[WH40k] Black Templar research questions

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

It should be noted that the Black Templars have a lot more pull and clout within the Imperium. While on paper the Inquisition has the authority to investigate almost everyone and everything short of the Emperor himself and the Adeptus Custodes, in practice the politics are much more complex. A fringe Chapter bordering on heresy like the Blood Ravens are on a short leash, but an absurdly pious, scattered, and politically powerful Second Founding Chapter is nearly above reproach. The BTs can literally get away with murder.

[white_rabbit]

hmm, what would the =I= or black templar's reaction to an idividual with photographic memory, good pattern/logic talents, and unusually good observation be?

you know the classic William of Occam, Sherlock Holmes, Aspergers case detective?

You've just described mental attributes commonly found in the average space marine.

Their brains get buffed as well as their muscles

Not even the Dark Apostles

Methinks you mean Word Bearer's ?

[Shroom Man 777]

A smart Space Marine isn't really odd. You don't really see what Space Marines do off the battlefield, aside from training and shit. For all we know, there are Space Marines who read the philosophy of the Imperium, Space Marines who - while not Techmarines - know the principles of engineering and can assist in carpentry. That kind of stuff.

[Shadowtraveler]

Methinks you mean Word Bearer's ?

Heh, I was thinking of the book when I typed that.

[Kuja]

Well, the Black Templars are supposed to be the 40k equivalent to people who will butcher an entire town and fight against 10 to 1 odds while shouting CÆLUM DENIQUE.

Which means they'll butcher an entire planet for looking at them funny and charge a fortified position that is orders of magnitudes stronger than them.

And then win, because they're Space Marines.

Do they really butcher whole planets often? The Inquisitor in Dawn of War seemed to be taken back by the Blood Ravens' committing their homeworld to Exterminatus.

They don't go around doing it often, but neither do they hesitate to pull the trigger if it becomes absolutely necessary.

[Crom]

It should be noted that the Black Templars have a lot more pull and clout within the Imperium. While on paper the Inquisition has the authority to investigate almost everyone and everything short of the Emperor himself and the Adeptus Custodes, in practice the politics are much more complex. A fringe Chapter bordering on heresy like the Blood Ravens are on a short leash, but an absurdly pious, scattered, and politically powerful Second Founding Chapter is nearly above reproach. The BTs can literally get away with murder.

Do the BTs butt heads with the other Chapters? It sounds like more headstrong Chapters like the Space Wolves or the Dark Angels would occasionally run into them.

Does the Inquisition call on the BTs for support or for recruitment in to Death Wing? They seem to be a group that the Inquisition could trust.

Oh, and do you know any specifics on how the Cult of the Emperor manifests itself in the BTs? I was imagining something very much along the lines of Space Catholicism.

[Crom]

A smart Space Marine isn't really odd. You don't really see what Space Marines do off the battlefield, aside from training and shit. For all we know, there are Space Marines who read the philosophy of the Imperium, Space Marines who - while not Techmarines - know the principles of engineering and can assist in carpentry. That kind of stuff.

Well, from my experience of Dawn of War, they appear to feel that ignorance is some kind of virtue. I could easily imagine a hard-line extremist group like the BTs reviling a BT with a more scholarly bent.

[Crom]

They don't go around doing it often, but neither do they hesitate to pull the trigger if it becomes absolutely necessary.

Do they have a benign presence in regions? They build Chapter holds on planets, does that help advance those worlds into productive regions for the IoM? Have they done much good for the IoM?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Do the BTs butt heads with the other Chapters? It sounds like more headstrong Chapters like the Space Wolves or the Dark Angels would occasionally run into them.

Does the Inquisition call on the BTs for support or for recruitment in to Death Wing? They seem to be a group that the Inquisition could trust.

Oh, and do you know any specifics on how the Cult of the Emperor manifests itself in the BTs? I was imagining something very much along the lines of Space Catholicism.

The BTs and Dark Angels have historically had some dicey run-ins before. They don't get along. The BTs are very much "For the EMPEROR!" which conflicts with the DA's ulterior motives.

I doubt very many Inquisitors would be too enamored with the Black Templars. Very Puritan Monodominants might like them, but even Amalathians and Thorians probably would not be too keen on the BTs reckless zeal, to say nothing of Radicals. And it's the Deathwatch. The Deathwing is the Dark Angels' Terminator company. And because of the BTs political clout, relations in general with the Inquisition would be rather icy - the BTs would despise many things about the Inquisition and scorn any interference in their own affairs, and the Inquisition does not like things which they cannot exert influence over.

As for the Imperial Creed, Space Marines in general tend to revere the Emperor as a grandfather of sorts and an inspirational leader, not a literal deity. The BTs may take a slightly more religious view than most, but I don't know for certain.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, from my experience of Dawn of War, they appear to feel that ignorance is some kind of virtue. I could easily imagine a hard-line extremist group like the BTs reviling a BT with a more scholarly bent.

