hell, it's pretty unconventional thinking not just for a fanatic Space Marine. As in while the cultists were reaching the boiling point in their madness and were charging towards the Black Templars, the Black Templar commander told them to hold their fire even when the cultists were like, just dozens of meters away. The over-excited cultists, unstimulated by the not-firing Marines, eventually go nuts and slaughter each other en masse.

So, no. Black Templars aren't morons and some of them are clever bastards, even if the average fanatic Templar might disagree with their methods. But I guess this story is an example of extremely unconventional Black Templar tactics (since the near-mutinous Templars were threatening the equivalent of court-martial to their smart commander) and probably shows some sort of shift in strategic dogma - the Black Templar commander basically showed his men that he was right and made them all STFU, n00bs.
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Post by Darmalus »

I just finished reading that short story yesterday. Makes a lot more sense now that I understand the typical BT behavior.
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Re: [WH40k] Black Templar research questions

Post by Crom »

Kuja wrote:First, not really. Second, it usually is but sometiems you'll get the occasional applicant who cannot for some reason mature into a full marine but survives his tests. Serfdom it is.
Do the Templars have a unique testing process? Or is it more along the usual Space Marine MO where they observe battles and pick out the most capable?
"Careful, brother. You are coming dangerously close to the Sin of Relativism."
Really? They covered their bases.
I can see that happening.
Alright, I'm glad that could be believable. It's weird trying to write characters who are stripped of so much of their humanity. I really admire Dan Abnett for his work because of that.
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hell, it's pretty unconventional thinking not just for a fanatic Space Marine. As in while the cultists were reaching the boiling point in their madness and were charging towards the Black Templars, the Black Templar commander told them to hold their fire even when the cultists were like, just dozens of meters away. The over-excited cultists, unstimulated by the not-firing Marines, eventually go nuts and slaughter each other en masse.

So, no. Black Templars aren't morons and some of them are clever bastards, even if the average fanatic Templar might disagree with their methods. But I guess this story is an example of extremely unconventional Black Templar tactics (since the near-mutinous Templars were threatening the equivalent of court-martial to their smart commander) and probably shows some sort of shift in strategic dogma - the Black Templar commander basically showed his men that he was right and made them all STFU, n00bs.
Thanks! This is just what I was searching for. I was beginning to despair that the Black Templars would be almost impossible to write as sympathetic heroes. The idea that I had was similar to this one!
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Re: [WH40k] Black Templar research questions

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Crom wrote: Are these serfs in the traditional sense of the word? I mean, are they and their families basically property of the Chapter? Could a Marine's descendants be among the serf families serving the Chapter?
This si what BFG says about Chapter Serfs:
These serfs come from the Chapter's home planet or the enclave they protect, many of them Novitiates or applicants who have failed some part of the recruiting or training proess. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, and indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter's Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and acess to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action - even without the support of their genetically modified lords.
This basically echoes what other people said, though I recall that some chapters differ a bit (Space Wolves still recruit from their home planet, but they will recruit serfs directly from the planet (as free men, but still armed and ready to fight if need be.) - given how utterly fatal Space Wolf training is even before implantation.

Also note that the "serfs" are not modified in any way, so they are recruited prior to the genetic modification procecss. After that they almost certainly are scouts.
Back to the topic of automation, would the Techmarines be responsible for maintaining their warships?
Yes. The Techmarines are basically the Astartes version of a techpriest/enginseer, though indoctrinated as much in the Chapter Cult as much as in the Machine Cult. (Some may have loyalties more one way or another, depending on Chapter.)
And what do they call computers?
Cogitators, Logic engines, Codifiers, and Metriculators there are probably lots of other names I can't recall offhand, but the first couple are the most common. Me I've favored "Cogitator" or "Logic Engine" the most since alot of 40K "computers" when used (like on starships) seem to have a semi-sentinent nature to them, especially on Space Marine warships.
Oh, and would it be believable to have a highly literate Black Templar? It sounds less and less likely the more I learn about them. What books are available for scholars, anyway, in the 40th millennium?
I'd imagine the most "scholarly" would probably be the Psykers - the Librarians, but the TEchmarines could be very literate as well. I also imagine Company commanders and Chapter leaders would be very literate/well read.

There are alot of chapters that favor literacy to some level - the most notable data-obsessives are the Blood Ravens. BEar in mind however that your "literate" person would also have to be exceptionally physically fit and tough as wlel as genetically pure.

