Colonisation outside the galaxy?

[Illuminatus Primus]

In general response:

Why hasn't there been major programs made by factions or privately owned corporations outside the various central governments (Old Rep. GE. NE etc) to colonise other galaxies?
I doubt it can be because of lack of economic resources, they do have the technology to travel such far distances. Could it be because of lack of interests?

Not necessarily. They may have technological capacity but not the economic incentive. And the technological barriers may be heavy for common and available access throughout the galactic civilization. Think an analogue to Antarctic expeditions or space travel. Technologically feasible but economically unfavorable and generally seen only in government-sponsored, scientific missions (like the Outbound Flight Project).

And this galactic barrier, preventing the use of hyperspace travel outside the galaxy, is it null and void in recent canon?

Well if Outbound Flight was supposed to leave the galaxy, obviously its surmountable - assuming such a scientifically idiotic concept actually exists. We also know that the Rishi Maze is a satellite dwarf galaxy, yet Talon Karrde had a base there in the Thrawn Trilogy; and the Intergalactic Banking Clan had extragalactic banking vaults according to ROTS ICS (hence the name). Clearly this is not a real problem.

I could imagine the SW future in maybe a few thousand years SW galaxy influence might reach to other galaxies, just like Andromeda System's Commonwealth. I think it could have huge potential in story telling if done right.

I think the SW galactic civilization is essentially technologically and developmentally static, and better if it remains that way.

That doesnt make very much sense as that would not have a greater power generation capacity or energy density than what we have seen hypermatter to be capable of...

Black holes can convert mass directly to its energy-equivalent (total annihilation) just as hypermatter may be annihilated. The major difference being that the power output of Hawking black hole evaporation cannot be arbitrarily manipulated, but is a function of the characteristics of the black hole itself, which presents a definite drawback when compared with the apparent dial-an-output capability of SW hypermatter reactors. However, hypermatter is almost certainly not simply synthesized and not naturally occurring; however, any mass of any kind can serve as annihilation mass by dumping it into a black hole. The advantage of World Devestators is everything from silicate rock to gas giant atmospheres can feed their power demands. If some World Devestators can convert black hole annihilation output into hypermatter, they could even function as interim fuel plants for an attendant fleet.

If I recall correctly, in 4-LOM and Zuckuss' tale in Tales of the Bounty Hunters, Zuckuss hypothesizes that the rebels seek to escape the Galactic plane, in order to regroup their forces, and recover from the devastating defeat at Hoth. I'm not sure, but this seems to be the closest thing to extra-galactic colonization efforts.

He was referring to the retreat to Sullust, a star well above the galactic plane (which is why we see the galaxy from the operating room at the end of ESB).

That object is not the Star Wars galaxy, but rather, some sort of exotic object. It rotates way too fast visibly to be a galaxy or any other significant-scale cosmic object (nebulae, etc.). Its morphology is wrong for a spiral galaxy consistent with other depictions in the canon and astronomy.

Could one of the dwarf galaxies possibly be the Unknown Regions? That would do away with the nonsense about the Unknown Regions being part of the galaxy proper.

Given that the IBGC has colonized them, and it seems odd no one else would in 25,000 years of faster-than-light stardrive, I doubt it. The galactic halo is the best candidate.

No, the unkown regions are the northern half of the "eastern" edge of the galaxy proper according to the maps

The Unknown Regions cannot be part of the galactic disk and be reconcilable with the filmic canon (AOTC, ROTS, etc.) in a coherent way. It defies reason that the galactic civilization would be selectively be unable to colonize a particular clump of the galaxy to the exclusion of the rest. Not to mention the naive cartoon EU maps are very unrealistic and inconsistent with galactic morphology.

[(name here)]

actually, they can colonize it with ease, except they have yet to map it. why they haven't i don't know, but grand admiral thrawn was stuck out there for a while, the jade shadow pursued zomma selkot, the chiss have maps of some of it, and there is no mention of it being hard to reach.

[PainRack]

The original WEG description of the unknown regions was simply that they were unknown politically. Ships can go in and out, but nobody knows what's going on in there.

[Darth Ruinus]

I think the SW galactic civilization is essentially technologically and developmentally static, and better if it remains that way.

What do you mean by that, specifially, what to you mean by "better if it remains that way" ?

[Illuminatus Primus]

actually, they can colonize it with ease, except they have yet to map it. why they haven't i don't know,

That's a big deal, because nothing which causes civilization or contact to develop should be exist everywhere but a blob on the side of the galaxy. The distribution of useful energy and raw material resources, habitable planets, native cultures, and navigation hazards are distributed radially along an inverse proportion with respect to distance from the galactic core and latitudinally along an inverse proportion with respect to distance from the plane of galactic rotation. Basically, the good stuff is located in the center in the spiral (the bulge is relatively barren), and likewise the denser, the harder to navigate. Any distributive asymmetry which contributed to an asymmetrical distribution of cultural diffusion or exploration would also show up as structural asymmetry. It would not be a pretty spiral. Nor does the EU claim there is no cause; they idiotically state that a magic blob of dark matter has entered a region of the disk and prevents travel (except when the plot of the novels suddenly requires it) without distorting the galactic disk. This is imbecilic.

but grand admiral thrawn was stuck out there for a while, the jade shadow pursued zomma selkot, the chiss have maps of some of it, and there is no mention of it being hard to reach.

See above.

The original WEG description of the unknown regions was simply that they were unknown politically. Ships can go in and out, but nobody knows what's going on in there.