Look, its rather hard to have a Space Marine remain stupid and yet able to do all the shit they do tactically, nevermind preserve their own equipment. As I said, Space Marines get a really extenxive education as part of the process.

What you're probably perceiving as "stupidity" or "ignroance" is probably more due to a combination of other traits: Space marine determination (or stubbornness), their pragmatism, their devotion to their cause(s) (whatever they are), and all the other traits that basically get ingrained to them fro the get go. Its an advantage in a lot of ways (or at least a neccessary evil) but it also does have its drawbacks (Space Marines will willingly and happily sacrifice themselves and those around them to sacrifice their ends and consider it a just choice)

Likewise, their determination to win (sometimes at all costs) as well as there inherent sense of superiority (especially over aliens or heretics or whatnot) can contribute to the appearance of being "stupid" and ignorance is more a form of "tunnel vision". They're not stupid, per se, just exceptionally motivated/driven (which as I said can be an asset and a liability.)

[Connor MacLeod]

It should be noted that the Black Templars have a lot more pull and clout within the Imperium. While on paper the Inquisition has the authority to investigate almost everyone and everything short of the Emperor himself and the Adeptus Custodes, in practice the politics are much more complex. A fringe Chapter bordering on heresy like the Blood Ravens are on a short leash, but an absurdly pious, scattered, and politically powerful Second Founding Chapter is nearly above reproach. The BTs can literally get away with murder.

It probably varies depending on the branch and inquisitors in question and the Chapters in question. Not all Inquisitors have the same power after all. In theory they do carry alot of clout simply by virtue of being an inquisitor, but given the somewhat tenuous nature of communications in the Imperium, they won't necceesarily be in communication with a source of "power" (in many cases some sort of firepower). An Inquisitor in the midst of Space Marine territory (Say onboard a ship) with little or no entourage won't neccesarily have all that much power (cf: The novel Chapter War.)

[Cykeisme]

It's strange that I've never encountered serfs in any of the novels I have read. It seems like the support troops of Space Marines could play incredibly important roles in the success of Chapters.

Haven't I heard about a battle in which the Brothers of the Snake hold off a literal Green Tide while a group of serfs hand them a constant supply of ammunition reloads?

[darth korte]

Do the BTs butt heads with the other Chapters? It sounds like more headstrong Chapters like the Space Wolves or the Dark Angels would occasionally run into them.

There is short story in some WD about Black Templar crusade and Dark Angels battle force fighting together in campaing. At the end of the campaing Templars found mysterious person (Cypher), and he surrenders to them. When Dark Angels learn about this, they demand Templars to give him to Dark angels. Black Templars refuse. All contacts are lost to that crusade.

[Kuja]

Do they have a benign presence in regions? They build Chapter holds on planets, does that help advance those worlds into productive regions for the IoM? Have they done much good for the IoM?

No specific info, but it's another thing I can see happening.

Do the BTs butt heads with the other Chapters? It sounds like more headstrong Chapters like the Space Wolves or the Dark Angels would occasionally run into them.

There's a short story I read a long time ago (I wish I could find it again) where a Black Templar vessel delivered a corrupted Space Wolf to Fenris as a courtesy to the Wolves and was subsequently destroyed to prevent any chance of the taint spreading. When the crusade the ship had belonged to found out, they suddenly wheeled around and started making speed for Fenris. The wolves shit a brick and apologized to the Templars before they became embroiled in a full scale chapter/crusade war.

I doubt very many Inquisitors would be too enamored with the Black Templars. Very Puritan Monodominants might like them, but even Amalathians and Thorians probably would not be too keen on the BTs reckless zeal, to say nothing of Radicals. And it's the Deathwatch. The Deathwing is the Dark Angels' Terminator company. And because of the BTs political clout, relations in general with the Inquisition would be rather icy - the BTs would despise many things about the Inquisition and scorn any interference in their own affairs, and the Inquisition does not like things which they cannot exert influence over.

The Deathwatch chaplain in 'Warrior Brood' is a Black Templar, so clearly the Inquisition does indeed recruit from their ranks.

[Crom]

The BTs and Dark Angels have historically had some dicey run-ins before. They don't get along. The BTs are very much "For the EMPEROR!" which conflicts with the DA's ulterior motives.

Minus the DTs hardon for the Fallen, aren't they just as equally, "For the EMPEROR"? You think they could get behind each other on that one. Though, if the BTs found out about the Fallen would they turn on the DAs?

I doubt very many Inquisitors would be too enamored with the Black Templars. Very Puritan Monodominants might like them, but even Amalathians and Thorians probably would not be too keen on the BTs reckless zeal, to say nothing of Radicals. And it's the Deathwatch. The Deathwing is the Dark Angels' Terminator company. And because of the BTs political clout, relations in general with the Inquisition would be rather icy - the BTs would despise many things about the Inquisition and scorn any interference in their own affairs, and the Inquisition does not like things which they cannot exert influence over.

Thanks for setting me straight on the Deathwatch/Deathwing names. Just out of curiosity, if the BTs and Inquisition throw down, who would side with the BTs?