One idea might be that the person was recruited off a Hive World, and was a former noble that for some reason abandoned his high upbringing in favor of the lower levels - such things have been known to happen before (Necromunda is my favorite example for this.) I doubt many "Feral" or "feudal" worlds would have many literate souls up to Imperium standards.

Mind you, if the Space Wolf novels are anything to go by, the training process of actual marines makes the whole "education level" of the applicant irrelevant - they seem to use some sort of machine with mind-impulse links to directly force-feed an accelerated (and vast) education into the recruit's mind, so they may end up becoming (basically) literate by that process too (perhaps the applicant's mind was unusually curious or receptive to new concepts and thsu assimilated it better.)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:The Black Templars aren't all "NO RETREAT NO SURRENDER SPARTAAAAA!" dumbass fanatics though. Some of them are pretty smart.

My review of a short Black Templar story from LET THE GALAXY BURN:

Words of Blood.
It was also, IIRC Written by Ben Counter, the same guy who brought us the Soul Drinkers. Imagine my shock in reading that story :o

[R_H] wrote: Don't some chapters mind-wipe their marines recruited from feral worlds? Or are they just more heavily indoctrinated than recruits from more civilised worlds?
No, they just indoctrinate the hell out of them (including fiddling with their brains to make them more loyal, if Space Wolf is any indicator.[/quote]
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Re: [WH40k] Black Templar research questions

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Sidewinder wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:They barely tolerate other Imperium psykers and the slightest hint of corruption will make them seek to destroy the source (This happens in one of the Armageddon Black Templar novels - they turn and fight another Space Marine chapter suspected of corruption.)
Can you provide the title of this novel? I'd like to read about that action myself.
Crusade for Armageddon, the sequel to Conquest of ARmageddon, by Jonathan Green. Good luck finding them though; iirc they're out of print and rather costly to acquire.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Another thing is that in Conquest of Armageddon, that Black Templar company was really pissing themselves and worrying since they lost a squad in the jungles of Armageddon. That squad had an Apothecary who extracted gene-seed, and since gene-seed is a limited resource, the other Templars sent a rescue team to retrieve that sacred gene-seed and the Apothecary.

For a while, the rescue team was transported by Land Raider. The team included a Dreadnought. As in, a Dreadnought riding inside a Land Raider!
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Post by Lost Soal »

You used to be able to do that in the rules as well. Back when the capacity for an Ork Battlewagon was "how ever many models can physically fit on".
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Post by andrewgpaul »

Heck, back then, you could fit 10 Marines, 5 Terminators or a Dreadnought in a Rhino. And have it shoot out the top hatch, while being driven around the board at ~20" a turn.

As for relations between the Marines and their recruiting pool, the Shira Calurnia novels mention that she has a relative (great-great uncle or similar) in the Ultramarines, and that that's a great honour in Ultramar.
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Post by Lord Revan »

I think it varies from chapter to chapter, as in some worlds and/or with some chapters it might be considered great honor and with others a nessery evil.
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Post by Duckie »

Crom wrote:
Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:Some quotes from Codex: BT just to get the general vibe here:

RIGHTEOUS ZEAL
Whilst most Space Marines under heavy fire or facing insurmountable odds in close combat will retreat, read to counter-attack, the Black Templars will often hurl themselves at the enemy with even greater determination and fervent anger, their own casualties only serving to spur them on faster, hungry for vengeance on the slayers of their brethren.


KILL THEM ALL
Black Templars are so zealous in their persecution of the enemies of the Emperor that they will often try to kill the nearest enemy to them, even when shooting a more distant enemy might be more tactically sound.


NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!
Black Templars battle brothers fight with righteous anger and are loath to retreat before an enemy. When in an assault, all Black Templars units are Fearless.


(pg 23)

In short: If you write BTs as crazy, suicidal, bloodthirsty lunatics... you're probably not writing enough sanguine, suicidal lunacy yet.
By Thor's hammer! I assumed they were zealots but I severely underestimated their zeal! At least that makes some things about writing a BT easier.
Well, the Black Templars are supposed to be the 40k equivalent to people who will butcher an entire town and fight against 10 to 1 odds while shouting CÆLUM DENIQUE.

Which means they'll butcher an entire planet for looking at them funny and charge a fortified position that is orders of magnitudes stronger than them.

