SW vs B5 boarding action

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-21 03:52pm

An Imperial Star Destroyer has orders to take Babylon 5 as intact as possible (don't ask why... it's not important).

How long will it take for Imperial forces to overwhelm B5's defenses and secure the station?

No, I'm not silly enough to think that B5 actually has a chance of repelling this invasion.

No, the B5 defenders cannot destroy the station to prevent its capture.

I suppose you can have Sheridan ask for help from Draal and the Great Machine, but at least include your opinion of how well the station would hold out without his help. Then state how much of a difference you think Draal's help would make.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 04:03pm

A Star Destroyer can basically ignore the weapons of B5 itself because of the sheer strength of its shields (unless the captain dies from laughter when Ivanova warns him about the "200 megawatt pulse cannon"), so it can methodically cruise around the station picking off its defense guns one at a time.

Same goes for the fighters; they can't hurt an ISD, and it can either pick them off slowly with its point-defense guns or launch fighters. So the ISD, unlike President Clark's forces, would be able to render B5 completely toothless without having to board it during combat.

This changes the whole complexion of the situation; at this point, the ISD commander can simply order the B5 crew to surrender or forfeit their lives and the lives of every civilian living on the station, and they would have little choice but to surrender. The boarding action would take place without incident, as they simply move in and assume control without contest.

Alex Moon · Post by **Alex Moon** » 2003-01-21 04:07pm

B5 gets spanked hard. Imps can bring enough troops to bear to overwhelm the defenders in multiple areas. Once they're inside the station, Imperial troops find the nearest computer system to hook a couple of slicer droids up to and work to take control of the power grid and turbolifts, etc. After that they can cut off and isolate any remaining defenders and clean them up at will. I say 5-15 hours to completely take B5.

Draal isn't likely to have much of an impact, considering that they moment he gets involved he'll get the bad end of a turbolaser barrage.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-21 04:54pm

Darth Wong wrote: A Star Destroyer can basically ignore the weapons of B5 itself because of the sheer strength of its shields (unless the captain dies from laughter when Ivanova warns him about the "200 megawatt pulse cannon"), so it can methodically cruise around the station picking off its defense guns one at a time.

Same goes for the fighters; they can't hurt an ISD, and it can either pick them off slowly with its point-defense guns or launch fighters. So the ISD, unlike President Clark's forces, would be able to render B5 completely toothless without having to board it during combat.

All this is expected. I'd actually considered stating unequivocally that B5's weapon systems were already down just to avoid these preliminaries.

Darth Wong wrote: This changes the whole complexion of the situation; at this point, the ISD commander can simply order the B5 crew to surrender or forfeit their lives and the lives of every civilian living on the station, and they would have little choice but to surrender. The boarding action would take place without incident, as they simply move in and assume control without contest.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to allow the old "threaten to destroy them if the don't surrender" ploy to work this time. Assume that the defenders know that the Imperial commander has strict orders not to seriously damage the station or randomly slaughter its civilians.

The point here is to demonstrate just how well (or how poorly) B5's security forces would perform against a Stormtrooper boarding action.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-21 05:26pm

Stormie armour>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PPG

I don't really see what the B5 security guards could do against Stormtroopers.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-21 05:45pm

Sir Sirius wrote:Stormie armour>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PPG

I don't really see what the B5 security guards could do against Stormtroopers.

Hope they get into HTH? Stormtrooper armor is going to be a real problem for B5's security forces, since PPGs are designed to have low penetration.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-21 05:54pm

Sir Sirius wrote: I don't really see what the B5 security guards could do against Stormtroopers.

I suppose they could try piling a whole lot of fire into Stormtroopers at a choke point. PPGs can blow down bulkhead doors pretty quickly if you get enough of them firing together.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 05:55pm

I think they would be shocked at the sheer destructiveness of Imperial weapons. When the stormies start opening up with their blasters and taking pieces out of the wall, this is going to be a new experience for the B5 security forces. Their day won't improve when they discover that their PPG's won't take down the stormies unless you score a hit on a flexible joint.

Most of the troops also use naked-eye sighting IIRC, so the smoke (which they're also unfamiliar with in typical B5 shipboard combat) would quickly obscure their firing accuracy while the stormies can switch to thermal.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-21 06:13pm

Darth Wong wrote:I think they would be shocked at the sheer destructiveness of Imperial weapons. When the stormies start opening up with their blasters and taking pieces out of the wall, this is going to be a new experience for the B5 security forces. Their day won't improve when they discover that their PPG's won't take down the stormies unless you score a hit on a flexible joint.

Most of the troops also use naked-eye sighting IIRC, so the smoke (which they're also unfamiliar with in typical B5 shipboard combat) would quickly obscure their firing accuracy while the stormies can switch to thermal.

Well, at least the defenders have their own gas masks, so they won't necessarily drop from smoke inhalation.

Estimated time to secure the station?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 06:17pm

How many defending troops are there? They can take C&C inside of five minutes easily, but if the defending troops dig themselves in all over the station, mop-up could take quite a while. Just finding them will be time-consuming.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-21 06:21pm

Does the EA have any sustained fire weapons?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-21 06:25pm

Darth Wong wrote:How many defending troops are there? They can take C&C inside of five minutes easily, but if the defending troops dig themselves in all over the station, mop-up could take quite a while. Just finding them will be time-consuming.

Now that you mention it, I don't really know how many troops B5 is supposed to have. I wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near a Stardestroyer's Stormtrooper force, but for the sake of argument, we could make it equal.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-21 06:27pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Does the EA have any sustained fire weapons?

In "Time Squared", Garibaldi had something that looke like a GPMG and apparently had a high rate of fire, but such weapons obviously aren't common on B5. They didn't deploy any against EarthForce boarders in "Severed Dreams".

