Porkins and Rebel pilot standards

TithonusSyndrome · Post by **TithonusSyndrome** » 2008-02-29 07:39pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a man of Porkins' physique would not typically be considered ideal fighter pilot material in any contemporary military we can point to here and now. What does this mean about the Rebel pilot corps; are their standards indicative of an unorganized, desperate guerrilla resistance, or is SW-level tech advanced enough to render any performance liability that an overweight and (possibly) out-of-shape pilot may have negligible?

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2008-02-29 07:55pm

or is SW-level tech advanced enough to render any performance liability that an overweight and (possibly) out-of-shape pilot may have negligible?

I cannot remember which of the X-Wing books it was, but there was a mention of how Porkins' weight affected his flying. What i'm quoting is from Wookiepedia, because I cannot remember which of the books it was in and I do not have any of them in my possession at this time.

ek flew with Red Squadron during the Rebel's attack on the first Death Star. Though his X-wing fighter was maneuverable enough to avoid the Death Star's sluggish turbolasers, a mechanical malfunction hampered his ability to dodge enemy fire. Jek always set his acceleration compensator to full power, and unfortunately in this case it caused him to misjudge his altitude. He needed a short break to restabilize, during which one of the Death Star's turbolaser emplacements was able to home in on him and shoot him down.

From what other bits and pieces availiable you hear about Porkins, he was at least a somewhat skilled pilot and not just someone rushed into service entirely out of desperation, although a pilot with a healthier physique may not have found himself in the situation that killed Porkins.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2008-02-29 07:55pm

IIRC Piggy, the original, was considered quite a good pilot by his comrades.

IIRC it is mentioned in one of the X-Wing books that Porkins liked to keep his inertial compensator on full, possibly to account for his weight, and he crashed in the DS2 because he thought he was pulling up more than he really was.

I don't think that the Rebel Alliance was in the position where it could refuse any volunteer, let alone an experienced pilot.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-02-29 08:29pm

Wasn't he a retired pilot who just got fat?

TC Pilot · Post by **TC Pilot** » 2008-02-29 08:47pm

Obviously, the Alliance was desperate for pilots. They accepted Luke, after all. And it sounded as if they were perfectly willing to accept Han, if he asked.

Tanasinn · Post by **Tanasinn** » 2008-02-29 09:39pm

Han was a profesional smuggler, though. Luke was some kid screaming about whomp rats.

I think the Alliance was pretty hard up, yeah.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2008-02-29 10:59pm

Tanasinn wrote:Han was a profesional smuggler, though. Luke was some kid screaming about whomp rats.

I think the Alliance was pretty hard up, yeah.

He did come with a personal recomendation from an established pilot though in the form of Biggs. Plus, for that first mission he flew, they were also on a pretty tight time restriction.

JGregory32 · Post by **JGregory32** » 2008-03-01 11:47am

I find it more telling that by the time of ROTJ Han had acquired the rank of general.

Don't forget that this is the guy who basically spent the time between TESB and ROTJ encased in carbonite.

What's peculiar is that General is a rank given to commanders of land or air forces of some size. Han led, at best, a commando raid. Why the hell was he given the title of General?Anybody know?

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2008-03-01 12:11pm

JGregory32 wrote: Don't forget that this is the guy who basically spent the time between TESB and ROTJ encased in carbonite.

He want encased in carbonite during the few years (IIRC) between ANH and TESB, and they had some battles during that time.

What's peculiar is that General is a rank given to commanders of land or air forces of some size. Han led, at best, a commando raid. Why the hell was he given the title of General?Anybody know?

I dont know much about this part, but perhaps since he is a General rank in the Rebellion, but never had any formal training at actually commanding such large number of people, he had an easier time with a few dudes to order around.

Maybe he just didnt like to know that he could command large number of people who may get killed.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2008-03-01 12:59pm

In Hans defence he was an graduate of the Imperial Academy on Cardia and even served as an officer for a time so he's hardly some schmoe that walked in off the street with no clue what he was doing.

In regards to the General rank, they do seem to do things a little different in the GFFA in regards to ranks. There are examples of others getting the rank of General despite not being Army, notably Lando Calrissian who was in charge of the fighter squadrons at Endor, Garm bel Iblis and Wedge Antillies, IIRC General is equiviland for Admiral in the New Republic.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2008-03-01 01:38pm

Lord Pounder wrote:In Hans defence he was an graduate of the Imperial Academy on Cardia and even served as an officer for a time so he's hardly some schmoe that walked in off the street with no clue what he was doing.

