Israel warns Gaza invasion impending

[The Grim Squeaker]

Actually, the best thing really would be for the IDF to get that fancy anti-rocket intercept device (laser or anti-missile missile) deployed and just swat down everything incoming. The tech isn't there yet, but once it is there, then Hamas can just cork off rocket's to their black little hearts' content and it'd all be for nothing.

Then the Palestinians can ask "why are you assholes wasting money on rockets when we have kids to feed?"

You mean the "Iron Horse" tech? According to Ehud Barak (Defense minister) it's about 3-4 years until it can be deployed effectively..

[MKSheppard]

Then the Palestinians can ask "why are you assholes wasting money on rockets when we have kids to feed?"

What's more likely is they will periodically attack and break down the Egypt/Gaza boarder walls so that they can send sucide bombers in to Egypt, and then from there, into Israel's unprotected Sinai for insertion.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Actually, the best thing really would be for the IDF to get that fancy anti-rocket intercept device (laser or anti-missile missile) deployed and just swat down everything incoming. The tech isn't there yet, but once it is there, then Hamas can just cork off rocket's to their black little hearts' content and it'd all be for nothing.

Then the Palestinians can ask "why are you assholes wasting money on rockets when we have kids to feed?"

It would be nice, because then Israel could simply play the abused rather than abuser role a lot better. I always imagine the Paladin tanks from C&C: Generals plinking GLA infantry RPGs and just sitting there.

Only you cover all of Israel and make it so that saturation attacks even during bad weather are hopeless. Solid-state lasers and future compact power sources should enable such units to be around in the not-too-distant future.

[hongi]

Still very, very high, if not as high as that of the Bedouin (Israeli arabs who are Bedouin), with them [/url]having the highest population growth rate in the world. (Quick [url=5.5 percent]source, although I can try to dig up a better one if you need).

Also, the Israeli Arab (But non Bedouin) birth rates have remained stable at 4.5% since 1985.

So who do you think will win the demographic battle?

[hongi]

Well shite.

Israeli troops turned heavy firepower on rocket squads bombarding southern Israel Saturday, killing 54 Palestinians in the deadliest day in Gaza since the current round of fighting erupted in 2000.

Guess we can expect an invasion soon.

[Ace Pace]

Seventy Palestinians and 3 IDF soldiers have died so far, and a few more wounded in Sderot and Ashkelon.

This article pretty much sums up what faces the Israeli goverment right now.

2 dreadful options


Israel can either reoccupy Gaza or talk with Hamas; there’s no other way
Published: 03.02.08, 12:34 / Israel Opinion


Just like Hizbullah did on the fourth day of the war in the north, Hamas is now asking, implicitly if not explicitly, for a ceasefire.


In Hamas’ view, it achieved everything it could get: It proved its stamina, the ability to launch rockets, and the ability to fight. The time has come to rehabilitate and rearm.


In July 2006, the government insisted on ignoring the requests for a ceasefire and continuing the fighting. That was a tragic mistake. Yet Lebanon is one thing and Gaza is another thing. Israel’s dilemma vis-à-vis Hamas is fundamentally different than the dilemma it was facing vis-à-vis Hizbullah.


The government of Israel has been postponing the decision on how to handle the Hamas regime in Gaza for eight and a half

bloody months.
The time has come to decide.


What Hamas is offering is in fact an understanding that would see an end to rocket attacks in exchange for the IDF ending its targeted eliminations. The smuggling of arms and munitions would continue until Hamas builds up enough strength to attack again, this time to an even longer range, all the way to Ashdod, or Tel Aviv. This is a proposal that an Israeli government cannot accept.


Israel also cannot reconcile itself to the existing reality whereby a growing number of civilians in the south are exposed to daily fire. It is immoral and illogical. We can expect Israeli citizens to sustain a certain level of risk, but it is unfair to expect them to face danger over an extended period of time without seeing light at the end of the tunnel.


At the end of the day, the debate can be narrowed down to two options: Either the IDF goes ahead and reoccupies Gaza or large sections of it, or Israel decides to enter open, direct, and serious talks with Hamas. The third way, to kill and absorb, absorb and kill, is unfortunately not bringing about the desired result: It doesn’t end the rocket fire and doesn’t curb the arms smuggling.