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as the cause for the Unknown Regions is disinterest or economic disincentive, as opposed to the drivel pushed by the post-ROTJ EU.

I think the SW galactic civilization is essentially technologically and developmentally static, and better if it remains that way.

What do you mean by that, specifially, what to you mean by "better if it remains that way" ?

The political form of the galaxy and its prime technologies have been consistent for 25,000 years. The economy's growth must be extremely sluggish, along with technological advancement, in order for the scale of population and so forth to be realistic by the film era. Furthermore, idiotic EU authors apparently find it impossible to realize a medium without 20th century technological progress indefinitely, and to encourage them to abuse such idiotic notions more extensively by positing fresh plots on the premise of technological advancement is bad. Not to mention that its simply not the theme of real STAR WARS, and the EU can be bad enough without encouraging the importation of endless gizmo-of-the-week Star Trek tropes ad nauseum.

[PainRack]

The political form of the galaxy and its prime technologies have been consistent for 25,000 years. The economy's growth must be extremely sluggish, along with technological advancement, in order for the scale of population and so forth to be realistic by the film era. Furthermore, idiotic EU authors apparently find it impossible to realize a medium without 20th century technological progress indefinitely, and to encourage them to abuse such idiotic notions more extensively by positing fresh plots on the premise of technological advancement is bad. Not to mention that its simply not the theme of real STAR WARS, and the EU can be bad enough without encouraging the importation of endless gizmo-of-the-week Star Trek tropes ad nauseum.

Why must stability in politics= sluggish economic growth? We have seen governments on Earth which has remained politically stable and enjoy huge economic growth at the same time.
A cyclic form of expansion and contraction would explain the undeveloped status of the Outer Rim and fit with the canon depiction of KOTOR as well as AOTC era, where refugees were flooding the spaceways. In a government which enjoys so little central power as the Old Republic, it may remain stable despite shocks in the sector level.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why must stability in politics= sluggish economic growth? We have seen governments on Earth which has remained politically stable and enjoy huge economic growth at the same time.

Not for tens of thousands of years. The culture will have had to have doubled in scale hundreds of times; modern-type capitalist economies are highly dynamic and transformational in the very short-term compared to the time frame we are discussing. They all grow exponentially. Not to mention this in the frame work of a mishmash of competing and zero-sum interacting (theoretically according to realism, anyway) sovereign states, as opposed the quasi-ecumenical galactic polity of STAR WARS.

A cyclic form of expansion and contraction would explain the undeveloped status of the Outer Rim and fit with the canon depiction of KOTOR as well as AOTC era, where refugees were flooding the spaceways. In a government which enjoys so little central power as the Old Republic, it may remain stable despite shocks in the sector level.

That is fine, but that doesn't make 20th century-esque technological and economic progress a good model for SW nor explain the idiotic cartoon map Unknown Regions. A boom-and-bust cyclical model is a net steady-state in the long term.

[Darth Ruinus]

I could be wrong but, doenst Obi-wan pull up a map of the Republic in Ep. II, and the main galaxy AND the smaller galaxies are shown?

[PainRack]

Not for tens of thousands of years. The culture will have had to have doubled in scale hundreds of times; modern-type capitalist economies are highly dynamic and transformational in the very short-term compared to the time frame we are discussing. They all grow exponentially. Not to mention this in the frame work of a mishmash of competing and zero-sum interacting (theoretically according to realism, anyway) sovereign states, as opposed the quasi-ecumenical galactic polity of STAR WARS.

That is fine, but that doesn't make 20th century-esque technological and economic progress a good model for SW nor explain the idiotic cartoon map Unknown Regions. A boom-and-bust cyclical model is a net steady-state in the long term.

Ok, stop inserting unwarranted assumptions. We already SEE a cycle of boom and bust. The Sith War that caused the modern incarnation of the Republic? Bust, then boom, until TPM, where the declining Republic exerted taxation on the outer trade routes. Resulting economic dislocation due to various politics and etc cause another series of bust.

You are simply stating that there must be sluggish economic growth, because modern day 20th century economic growth cause drastic political change. However, we can point to epochs of history where economic growth hasn't. Tied to the vagaries of resource extraction, wars, politics and trading influences, its possible to have planetary changes, or even sector wide shocks, insofar as it doesn't affect the Republic as a whole.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ok, stop inserting unwarranted assumptions. We already SEE a cycle of boom and bust. The Sith War that caused the modern incarnation of the Republic? Bust, then boom, until TPM, where the declining Republic exerted taxation on the outer trade routes. Resulting economic dislocation due to various politics and etc cause another series of bust.

Right, and cyclical models will produce generally net zero growth over extended periods of time. This is not a disproof of my point on a general developmental steady-state. This does not make a blob Unknown Regions in the disk credible, nor does it suggest a drastically more advance civilization a bit in the future as another poster suggested,

You are simply stating that there must be sluggish economic growth, because modern day 20th century economic growth cause drastic political change. However, we can point to epochs of history where economic growth hasn't.

Such as? Why don't you try naming your examples and fleshing your arguments, rather than informing me of their alleged existence and expecting me to take your word for it?

Tied to the vagaries of resource extraction, wars, politics and trading influences, its possible to have planetary changes, or even sector wide shocks, insofar as it doesn't affect the Republic as a whole.