And then win, because they're Space Marines. :)
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

MRDOD wrote:Well, the Black Templars are supposed to be the 40k equivalent to people who will butcher an entire town and fight against 10 to 1 odds while shouting CÆLUM DENIQUE.

Which means they'll butcher an entire planet for looking at them funny and charge a fortified position that is orders of magnitudes stronger than them.

And then win, because they're Space Marines. :)
Sounds like they'd get along pretty well with the Death Korps.
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Post by Darth Smiley »

MRDOD wrote:And then win, because they're Space Marines. :)
That's one of those things I don't like about 40k. I don't mind the over-the-topness of it (that's what makes 40k awesome in the first place), and in some cases, the zealotry is justified in-universe. But I don't like it when the different factions get to be 'lolz teh fanatical zealot dudes!" without the penalties that tend to accompany zealotry - namely, the tendency to get WTFPWNED by enemies that have clearer heads.

The fact that Space Marines CAN charge fortifications that are orders of magnitude stronger than them and get away with it annoys me. I'd like to see a campaign where the rebels/aliens taunt the space marines into attacking fortification after fortification - and the Marines are too busy going "rar! GOD EMPEROR!" to notice that they are winning the battles but losing the war. Or better still, just flat out losing battles because they keep walking into artillery killzones, ambushes, minefields, fortified positions.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

Darth Smiley wrote:That's one of those things I don't like about 40k. I don't mind the over-the-topness of it (that's what makes 40k awesome in the first place), and in some cases, the zealotry is justified in-universe. But I don't like it when the different factions get to be 'lolz teh fanatical zealot dudes!" without the penalties that tend to accompany zealotry - namely, the tendency to get WTFPWNED by enemies that have clearer heads.

The fact that Space Marines CAN charge fortifications that are orders of magnitude stronger than them and get away with it annoys me. I'd like to see a campaign where the rebels/aliens taunt the space marines into attacking fortification after fortification - and the Marines are too busy going "rar! GOD EMPEROR!" to notice that they are winning the battles but losing the war. Or better still, just flat out losing battles because they keep walking into artillery killzones, ambushes, minefields, fortified positions.
That is one of the Black Templars' failings, though. Most Marine Chapters are level-headed enough to know when to charge and when not to, but the BTs are one of a few exceptions to that (one of their Vows, for instance, forces them to charge at any nearby enemies regardless of tactical options). Marines aren't invulnerable despite what the general internet groupthink might say.

If anything, the short story Shroom mentioned is a good example. The BTs would have charged into a clusterfuck and taken heavy casualties as a result, were it not for a relatively exceptional commander.

And though it is of questionable canon, check out the Dawn of War intro - the Blood Ravens nublets charge out of their dug-in position and get slaughtered because of it.
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Post by Xenophobe3691 »

Darth Smiley wrote:That's one of those things I don't like about 40k. I don't mind the over-the-topness of it (that's what makes 40k awesome in the first place), and in some cases, the zealotry is justified in-universe. But I don't like it when the different factions get to be 'lolz teh fanatical zealot dudes!" without the penalties that tend to accompany zealotry - namely, the tendency to get WTFPWNED by enemies that have clearer heads.

The fact that Space Marines CAN charge fortifications that are orders of magnitude stronger than them and get away with it annoys me. I'd like to see a campaign where the rebels/aliens taunt the space marines into attacking fortification after fortification - and the Marines are too busy going "rar! GOD EMPEROR!" to notice that they are winning the battles but losing the war. Or better still, just flat out losing battles because they keep walking into artillery killzones, ambushes, minefields, fortified positions.
Actually, in universe, that's what happened to Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists. Perturabo then took all their gene-seed and sacrificed it for daemonhood.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:And though it is of questionable canon, check out the Dawn of War intro - the Blood Ravens nublets charge out of their dug-in position and get slaughtered because of it.
This is particularly irksome.
Sheer stupidity aside, they could at least show them taking on greater numerical odds. If Space Marines were that wimpy, a chapter of a thousand men would be irrelevant in a war.


This is even worse especially since the Blood Ravens are later described as being very methodical with their battle plans, facilitated by the unusual precognitive abilities of their Librarians.