Gaza different than West Bank
Each option involves a high cost. The IDF would have liked to imitate the success of the 2002 operation Defensive Shield in the West Bank. During the operation, the IDF took over the West Bank without bearing the responsibility for residents’ daily lives. The power and interests of the Palestinian Authority and of mayors were sufficient to fill the immediate needs and enable life to go on under the shadow of the IDF’s bayonets.


The situation in Gaza is different. Occupying the Strip could exact a difficult human toll from both sides. An even more difficult problem for Israel is the question of controlling the area the day after it is occupied. The meager coexistence between Israel and the PA in the West Bank cannot be copied as is to Gaza.


The second option, to reconcile ourselves to Hamas’ rule in Gaza and negotiate a long-term ceasefire with it, involves prices that are just as high. Among other things, it constitutes a death sentence for Mahmoud Abbas’ regime, which Israel hoped to reach a deal with. It also ends the international boycott on Hamas, and it marks the acceptance of the existence of an Iranian base near Israel’s heartland.


Choosing between the two options is like choosing between plague and cholera. Nonetheless, it appears there is no other choice.


And so, an unpopular government, low on public credit, has been destined to make two fateful military decisions; once against Hizbullah, and now vis-à-vis Hamas. And there is still a third decision lying in wait, vis-à-vis Iran.

[MKSheppard]

How about Door Four, we go in, and wreck Gaza, and kill 5% of it's population, and then withdraw?

[Stark]

How about Door Four, we go in, and wreck Gaza, and kill 5% of it's population, and then withdraw?

What's the logic behind this?

[MKSheppard]

What's the logic behind this?

"Give me ten years and you will not recognize Germany"

But basically, really turn the place into what it's supposed to be; a giant shattered refugee camp; not a city with multi-story buildings.

[Stark]

That's not logic, that's a meaningless quote and a desire for destruction. Logic would be 'through atrocities committed against the population, lower the public support for terrorism' or something, even better if there was some explanation of how you'd expect that to work.

[Ace Pace]

And if so, for what purpose? [To what purpose? english help?]
Gaza is 1.3 million people living in third world conditions. They are utterly dependent on international goodwill to pressure Israel to give them food and water and other vital resources. There's no functioning civilization there, unless you count rule of the gun as civilization.

[MKSheppard]

And if so, for what purpose? [To what purpose? english help?]

Break Palestinian civilian morale to the level that terrorist attacks no longer are supported by the wide spectra of the population. As it is; when an attack on Israel is successfully carried out by suicide bombers; the place breaks out in celebrations, and free candy handed out; the same thing happened on 9/11.

And third world? Well no. If the place is such a turd world shithole, then why were the Gazans bringing in such nonessential items as flashy motorcycles, TVs, etc instead of food when Hamas blew down the Philadelphia corridor fortifications?

[Ace Pace]

And if so, for what purpose? [To what purpose? english help?]

Break Palestinian civilian morale to the level that terrorist attacks no longer are supported by the wide spectra of the population. As it is; when an attack on Israel is successfully carried out by suicide bombers; the place breaks out in celebrations, and free candy handed out; the same thing happened on 9/11.

And third world? Well no. If the place is such a turd world shithole, then why were the Gazans bringing in such nonessential items as flashy motorcycles, TVs, etc instead of food when Hamas blew down the Philadelphia corridor fortifications?

Because thanks to the European Union and other international organisations Israel supplies all the food and medical supplies.

Israel allowed 62 trucks carrying medical supplies and humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip through Sufa Crossing, Sunday. The supplies included, among others, thousands of blood units and basic foods.



Earlier Sunday, Egypt opened its only crossing with the Gaza Strip to receive wounded Palestinians, a day after 54 people were killed in Israel's latest offensive against militants firing rockets from the territory, said a medical official.

[/quote]

[Admiral Valdemar]

That's not logic, that's a meaningless quote and a desire for destruction. Logic would be 'through atrocities committed against the population, lower the public support for terrorism' or something, even better if there was some explanation of how you'd expect that to work.

Sounds like the Swordfish school of dealing with terrorism: cause atrocities so bad to the other side that they reconsider avenging such attacks.