This is like saying a nation-state can have a generally static development and net zero growth while individual towns and regions grow and shrink. Obviously this is the case; but this does not pertain to our discussion of generalized and holistic growth and economic/technological advancement in the case of the entire civilization. I am saying the scale and political state of the galaxy, combined with its technological progress, suggest net zero or net very low growth over the duration of the hyperdrive era; pointing out that regions can undergo busts and booms and radical change does not disprove what I am talking about at all.

In fact, I agree. The idea that the galaxy far, far away and the Galactic Republican civilization generally (as opposed to the thousand-year, Ruusan Reformation Republic regime specifically) must be uniformly static is ludicrous. There must be sector-by-sector and cyclical exchanges, busts and booms, and depression and recovery. Still, the net growth and development must be negligible in order for the scale of civilization to not double and be transformative such as industrial and post-industrial society as we have observed.

Much more adept discussion of the fundamental issues is available on the thorough and always impressive Dr. Saxton's Technical Commentaries, both regarding equilibrium economy and development and technological stasis.

[Darth Ruinus]

In fact, I agree. The idea that the galaxy far, far away and the Galactic Republican civilization generally (as opposed to the thousand-year, Ruusan Reformation Republic regime specifically) must be uniformly static is ludicrous. There must be sector-by-sector and cyclical exchanges, busts and booms, and depression and recovery. Still, the net growth and development must be negligible in order for the scale of civilization to not double and be transformative such as industrial and post-industrial society as we have observed.

So this is what you meant when you said you prefered "SW to stay that way" a while ago?

Basically, you are saying that because we have not seen any technological progress or any real growth on any noticeable scale (hyperdrive just getting faster every year, and droids getting smarter every year, but no real "breakthrough") in SW, then it would be qutie safe to assume that SW in the future will be quite the same, and not largely persuing any more extragalactic conquest (other than what seems to have alread occured?)

Is this right or am I way fucking off? (Seriously, I am trying to make sense of this discussion, and I think I got it?)

[Illuminatus Primus]

So this is what you meant when you said you prefered "SW to stay that way" a while ago?

SW is space opera: its fantasy in a hyperreal, super-advanced societal setting; technical improvements and technological widgets are not fitting foundations for stories which are trying to be real STAR WARS. Its like having a crime drama like Law and Order set in the Star Trek universe and calling it really expanding the story.

Basically, you are saying that because we have not seen any technological progress or any real growth on any noticeable scale (hyperdrive just getting faster every year, and droids getting smarter every year, but no real "breakthrough") in SW,

Droids and hyperdrive have done the same things in the same packages throughout the whole story. Same-day hyperdrive transit has been around since the Daragons and the Great Hyperspace War; look how similar HK-47 of KotOR fame is compared to filmic droids. Things have been the same for a long time.

then it would be qutie safe to assume that SW in the future will be quite the same, and not largely persuing any more extragalactic conquest (other than what seems to have alread occured?)

Is this right or am I way fucking off? (Seriously, I am trying to make sense of this discussion, and I think I got it?)

Basically you're right. I suggest you read Dr. Saxton's words on the matter to grasp it more eloquently than I could articulate.

[Darth Hoth]

On a related note, for how long has the Republic been stagnant in terms of territory controlled? I seem to recall some timeline that explained how the early, expansionist Republic eventually came to dominate the galaxy by moving outwards from the Core. At what point were the outer regions settled? Some places, such as Wild Space if I remember correctly, were discovered too late to be formally annexed into the Empire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

On a related note, for how long has the Republic been stagnant in terms of territory controlled? I seem to recall some timeline that explained how the early, expansionist Republic eventually came to dominate the galaxy by moving outwards from the Core. At what point were the outer regions settled? Some places, such as Wild Space if I remember correctly, were discovered too late to be formally annexed into the Empire.

The idea that the Republic took over ten thousand years merely to explore and colonize the entire galactic disk is imbecilic. Growing societies expand exponentially and limited to relativistic velocities their expansion would already have explored and developed the entire galaxy, given that mature spaceflight existed for hundreds of thousands of years prior to the invention of modern hyperdrive (we know this is in fact true given that Csilia, the Chiss homeworld, was settled by a lost human sleeper ship, and that Chiss are derived humans). We know large region-scale empires (Xim's Rim empire, the Hutts' empire) were possible in the eve of the modern era which places distinct limits on how slow primitive hyperdrives could possibly be (stable polities require same-year travel from frontier to frontier). And that is the far lower limit, the speed could easily be much higher.

The longevity of this continuous government suggests that the galaxy was unified at least nominally early in its life and that the Republic has been in a cyclical or steady-state existence since its inception. Most of the EU describing the early Republic lacks such credibility as to probably be ignored. The comics depicting the Great Hyperspace War and Jedi vs. Sith are so anachronistic and hamfisted in their claims and assertions that it is impossible to accept them at face-value.

Wild Space was "opened" to development by Palpatine's regime. There are reasons why a developmentally plateaued civilization would have bouts of development and exploration; Wild Space could be regions which had been abandoned due to cartographic calamity, astrophysical hazards or natural disasters, environmental conservation, and economic cycles or changing incentives. Wild Space, like the Unknown Regions, may be more a category to which minor regions and sectors are assigned; perhaps Wild Space refers to space which is currently abandoned or undeveloped for any of the above reasons but priorly had enjoyed development and integration, whereas Unknown Regions reflect space which has essentially avoided development and remained outside the galactic community for the entirety of history.

Dr. Saxton's development section of his article on the STAR WARS galaxy is particularly helpful in understanding the underlying dynamics.