Probably a retcon of sorts, since Epistolary Akios didn't seem to be particularly gifted on a tactical or strategic level. Admittedly he was working against his brothers later on, but even before Myr made psychic contact he seemed rather noobish and Angelos had to correct him on a few occassions.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Ghetto edit:
If Space Marines were that wimpy, a chapter of a thousand men would be irrelevant in a war.. much less a single company. Only the Blood Ravens 3rd company was present on Tartarus.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

hmm, what would the =I= or black templar's reaction to an idividual with photographic memory, good pattern/logic talents, and unusually good observation be?

you know the classic William of Occam, Sherlock Holmes, Aspergers case detective?
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:hmm, what would the =I= or black templar's reaction to an idividual with photographic memory, good pattern/logic talents, and unusually good observation be?
It's called a "lexmechanic" or "autosavant," they're everywhere. :P
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Re: [WH40k] Black Templar research questions

Post by Crom »

Connor MacLeod wrote:This basically echoes what other people said, though I recall that some chapters differ a bit (Space Wolves still recruit from their home planet, but they will recruit serfs directly from the planet (as free men, but still armed and ready to fight if need be.) - given how utterly fatal Space Wolf training is even before implantation.

Also note that the "serfs" are not modified in any way, so they are recruited prior to the genetic modification procecss. After that they almost certainly are scouts.
It's strange that I've never encountered serfs in any of the novels I have read. It seems like the support troops of Space Marines could play incredibly important roles in the success of Chapters.
Yes. The Techmarines are basically the Astartes version of a techpriest/enginseer, though indoctrinated as much in the Chapter Cult as much as in the Machine Cult. (Some may have loyalties more one way or another, depending on Chapter.)
Do Techmarines command a crew of technician/serfs? Or are there just teams of Techmarines?
Cogitators, Logic engines, Codifiers, and Metriculators there are probably lots of other names I can't recall offhand, but the first couple are the most common. Me I've favored "Cogitator" or "Logic Engine" the most since alot of 40K "computers" when used (like on starships) seem to have a semi-sentinent nature to them, especially on Space Marine warships.
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I'd imagine the most "scholarly" would probably be the Psykers - the Librarians, but the TEchmarines could be very literate as well. I also imagine Company commanders and Chapter leaders would be very literate/well read.

There are alot of chapters that favor literacy to some level - the most notable data-obsessives are the Blood Ravens. BEar in mind however that your "literate" person would also have to be exceptionally physically fit and tough as wlel as genetically pure.

One idea might be that the person was recruited off a Hive World, and was a former noble that for some reason abandoned his high upbringing in favor of the lower levels - such things have been known to happen before (Necromunda is my favorite example for this.) I doubt many "Feral" or "feudal" worlds would have many literate souls up to Imperium standards.

Mind you, if the Space Wolf novels are anything to go by, the training process of actual marines makes the whole "education level" of the applicant irrelevant - they seem to use some sort of machine with mind-impulse links to directly force-feed an accelerated (and vast) education into the recruit's mind, so they may end up becoming (basically) literate by that process too (perhaps the applicant's mind was unusually curious or receptive to new concepts and thsu assimilated it better.)
Well, my original idea was for there to be a commander of the Black Templars with a scholarly nature. A method I was considering explaining it was that he was the son of an intellectual on a less advanced world. The technology on the world was perhaps roughly World War I era technology. He grew up among scholars and intellectuals until his eventual recruitment into the Black Templars. Later on, as a Black Templar, he continued to pursue studying history and garnered a reputation as an eccentric.
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Post by Crom »

MRDOD wrote:Well, the Black Templars are supposed to be the 40k equivalent to people who will butcher an entire town and fight against 10 to 1 odds while shouting CÆLUM DENIQUE.

Which means they'll butcher an entire planet for looking at them funny and charge a fortified position that is orders of magnitudes stronger than them.

And then win, because they're Space Marines. :)
Do they really butcher whole planets often? The Inquisitor in Dawn of War seemed to be taken back by the Blood Ravens' committing their homeworld to Exterminatus.
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Joined: 2006-03-04 09:23pm

Post by Shadowtraveler »

Crom wrote:Do they really butcher whole planets often? The Inquisitor in Dawn of War seemed to be taken back by the Blood Ravens' committing their homeworld to Exterminatus.
He might be overexagerating a bit.

It would make little sense if it were true. Not even the Dark Apostles, easily the most religiously fanatical of the Traitor Legions, would act like that without a sound plan of attack.
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