I can't really imagine it working, given the shit many people go through and their ability to still retain hatred and fighting spirit. It's amazing and annoying how persistent we can be at that.

[Sarevok]

Break Palestinian civilian morale to the level that terrorist attacks no longer are supported by the wide spectra of the population. As it is; when an attack on Israel is successfully carried out by suicide bombers; the place breaks out in celebrations, and free candy handed out; the same thing happened on 9/11.

Soo you would kill 65000 people to prevent less than 2-3 deaths a month ?

This does not compute.

[KlavoHunter]

What's the logic behind this?

Destructive raids to keep one's enemies down are a commonplace feature in Muslim history. Check under the heading of "Razzia".

Soo you would kill 65000 people to prevent less than 2-3 deaths a month ?

This does not compute.

So, instead, Israel should sit on its hands while its people are murdered in dribs and drabs?

[TithonusSyndrome]

Soo you would kill 65000 people to prevent less than 2-3 deaths a month ?

This does not compute.

So, instead, Israel should sit on its hands while its people are murdered in dribs and drabs?

I suppose that pragmatically working towards a diplomatic solution is out of the question? Even at a rate of, let's say a generous 50 Israeli deaths a year, it would take 1300 years before the death toll would exceed that of what Sarevok suggested would happen as a result of major military operations. Even if Palestine IS a land currently occupied by Islamist fanatics, I'd think that secularization would creep in and sober them on that kind of timescale.

[Beowulf]

The difference in deaths between Israelis and Palestinians is not due to lack of will on the part of the Palestinians, but rather a lack of ability. Diplomatic solutions haven't worked. Everytime Israel gives an inch, the Palestinians start rocketing cities. Casually accepting the deaths of your citizens is not the way of a responsible government.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I think it's clear the diplomacy game doesn't work in this case. I've grown tired of the number of times I've seen people at tables, talks of a breakthrough and then before you know it, rockets, suicide bombers and IAF air strikes with boots on the ground not 6 months after.

The people are the problem. Let them do what they want, I frankly don't give a shit any more. Both sides are as bad as one another and as culpable for the clusterfuck we have (yet again).

[Edi]

Those who think that piling atrocities on the Palestinians is going to do anything to dampen their anger and resolve are morons. Israel's casual disregard of Palestinian civilians is precisely part of the problem. As long as they keep killing indiscriminately, the Israeli government has no moral high ground of any sort. It's not going to solve anything unless Israel commits wholesale genocide.

I don't really give a shit anymore about them killing each other, though if the kill ratio were 1:1, I'd be much more pleased. That would force them to actually do something about it to really end the hostilities.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Let's give Hamas some F-16s and Challenger 2s and see how it goes.

[Uraniun235]

So, instead, Israel should sit on its hands while its people are murdered in dribs and drabs?

Well, you reap what you sow. This entire situation is the product of fucked up British, and later Israeli policy dating back for nearly a century. If Israel can't - or won't - find a solution that doesn't involve beating the Palestinians into submission over and over again, they have only their fathers and themselves to blame.

But basically, really turn the place into what it's supposed to be; a giant shattered refugee camp; not a city with multi-story buildings.

Curtis would be very disappointed in you, Shep. You know damn well that such an action wouldn't solve anything, that it would only guarantee future conflict and bloodshed and pose a continuing threat to Israeli security.

What are the long-term objectives served by turning Gaza into a "giant shattered refugee camp"? Is it some perverse desire to see the Palestinians condemned to refugee life for perpetuity? Do you believe that such an action would motivate the Palestinians to abandon Gaza (in which case there is the important question of where do they go and how do they get there?)?

[cosmicalstorm]

Let's give Hamas some F-16s and Challenger 2s and see how it goes.

Actually they would probably end up losing them right away, arabs have proved to be consistently bad at engaging in modern warfare.

[Sarevok]

So, instead, Israel should sit on its hands while its people are murdered in dribs and drabs?

Bear in mind I was responding to Mksheppard's idea of killing 5 % of 1.3 million people. Which is where the 65K people came from. Never did I say it is unethical for Israel to act self defense. But it is not right when self defense kills far from lives than it saves.

[Mr Bean]

Due to the violation of the IvP moratorium, this thread is hereby oppressed
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