[PainRack]

Right, and cyclical models will produce generally net zero growth over extended periods of time. This is not a disproof of my point on a general developmental steady-state. This does not make a blob Unknown Regions in the disk credible, nor does it suggest a drastically more advance civilization a bit in the future as another poster suggested,

For god sake IP, you're still the same. Your entire purpose in these debates is for the sake of finding an opponent and bashing him in, bringing in home the kill, as opposed to a simple discussion and exchange of opinions and facts.

I'm NOT discussing an Unknown Regions in Northeast galaxy. I'm NOT suggesting a more advanced SW civilisation in the future. I'm merely asking why do you feel that the SWU must enjoy sluggish economic growth?

Such as? Why don't you try naming your examples and fleshing your arguments, rather than informing me of their alleged existence and expecting me to take your word for it?

Tang Dynasty, after the opening of the Grand Canal. The state of Wu after Sun Wu built the canal linking the Yellow River. Vatican city during the Middle Ages. All three states were politically stable and did not undergo drastic political changes as a result of economic growth.

I am saying the scale and political state of the galaxy, combined with its technological progress, suggest net zero or net very low growth over the duration of the hyperdrive era; pointing out that regions can undergo busts and booms and radical change does not disprove what I am talking about at all.

You stated that the SWU has sluggish economic growth, I asked why? Perhaps its a communication problem here but when you use the word sluggish growth, I'm assuming you mean a sluggish economy period, this as opposed to an economy which has highs and lows, but has little net gain over the years.

[Darth Hoth]

The idea that the Republic took over ten thousand years merely to explore and colonize the entire galactic disk is imbecilic. Growing societies expand exponentially and limited to relativistic velocities their expansion would already have explored and developed the entire galaxy, given that mature spaceflight existed for hundreds of thousands of years prior to the invention of modern hyperdrive (we know this is in fact true given that Csilia, the Chiss homeworld, was settled by a lost human sleeper ship, and that Chiss are derived humans). We know large region-scale empires (Xim's Rim empire, the Hutts' empire) were possible in the eve of the modern era which places distinct limits on how slow primitive hyperdrives could possibly be (stable polities require same-year travel from frontier to frontier). And that is the far lower limit, the speed could easily be much higher.

The longevity of this continuous government suggests that the galaxy was unified at least nominally early in its life and that the Republic has been in a cyclical or steady-state existence since its inception.

The Republic's character appears to vary over time, its power waxing and waning. At certain points, it appears almost a unitary state capable of concerted military action, while at other times it more closely resembles our world's UN. The government may not be as stable as supposed; it nearly collapsed during the Dark Ages, for example, shrinking back to its original Core holdings. At other points there have been massive reforms. And with a government more accurately described as a very loose confederation, how does its continued existence preclude economic advancements?

Most of the EU describing the early Republic lacks such credibility as to probably be ignored. The comics depicting the Great Hyperspace War and Jedi vs. Sith are so anachronistic and hamfisted in their claims and assertions that it is impossible to accept them at face-value.

I always preferred to think that Jedi vs. Sith was simply depicting a Jedi force trapped on a blockaded and hostile world and forced to make do with what resources they had, to the point of using very primitive weapons. Unfortunately, there is no such explanation for the Great Hyperspace War, which you very accurately described as a "retardfest" when last we discussed. Seeing how ill it fits together with not only Dark Lords of the Sith, but also the much more advanced society in its own prequel (The Golden Age of the Sith #0), it may probably be best to simply disregard it.

Wild Space was "opened" to development by Palpatine's regime. There are reasons why a developmentally plateaued civilization would have bouts of development and exploration; Wild Space could be regions which had been abandoned due to cartographic calamity, astrophysical hazards or natural disasters, environmental conservation, and economic cycles or changing incentives. Wild Space, like the Unknown Regions, may be more a category to which minor regions and sectors are assigned; perhaps Wild Space refers to space which is currently abandoned or undeveloped for any of the above reasons but priorly had enjoyed development and integration, whereas Unknown Regions reflect space which has essentially avoided development and remained outside the galactic community for the entirety of history.

Dr. Saxton's development section of his article on the STAR WARS galaxy is particularly helpful in understanding the underlying dynamics.

I will check Saxton's site, then.

[Darth Ruinus]

Painrack, I think I have an idea why the SW world would have slow economic growth.

Well, as far as I know, you have economic growth when you either gain more territory, some new industry or something comes along, or some new political thing (trade, taxation) whatever.

Well, how could this occur in SW though? I dont remember any new companies popping up (it seems as though most companies are several millenia old) and the technology in SW is pretty much, well, I guess its at its highest it can go. I know some companies fail and go bankrupt or get bought out, but all that does is make the larger companies bigger and more powerful (Czerka had its own private armes, and the CIS' armies were mainly funded and manned by companeis IIRC) There really is no way for a new company to try to pop up in there, and if it does, it can probably quickly find itself in competition against companies which it cant win.

The companies dont really have an option of who to sell to either, all they had was the GR or the GE. Any other political entity was way to small, and there wouldnt be any money in them.

They have had ships that can slag planets for (again) several millenia, and have had same day intergalactic travel for just as long. Droids, medical tech, computers, all that shit is also just as old. There really seems to be no good way to make any NEW type of product. What really is there new for them to do? Any new technolog seemed to be upgrades of older tech. And anythign really new, the (Sun Crusher, Death Stars, Hypermatter?) are all products that only seem to have military application, with the exception of Hypermatter.

And as for growth, well, I dont know much about the history of the SW galaxy to comment on that.