In regards to the General rank, they do seem to do things a little different in the GFFA in regards to ranks. There are examples of others getting the rank of General despite not being Army, notably Lando Calrissian who was in charge of the fighter squadrons at Endor, Garm bel Iblis and Wedge Antillies, IIRC General is equiviland for Admiral in the New Republic.

Fighter group CO's could very well be Generals. That's how it works in RL air forces. All depends on what military traditions (if any) that they have.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2008-03-01 01:54pm

Maybe, but in the case of Bel Iblis he was the equivilant of an Admiral.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-01 02:09pm

Darth Ruinus wrote:He want encased in carbonite during the few years (IIRC) between ANH and TESB, and they had some battles during that time.

Yes, but he still was only a Commander by TESB. That remains a significant three-step promotion for nothing.

However, Han did command forces later on, as a General would; the Zsinj Campaign springs to mind.

On the General/Admiral issue, the ranks generally seem to be used more or less interchangeably. In General A'baht's case, for example, it is specifically mentioned that he carries an Air Force rank despite being in the Navy for cultural reasons. It would seem, then, that the difference is mostly cosmetic, even within a branch.

JGregory32 · Post by **JGregory32** » 2008-03-01 04:17pm

Darth Hoth wrote:On the General/Admiral issue, the ranks generally seem to be used more or less interchangeably. In General A'baht's case, for example, it is specifically mentioned that he carries an Air Force rank despite being in the Navy for cultural reasons. It would seem, then, that the difference is mostly cosmetic, even within a branch.

Maybe someone whose spent some time in or studied the armed forces could give us some clue as to the differing duties of Admirals and Generals. From my own knowledge, however, Admirals and Generals have massively different skill sets and techniques for fighting battles. They would not be interchangeable.

It's quite likely that Han was given the promotion to General becasue the mission was seen as suicide and Han was planning to leave the rebellion soon anyway. Giving a three step promotion just before a suicide mission with the understanding that should he survive he would be retiring does seem a reasonable thing Han could have requested.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2008-03-01 08:26pm

TC Pilot wrote:Obviously, the Alliance was desperate for pilots. They accepted Luke, after all. And it sounded as if they were perfectly willing to accept Han, if he asked.

If they accepted Luke they'd certainly accept Han. Han actually had a fair bit of experience flying against Imperials, and he had his own ship to boot.

JGregory32 wrote:What's peculiar is that General is a rank given to commanders of land or air forces of some size. Han led, at best, a commando raid. Why the hell was he given the title of General?Anybody know?

Jar-Jar Binks was also a General. I don't think the term means a whole lot in the Star Wars galaxy.

JGregory32 · Post by **JGregory32** » 2008-03-01 08:36pm

You know what's funny? They made Lando a general and he has less qualification than Han did. Han at least had some military training and was a semi-succesful smuggler, while Lando was bascially a gambler who ran a mining operation too small for the mining guild to even care about.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2008-03-01 09:19pm

JGregory32 wrote:You know what's funny? They made Lando a general and he has less qualification than Han did. Han at least had some military training and was a semi-succesful smuggler, while Lando was bascially a gambler who ran a mining operation too small for the mining guild to even care about.

Lando said it himself. Apparently someone told them about the Battle of Tanaab, namely Han Solo. Just another case of nepotism in the Rebel Alliance.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-03-01 09:26pm

And unlike Han, Lando actually has experience coordinating locally large-scale if not military, then at least guerilla operations. Star Cave of Thon Boka. If anything he's MORE qualified to be a General than Han is.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2008-03-01 11:20pm

Batman wrote:And unlike Han, Lando actually has experience coordinating locally large-scale if not military, then at least guerilla operations. Star Cave of Thon Boka. If anything he's MORE qualified to be a General than Han is.