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 06:58pm

I don't think they have that many troops. Didn't G'Kar offer a pitifully small number of Narns to beef up station security (like one or two hundred) which ended up serving as a significant fraction of their forces?

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-01-21 07:02pm

You see said Narns helping repel a Clark-loyal boarding party in "Severed Dreams," in fact... from what I recall the Narns and Garibaldi's security team were roughly equal in number.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2003-01-21 08:27pm

The key tactic used when Garibaldi and the narns were blocking the EA forces, was the choke point. If the EA troops had to come through one area, set it up as a kill zone.

For SW forces though, their helmet sensors would probably warn them of the weapons, and they could toss tear gas (or equivalents). Also, the stormtroopers can cruise through the alien atmospheres with no trouble due to their armor.

Of course, if they get into Brown sector/Downbelow/B5 slums, then it could get interesting. N'Grath might have an interest in keeping the current group of humans in charge vs the efficient and better equipped Empire. So the local criminal element might assist the security troops. "Hey, aren't you one of N'Grath's!" "Yeah, and they're shooting at both of us. What's your point?"

Best tactic for the Empire (IMNSHO), is to use ion weapons to disable the electrical equipment, then take the place using tear gas derivatives. Bring in a few techs later to replace the equipment, and you've got yourself a station.

Of course, this assumes that the Earth government doesn't offer them their own materials in exchange for taxi rides through hyperspace.

I figure B5 hyperspace is about 3.3k c, vs hyperspace 1million + c. I base this on Lise's comment to Garibaldi about him being 18 light years away at B5 (assuming she is on Earth). Combine that with the 4 day round trip for the White Star to reach Sol, strike Ganymede, and return.
So 18 ly/2 days = 9 ly per day = ~3300 ly per year.

Unless B5 managed to capture one of the Imperial officers, and the Star Destroyer has to rescue the officer? They don't know which part of the station he/she's in, so they have to take the place intact to get him/her out.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-21 08:32pm

Darth Wong wrote:I don't think they have that many troops. Didn't G'Kar offer a pitifully small number of Narns to beef up station security (like one or two hundred) which ended up serving as a significant fraction of their forces?

I think I have a better approach. According to the opening monologue of Season 2, Babylon 5 has a population of about 250,000. Anyone know what would be a typical police force for a population that size?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-21 08:39pm

Heh, the B5ers would be dead as doornails. If they're half as good as the Rebel troops were in ANH, whom I might add had at least three times as many troops and a superior defensive position, they'll be able to retreat quickly.

Throw thermal detonators into the mix and hittinglargegroups of troops isn't a problem any more. Throw down a E-WEB and you have high-power, rapid fire suppresion. Even lighter T-21s can easily fill their role.

Plus they would be blind in the smoke filled environments, and their PPGs would be helpless to stop them.

Weeding out hidden soldiers would be a sinch with a mix of thermal scanning and use of flamethrowers to get out the bugs.

Estimated time: 2-3 hours max to take B5.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-01-21 08:59pm

Well Garibaldi isn't stupid, if he realizes that he is anout to be borded by a superior force first thing he'll do is close of the area of invasion, second thing I would see him doing is vacuuming it, and if he was given the choice third thing he would do is after they have borded and he sees they aren't equiped for Zero-G fighting is to cut the gravity, equip his men for 0G, and have some fun.

Now here's a thought, are the living areas of b5 small enough to fit in a ISD's cargo hold?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-21 09:04pm

Straha wrote:Well Garibaldi isn't stupid, if he realizes that he is anout to be borded by a superior force first thing he'll do is close of the area of invasion,

Then just blow another hole in the hull and start dropping troops through there. Or play catch with some thermal detonators

second thing I would see him doing is vacuuming it,

Stormiescansurvive in a vacuum, albiet for a sort period of time. If necesary they could get oxygen tanks from their mothership.

and if he was given the choice third thing he would do is after they have borded and he sees they aren't equiped for Zero-G fighting is to cut the gravity, equip his men for 0G, and have some fun.

That would get rid of the stormies, but then of course....ENTER THE SPACETROOPER.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-21 09:11pm

If the defensors manage to obtain an Ewok arrow, they could start beheading stormtroopers though, then grab their blasters.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-21 09:16pm

Naa, not even that is likley Slab

Anyway to the subject at any

Troopers can take hard vacume for a few mintues but the problem with them blowing sections open is this

T-21's should do just fine on those blast doors that B5 has, meaning the station assult would consist of

-Breach Door!
*piiiiiffffffffffffffffffffff
Air escaping
dead troopers on floor
-Breach Door!
*pifffffffffff

And so on

Seele · Post by **Seele** » 2003-01-21 09:38pm

While I have no doubt that the Empire would win with the ppg's doing little damage to the stormtroopers. Due to the shere size of Babylon 5 and the resoucefulness of the B5 crew, it'll be rather bloody on both sides.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-01-21 11:01pm

Look, you start vacuming the entire section of the ship. No troops nearby, not one. Then when they are dead from the vacuum and send another wave of troops with extra O2 tanks after they land, and let them make in roads into the station you kill the gravity. Then finally when they send the space troopers you restart (if you can do it quickly enough) the gravity, and watch as big troopers in clunky armor go marching around a station being ambushed left and right.

This is not to say that B5 would win, just that it would hold of the stormies for a long enough time to get re-inforcements (if their still around the Vorlons might help) from whoever can send troops. And even then they would be hopeless

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-21 11:07pm

According to "By Any Means Necessary," the station has less than two thousand personnel and a few hundred dock workers on board. The vast majority of those would be technicians, command staff, ushers, and support staff like janitors. At most you're looking at two or three hundred security personnel, and "Severed Dreams" showed well under a hundred, counting the Narn, though it was clear that was only one element of the security in the station.