(I think this is right, I barely got into Economics class so I am probably wrong.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

PainRack:

Right, and cyclical models will produce generally net zero growth over extended periods of time. This is not a disproof of my point on a general developmental steady-state. This does not make a blob Unknown Regions in the disk credible, nor does it suggest a drastically more advance civilization a bit in the future as another poster suggested,

For god sake IP, you're still the same. Your entire purpose in these debates is for the sake of finding an opponent and bashing him in, bringing in home the kill, as opposed to a simple discussion and exchange of opinions and facts.

Really, I'm did not insult you...nor did I misrepresent you...nor did I attack you personally, nor did I stray from the issue at hand, etc. Maybe you need to tone down the victim complex. I think it is valid to ask what the net difference is between a cyclical economy and a steady-state one? If the former oscillates from a constant value, the net effect is the same. And as I said, your examples are poor compared to what we are discussing. Dr. Saxton and others have laid out why a 25,000 year industrial growing economy (akin to the modern world) is highly unworkable.

I'm NOT discussing an Unknown Regions in Northeast galaxy. I'm NOT suggesting a more advanced SW civilisation in the future. I'm merely asking why do you feel that the SWU must enjoy sluggish economic growth?

Because growing societies expand exponentially, and the galaxy has been settled/developed at roughly the same density considering the time span for expansion given (several hundred thousand years at relativistic velocity, twenty-five thousand at high supralight velocity).

Tang Dynasty, after the opening of the Grand Canal. The state of Wu after Sun Wu built the canal linking the Yellow River. Vatican city during the Middle Ages. All three states were politically stable and did not undergo drastic political changes as a result of economic growth.

Preindustrial economic growth is not comparable to the system we are analyzing. How fast was that growth relatively speaking? And still, Middle Age-era growth is very fast to not produce immensely observable expansion in a duration comparable to the time anatomically modern humans have existed.

Not to mention political stability in spite of economic growth in the span of hundreds of years is comparable to stability of institutions for tens of thousands of years since when?

You stated that the SWU has sluggish economic growth, I asked why? Perhaps its a communication problem here but when you use the word sluggish growth, I'm assuming you mean a sluggish economy period, this as opposed to an economy which has highs and lows, but has little net gain over the years.

By sluggish I mean nearly zero; as Dr. Saxton elaborates at length, the net growth over the duration of the Republic should average very close to zero. I will not rule out that very slow incremental social and scientific improvements has had some accumulative effect, but is seems clear the society in question is much more a steady-state or cyclical (with a stable mean GDP) economy than one which grows in any way comparable to modern industrial nation-states; which grow exponentially and transformatively in periods of time which are but brief gasps to the SW civilization.

By any standard of modern academic economics, the rate of net growth we are talking about is extremely sluggish if any at all.

Darth Hoth:

The Republic's character appears to vary over time, its power waxing and waning. At certain points, it appears almost a unitary state capable of concerted military action, while at other times it more closely resembles our world's UN. The government may not be as stable as supposed; it nearly collapsed during the Dark Ages, for example, shrinking back to its original Core holdings. At other points there have been massive reforms. And with a government more accurately described as a very loose confederation, how does its continued existence preclude economic advancements?

The idea that because it is "merely" confederal or loose, or periodically had to undergo crises or reforms somehow excuses a twenty-five thousand year longevity for a single polity is silly. This is comparable to the entire duration of the existence of anatomically modern humans. The longest continuously functioning bureaucracy is the Roman Catholic Church and its much younger (less than two thousand years) and never had to sustain political primacy for much of its duration. This is an unimaginably long period of time by even our historical measurements; this is over five times the time past since Dynastic Egypt. The rate of economic growth in the GFFA relative to the duration of the oldest, most stable states in human history (i.e., take the average rate of growth for the oldest state and divide it by the factor of its longevity to 25,000 years) is at most hundreds of times less than the rate of growth in the modern globalized industrial economy, and the most realistic model is probably some post-industrial steady-state economy.

Furthermore, you seem to be naive about how fast modern economies grow; they expand exponentially, and double within the span of a century ieasily. This cannot continue in a closed system endlessly, and would not have produced a relatively sparsely developed civilization (compared, to say, a Type III Kardashev civilization. Examining the Kardashev scale shows that our terrestrial civilization has expanded its continuous energy requirements by over a factor of two in the last forty years. This is due to the fact that productive economic activity demands more energy as it expands; given that some Type II civilizations existed hundreds of thousands of years before ANH, they must have entered some sort of equilibrium or steady-state situation or the galactic civilization's energy requirements and GDP would have doubled hundreds and hundreds of times and exceeded the scale of development consistent with the filmic Star Wars civilization.

Most of the EU describing the early Republic lacks such credibility as to probably be ignored. The comics depicting the Great Hyperspace War and Jedi vs. Sith are so anachronistic and hamfisted in their claims and assertions that it is impossible to accept them at face-value.

I always preferred to think that Jedi vs. Sith was simply depicting a Jedi force trapped on a blockaded and hostile world and forced to make do with what resources they had, to the point of using very primitive weapons.

Nineteenth century metallurgical principles would render the primitive technology used obsolescent, and I don't see any reason why Ruusan would be deprived even that level of development. Even if the Jedi are blockaded, that does not explain the Sith's primitivism either. There is no intelligent or coherent way to incorporate it at face value into the greater continuity.

Unfortunately, there is no such explanation for the Great Hyperspace War, which you very accurately described as a "retardfest" when last we discussed. Seeing how ill it fits together with not only Dark Lords of the Sith, but also the much more advanced society in its own prequel (The Golden Age of the Sith #0), it may probably be best to simply disregard it.