I'd argue that his 'experience' as an administrator would be useful for coordinating Rebel supplies and making sure as many people had what they needed. A General in the Supply side, with some tactical ability. The tactical side was why he got put in charge of a few fighter groups, while Ackbar commanded the overall battle against the ships.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2008-03-01 11:40pm

JGregory32 wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:On the General/Admiral issue, the ranks generally seem to be used more or less interchangeably. In General A'baht's case, for example, it is specifically mentioned that he carries an Air Force rank despite being in the Navy for cultural reasons. It would seem, then, that the difference is mostly cosmetic, even within a branch.
Maybe someone whose spent some time in or studied the armed forces could give us some clue as to the differing duties of Admirals and Generals. From my own knowledge, however, Admirals and Generals have massively different skill sets and techniques for fighting battles. They would not be interchangeable.

There are countries which use "army" style ranks for their naval forces - a space faring military force may end up using naval or army style ranks based purely on cultural precedent - if the US commissioned a space battleship, who would be running it? The Air Force? The Navy? A "Space Force" or a "Space Navy"? Consider that before declaring "Generals and Admirals have different skillsets" arbitrarily.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2008-03-01 11:47pm

Batman wrote:And unlike Han, Lando actually has experience coordinating locally large-scale if not military, then at least guerilla operations. Star Cave of Thon Boka. If anything he's MORE qualified to be a General than Han is.

Well,Han did help coordinate the invasion of Ylesia.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2008-03-02 06:55am

dunno about other militaries but in the finnish defence force, the naval officers command the costal forces in addition of the actual navy and there can be only 1 full(aka 4 star) admiral or general who is in overall command of the whole force (in peace time).

with space forces the difference between "navy" and "air force" also becomes rather academic.

as for Jar-Jar he was in command of a part of the grand army (in name only though as his command was rather poor), though he'd be a prime example of political nomination with little to no actual skill in commanding forces in the field of battle.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-02 08:13am

JGregory32 wrote:Maybe someone whose spent some time in or studied the armed forces could give us some clue as to the differing duties of Admirals and Generals. From my own knowledge, however, Admirals and Generals have massively different skill sets and techniques for fighting battles. They would not be interchangeable.

It's quite likely that Han was given the promotion to General becasue the mission was seen as suicide and Han was planning to leave the rebellion soon anyway. Giving a three step promotion just before a suicide mission with the understanding that should he survive he would be retiring does seem a reasonable thing Han could have requested.

As I said, and others elaborated, a Starfleet/Space Force may probably use the ranks interchangeably based on cultural precedent or, for all we know, individual whim. This is what the evidence suggests. Nor is this blurring of the armed forces branches unique to the Rebel Alliance/New Republic; in the Imperial military, we have General Wessel commanding naval forces, for example, or Daala's brevet-promotion to Admiral from Corporal (a non-Navy rank).

However, your explanation for Han's promotion in RotJ appears convincing; I had not considered it from that angle before.

wjs7744 · Post by **wjs7744** » 2008-03-02 09:17am

Lord Revan wrote:with space forces the difference between "navy" and "air force" also becomes rather academic.

True, although there is still the distinction between fighter commands (i.e. Air Force) and the capital ships (more naval).

Quite where the line would be drawn I'm not sure, but until contradicted by someone more knowledgeable, I tend to consider the defining line between ships with a cockpit, and those with decks and a bridge.

Obviously this isn't perfect, with the falcon for example having both decks to walk around on, sleeping quarters etc. and a cockpit, but then again, it is hardly primarily a military vessel.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2008-03-02 03:04pm

wjs7744 wrote: True, although there is still the distinction between fighter commands (i.e. Air Force) and the capital ships (more naval).

Quite where the line would be drawn I'm not sure, but until contradicted by someone more knowledgeable, I tend to consider the defining line between ships with a cockpit, and those with decks and a bridge.

Obviously this isn't perfect, with the falcon for example having both decks to walk around on, sleeping quarters etc. and a cockpit, but then again, it is hardly primarily a military vessel.

The problem with saying that there is necessarily a distinction is easily contradicted by simply noting that even on earth, we have an example of a massive air force that uses naval ranks - the US Navy, who on its own has more aircraft then just about every other national air force on earth!

The case may well be the same for Star Wars, but of course the tangled mess of the EU never really made things clear - are X-wings based on Calamari cruisers "Space force" X-Wings? "Naval Aviation" X-wings? "Starfigher Command" X-wings seconded to "Alliance Fleet Command"?

Generals in real life also can exercise authority over fleets or fly their flag from a warship - US Marine Generals for example...