[Crom]

Look, its rather hard to have a Space Marine remain stupid and yet able to do all the shit they do tactically, nevermind preserve their own equipment. As I said, Space Marines get a really extenxive education as part of the process.

What you're probably perceiving as "stupidity" or "ignroance" is probably more due to a combination of other traits: Space marine determination (or stubbornness), their pragmatism, their devotion to their cause(s) (whatever they are), and all the other traits that basically get ingrained to them fro the get go. Its an advantage in a lot of ways (or at least a neccessary evil) but it also does have its drawbacks (Space Marines will willingly and happily sacrifice themselves and those around them to sacrifice their ends and consider it a just choice)

Likewise, their determination to win (sometimes at all costs) as well as there inherent sense of superiority (especially over aliens or heretics or whatnot) can contribute to the appearance of being "stupid" and ignorance is more a form of "tunnel vision". They're not stupid, per se, just exceptionally motivated/driven (which as I said can be an asset and a liability.)

Space Marines never struck me as stupid, but heavily indoctrinated and extremely fundamentalist. But I see what you're saying and how it could be a flaw.

[Crom]

There is short story in some WD about Black Templar crusade and Dark Angels battle force fighting together in campaing. At the end of the campaing Templars found mysterious person (Cypher), and he surrenders to them. When Dark Angels learn about this, they demand Templars to give him to Dark angels. Black Templars refuse. All contacts are lost to that crusade.

And the BTs just let that slide?

[Crom]

There's a short story I read a long time ago (I wish I could find it again) where a Black Templar vessel delivered a corrupted Space Wolf to Fenris as a courtesy to the Wolves and was subsequently destroyed to prevent any chance of the taint spreading. When the crusade the ship had belonged to found out, they suddenly wheeled around and started making speed for Fenris. The wolves shit a brick and apologized to the Templars before they became embroiled in a full scale chapter/crusade war.

The Space Wolves backed down? That seems amazingly out of character for the space vikings.

The Deathwatch chaplain in 'Warrior Brood' is a Black Templar, so clearly the Inquisition does indeed recruit from their ranks.

They just struck me as the ideal recruits for the Deathwatch. Hard-line, an impeccable heritage and a unquestioning manner.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Minus the DTs hardon for the Fallen, aren't they just as equally, "For the EMPEROR"? You think they could get behind each other on that one. Though, if the BTs found out about the Fallen would they turn on the DAs?

They're too busy cutting themselves to the tune of "Crawling In My Skin" to serve the Emperor properly.

Thanks for setting me straight on the Deathwatch/Deathwing names. Just out of curiosity, if the BTs and Inquisition throw down, who would side with the BTs?

The Inquisition is not a unified entity. Though it has prevailing winds and a universal mandate, it would never and can never present a unified front toward much of anything.

What could conceivably happen is an individual Inquisitor or even a commissioned cabal may run afoul of a Black Templar crusade. Such a conflict would be fairly small, contained, and promptly covered up by the Inquisition, however. The exact circumstances around the 'disagreement' could vary as much as Inquisitors themselves do. For example, a Xanthite Radical would immediately be at odds with a BT force - say the BTs slaughtered some heretics and found a Chaos shrine, which of course they would immediately want to annihilate with everything in their arsenal; whereas said Xanthite would probably try to explore and use said shrine for his own benefit. Naturally this would cause a conflict of interest.

On the flip side of the coin, a conflict could be a lot more ambiguous. A Puritan Amalathian would in all likelihood nominally agree with the BTs in most affairs (e.g., destroy above shrine), but differ significantly in methodology and modus operandi. An Amalathian and his retinue could be working undercover on a fringe planet in an attempt to follow a lead to a heretical smuggling ring when the BTs come tromping on by and decide to blow the shit out of these backwater folks who don't quite revere the Emperor enough for the BTs' tastes. If said action jeopardizes the Inquisitor's investigation or kills some of his valued retinue, he might naturally be rather pissed with the BTs and thus another Imperial internecine conflict is born.

[SylasGaunt]

The Space Wolves backed down? That seems amazingly out of character for the space vikings.

They also tend to be pretty practical sorts and probably decided it was worth apologizing in order to prevent a shooting war between two space marine chapters.


IIRC isn't it that the Black Templars don't have the 1000 man cap lifted so much as they loophole around it by marking all the members of a crusade off as casualties when they leave?

[Academia Nut]

Nah, they get around the cap by being so scattered that no one has ever been able to get a good count on them. Their higher ups probably know the full extent of their forces, but their on so many crusades that its hard for anyone else to know who is who and who is where at any given time.

If they get caught they would probably call it a clerical error and get broken up a bit into a bunch of smaller chapters and sent on some penitent crusades. Which is to say that nothing would really change.

[The Yosemite Bear]

not to mention there is a official bit of fluff that they have killed more than one Iquisitor who was trying to investigate said "Clerical Enomoly" and then blamed it on "Heretics", so they are doing the same work around that the Astral Claws were, they are just getting away with it.