Right.

[Darth Hoth]

The idea that because it is "merely" confederal or loose, or periodically had to undergo crises or reforms somehow excuses a twenty-five thousand year longevity for a single polity is silly. This is comparable to the entire duration of the existence of anatomically modern humans. The longest continuously functioning bureaucracy is the Roman Catholic Church and its much younger (less than two thousand years) and never had to sustain political primacy for much of its duration. This is an unimaginably long period of time by even our historical measurements; this is over five times the time past since Dynastic Egypt. The rate of economic growth in the GFFA relative to the duration of the oldest, most stable states in human history (i.e., take the average rate of growth for the oldest state and divide it by the factor of its longevity to 25,000 years) is at most hundreds of times less than the rate of growth in the modern globalized industrial economy, and the most realistic model is probably some post-industrial steady-state economy.

With the very loose authority it commanded, at least at certain points in its history, I would say it is rather doubtful if the Republic meaningfully governed more than small fractions of the Galaxy for much of its history. As depicted in the Expanded Universe, it appears to be a confederation in which membership is mostly a formality, in terms of our history approximately a somewhat strange hybrid of the Holy Roman Empire and the UN. Furthermore, a factor in its longevity may very well be its lack of competition; apart from the periodical Sith-sponsored wars/conspiracies, during which the Republic noticeably improved and streamlined its organisation, creating united militaries et cetera, it faced very few challenges. This makes its situation uncomparable to any polity in real life history, since in our world countries and empires have always competed for limited resources. A galactic government without significant rivals (as opposed to backward enclaves) would have little incentive for technological innovation, and a reactionary elite could hold back social development.

Nineteenth century metallurgical principles would render the primitive technology used obsolescent, and I don't see any reason why Ruusan would be deprived even that level of development. Even if the Jedi are blockaded, that does not explain the Sith's primitivism either. There is no intelligent or coherent way to incorporate it at face value into the greater continuity.

Ruusan appears to be a feral world without infrastructure or an indigenous population. Jedi stranded there may perhaps have to make do with what they can manufacture with their own two hands. The Sith may be short on material as well, or are perhaps utilising mercenaries from low-technology societies, forces that they deem to be enough for a battle under such conditions. I will, however, admit that any explanation would necessarily have to be rather contrived.

Unfortunately, there is no such explanation for the Great Hyperspace War, which you very accurately described as a "retardfest" when last we discussed. Seeing how ill it fits together with not only Dark Lords of the Sith, but also the much more advanced society in its own prequel (The Golden Age of the Sith #0), it may probably be best to simply disregard it.

Right.

Indeed.

[Illuminatus Primus]

With the very loose authority it commanded, at least at certain points in its history, I would say it is rather doubtful if the Republic meaningfully governed more than small fractions of the Galaxy for much of its history.

It was the dominant political entity one way or another, and was largely able to suppress any centrifugal political tendencies, and force peaceful resolution to any competing social and societal interests for the most part. This is, one way or another, significant political stability for a 25,000 year period. If the Republic did not regulate and manage the galactic community, one wonders what the significance of "for a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic" really means then. They were knights errant for a tiny corner of the galaxy? Furthermore, extrapolation from the late era to the entire duration of the Republic is misleading; the tendencies observed at the end of the Republic were its failings that led to its decline, presuming them to be the natural course of affairs is disingenuous.

As depicted in the Expanded Universe, it appears to be a confederation in which membership is mostly a formality, in terms of our history approximately a somewhat strange hybrid of the Holy Roman Empire and the UN. Furthermore, a factor in its longevity may very well be its lack of competition; apart from the periodical Sith-sponsored wars/conspiracies, during which the Republic noticeably improved and streamlined its organisation, creating united militaries et cetera, it faced very few challenges. This makes its situation uncomparable to any polity in real life history, since in our world countries and empires have always competed for limited resources. A galactic government without significant rivals (as opposed to backward enclaves) would have little incentive for technological innovation, and a reactionary elite could hold back social development.

This might hold water if the Republic resembled feudal Europe, or dynastic China at various periods. Unfortunately for you, it does not - the galaxy is an industrialized capitalist economy. As such it will at the very least endure pressure for exponential growth by competing firms in a marketplace. Furthermore, the Republic's lack of competitors speaks to its strength and further to the incredible longevity and stability it enjoyed: the Republic absorbed or dismantled competition and prevented any competition from later forming.

States expand or die; that the Republic was somehow a tiny boom-and-bust state for most of its 25,000 years and lasted that entire length without being conquered and without anyone else setting up competition despite having no influence over most of the galaxy is much less credible than that the Republic having unified most of the galactic community early in its lifetime and then settled down into a quasi-steady-state, equilibrium economy. Think something like Ancient China in terms of reaching its natural limits and sustainably accessing resources by the technology available, but instead a (pseudo-)capitalist economy - in many ways the dream of sustainability advocates.

Ruusan appears to be a feral world without infrastructure or an indigenous population. Jedi stranded there may perhaps have to make do with what they can manufacture with their own two hands.

Give me a break; they got there on starships. You're telling me they can camp out, keep their lightsabers in working order, but cannot set up pre-industrial ironsmithing? They have lightsabers and got there by starship but have no infrastructure or access thereof? This is absurd.

Furthermore, this simply underscores my point that Jedi vs. Sith cannot be taken to show the galaxy has meaningfully advanced; you yourself are making excuses to preserve the pretense of an advanced civilization "off-screen".

The Sith may be short on material as well, or are perhaps utilising mercenaries from low-technology societies, forces that they deem to be enough for a battle under such conditions. I will, however, admit that any explanation would necessarily have to be rather contrived.

Someone has to be keeping the "stranded" there, and whoever that is has access to off-world resources and infrastructure. Take it as the in-universe equivalent of fanciful steampunk fiction.

[Darth Hoth]

It was the dominant political entity one way or another, and was largely able to suppress any centrifugal political tendencies, and force peaceful resolution to any competing social and societal interests for the most part. This is, one way or another, significant political stability for a 25,000 year period. If the Republic did not regulate and manage the galactic community, one wonders what the significance of "for a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic" really means then. They were knights errant for a tiny corner of the galaxy? Furthermore, extrapolation from the late era to the entire duration of the Republic is misleading; the tendencies observed at the end of the Republic were its failings that led to its decline, presuming them to be the natural course of affairs is disingenuous.

No, but there are other periods of weakness in the Republic's history; the Great Sith War comes to mind, when a single star system can apparently challenge the entire galactic military. Other such times would be during/after Revan's Old Sith Wars - we have Kreia's prophecy that the Republic would slowly decline and die over the millennia - and the Republic Dark Age. This encompasses at least four thousand of the Republic's 25,000-odd years of history, which should be a significant portion, and is the only one we have data to judge reliably on. (Like you, I disregard the details of the Great Hyperspace War as serious evidence.)

In any case, authority appears to be rather loose, and with the relatively low numbers of Jedi posited by films and Expanded Universe alike, they can hardly have had much of an impact on everyday life; they may have decided wars and politics, but few ordinary citizens would ever have met a Jedi in person. Their peacekeeping would rather refer to their military capacity.

This might hold water if the Republic resembled feudal Europe, or dynastic China at various periods. Unfortunately for you, it does not - the galaxy is an industrialized capitalist economy. As such it will at the very least endure pressure for exponential growth by competing firms in a marketplace. Furthermore, the Republic's lack of competitors speaks to its strength and further to the incredible longevity and stability it enjoyed: the Republic absorbed or dismantled competition and prevented any competition from later forming.

The Republic controlled the Core, the galaxy's crucial regions. Most interstellar travel capacity was based there into the post-Palpatine era; with technology spreading relatively slowly outwards and hyperspace travel requiring costly and dangerous mapping of reliable routes, which would then have to be re-mapped every so often, it is not impossible that outwards growth was relatively slow, especially if the original region was rich. Even an Inner Rim world such as Onderon only had very tenacious contact with their neighbours as late as the Exar Kun era. It appears it was only after the Old Sith Wars that the Republic entered its circle of stagnation-decline-resurgence.

States expand or die; that the Republic was somehow a tiny boom-and-bust state for most of its 25,000 years and lasted that entire length without being conquered and without anyone else setting up competition despite having no influence over most of the galaxy is much less credible than that the Republic having unified most of the galactic community early in its lifetime and then settled down into a quasi-steady-state, equilibrium economy. Think something like Ancient China in terms of reaching its natural limits and sustainably accessing resources by the technology available, but instead a (pseudo-)capitalist economy - in many ways the dream of sustainability advocates.

Ancient China did not work. The population growth proceeded beyond the resources available within the stagnant empire, despite occasional minor improvements in farming techniques et cetera, leading to an ever-increasing decline in living standards. In its last centuries, this was the reason for much popular discontent; one bad harvest was more or less enough to cause famine.

For the Republic, while I do agree that technological development appears to have stagnated after the Old Sith Wars, possibly with later periods of brief but intense innovation, the evidence that economy did so as well is less clear.

Give me a break; they got there on starships. You're telling me they can camp out, keep their lightsabers in working order, but cannot set up pre-industrial ironsmithing? They have lightsabers and got there by starship but have no infrastructure or access thereof? This is absurd.

Posit that airborne troops were landed in the deepest jungles of Africa. They have ARs, GPS, Tamagotchis, and were transported there by airlift. Does this mean that there is infrastructure ready for them to use in this previously unsettled area, or that they are able to construct pre-industrial metal workshops there? In my humble opinion, they would be in trouble if attacked by an enemy that has air supremacy.

Furthermore, this simply underscores my point that Jedi vs. Sith cannot be taken to show the galaxy has meaningfully advanced; you yourself are making excuses to preserve the pretense of an advanced civilization "off-screen".

Have I claimed that they were on that level of technological development at that point? It was you who brought up the comic; I merely offered a way to rationalise it. It was never part of my main argument (which was also never about technology, but societal/economical development).

Someone has to be keeping the "stranded" there, and whoever that is has access to off-world resources and infrastructure. Take it as the in-universe equivalent of fanciful steampunk fiction.

On the whole, Sith technology on Ruusan appears superior to that of the Jedi: swoop bikes, fighters, Kaan's presumed air force, the fleet that maintains the blockade et cetera. However, I do agree that it is hard to explain the ground troops' lack of weapons and tactics of reasonably modern grade. The primitive mercenaries theory is probably the best I can produce. Of course, there is also the possibility that the comic cannot be taken at face value.

[PainRack]

Really, I'm did not insult you...nor did I misrepresent you...nor did I attack you personally, nor did I stray from the issue at hand, etc. Maybe you need to tone down the victim complex.

I pointing out that you're doing the exact same thing over the ISD issue AFTER ICS.
Introducing additional topics, painting your opponent as an adversary and then modeling your ENTIRE post around that basis.

Or have you finally noticed that I'm NOT talking about an Unknown Region in NorthEast galaxy,comprising 1/3 of the galaxy? You're simply painting additional issues and topics on top of my discussion, and to make it even more annoying, its topics I have already clarified I agree on, if not in my post history, in this very thread.

It gets even more annoying since I have NEVER argued that the Unknown Region comprise 1/3 of the Galaxy, or is a huge region in the galactic disc, or that the SW civilisation has rapid technological advances over the years.

I'm merely pointing out that
1. We have seen political changes occuring in the Republic on the local level, with galactic changes occuring every century or thousand years or so.
2. Why do you state that the Republic must have sluggish economic growth?

I think it is valid to ask what the net difference is between a cyclical economy and a steady-state one? If the former oscillates from a constant value, the net effect is the same. And as I said, your examples are poor compared to what we are discussing. Dr. Saxton and others have laid out why a 25,000 year industrial growing economy (akin to the modern world) is highly unworkable.

And guess what? I'm not speculating that the Republic has an industrial economy comparable to modern times.

Because growing societies expand exponentially, and the galaxy has been settled/developed at roughly the same density considering the time span for expansion given (several hundred thousand years at relativistic velocity, twenty-five thousand at high supralight velocity).

And the Republic territory has both expanded and contracted over the years due to the vagaries of war, politics and trade collapse. We see the constant formation of new settlements and colonies in the Old Republic, New Republic and Empire era. Similarly, we seen contractions in the Republic territory during the Sith Wars, Galactic Civil wars, Clone wars and etc. We seen economic dislocation happening amidst the backdrop of the Clone Wars and at the end of TPM, with the EU suggesting this was due to the central Republic government battles with powerful corporations.

Preindustrial economic growth is not comparable to the system we are analyzing. How fast was that growth relatively speaking? And still, Middle Age-era growth is very fast to not produce immensely observable expansion in a duration comparable to the time anatomically modern humans have existed.

Not to mention political stability in spite of economic growth in the span of hundreds of years is comparable to stability of institutions for tens of thousands of years since when?

Except that the same forces at play then may very well be present in the Republic. The Republic prized itself on having a craftmanship type economy in ITW TPM. Its very clear that despite having the technology to do so, the Republic does not practise assembly line production, with all the attendant social, economic and cultural changes that entails. This makes it even more stunning that the Republic can sustain multiple city-worlds.

AOTC and LOE also introduces us to a sector of Coruscant which has undergone an economic depression, becoming a rust town.

What this suggests is that the Republic may very well comprise of single worlds constantly advancing and increasing in wealth, setting up new colonies and settlements to acquire greater resources, and then falling as they overextended, colonies fail or require greater economic support and etc. The Core Worlds were settled cities with a large network of resource producers, and dependent worlds could had been abandoned as easily mined/acquired resources are tapped out and economic forces cause them to either fail or become ghost towns.

By sluggish I mean nearly zero; as Dr. Saxton elaborates at length, the net growth over the duration of the Republic should average very close to zero. I will not rule out that very slow incremental social and scientific improvements has had some accumulative effect, but is seems clear the society in question is much more a steady-state or cyclical (with a stable mean GDP) economy than one which grows in any way comparable to modern industrial nation-states; which grow exponentially and transformatively in periods of time which are but brief gasps to the SW civilization.

I see. As I elaborated, we're not contending that the SW civilisation has relatively little net growth over the few years, or rather, little per capita growth. Concentration of wealth must had been extremely slow or difficult to acquire, and corrections such as the Trade Federation fracas not of earth-shaking proportion in earlier years.
Frankly, there has never been periods of relatively stagnant economic growth in human civilisations. Droughts, changes in the tides and other environmental forces had all combined to cause boom or bust years. Papau New Guinea has relatively stagnant technological growth. Population growth has blossomed to the current resource level which are dictated by environmental and political conditions. Resources yielding territories could very well be abandoned due to the inability of its home territory being unable to support them, causing a loss of markets. The vast dispersal of human settlements, and indeed, human derived species such as the Chiss suggest that this exact pattern of human colonisation and abandonment has occurred in the Republic history. Or at least, human history. The Galaxy isn't empty. Its is full, uncharted human settlements, non aligned political powers, criminal or outgroups, expanding and contracting due to unknown factors.

And this ignores the existence of extant political powers. The Republic was strong enough that it couldn't fall, but expansion and contraction could have easily occured due to the flux in relationship between them. World A could very easily have switched between the Republic sphere of influence or alignment to other powers, with expansion and contraction due to local flux in conditions causing economic changes.

What is necessary is that local changes aren't significant enough to affect the galaxy as a whole.

[Cykeisme]

Yeah, the IGBC already had assets in those dwarf galaxies nearby. And it seems people can travel to that galaxy (maybe the other one too?) if they wanted. Someone here mentioned it above.

I would assume that they do indeed travel to that other dwarf galaxy; its very inclusion in the Jedi Archives' galactic map would indicate that folks do go there.

[Cykeisme]

Its very clear that despite having the technology to do so, the Republic does not practise assembly line production..

Wait, what?

[Havok]

Its very clear that despite having the technology to do so, the Republic does not practise assembly line production..

Wait, what?

Considering we SEE assembly line production on Geonosis, by the CIS, which were seceding from the GR, and to think that the galaxies demands can be kept up with by, what, hand assembled items? Really? C'mon.