Violence Leaves Young Iraqis Doubting Clerics

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Violence Leaves Young Iraqis Doubting Clerics

Post by Gerald Tarrant »

A long, article but a good one.
BAGHDAD — After almost five years of war, many young people in Iraq, exhausted by constant firsthand exposure to the violence of religious extremism, say they have grown disillusioned with religious leaders and skeptical of the faith that they preach.

In two months of interviews with 40 young people in five Iraqi cities, a pattern of disenchantment emerged, in which young Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives.

“I hate Islam and all the clerics because they limit our freedom every day and their instruction became heavy over us,” said Sara, a high school student in Basra. “Most of the girls in my high school hate that Islamic people control the authority because they don’t deserve to be rulers.”

Atheer, a 19-year-old from a poor, heavily Shiite neighborhood in southern Baghdad, said: “The religion men are liars. Young people don’t believe them. Guys my age are not interested in religion anymore.”

The shift in Iraq runs counter to trends of rising religious practice among young people across much of the Middle East, where religion has replaced nationalism as a unifying ideology.


While religious extremists are admired by a number of young people in other parts of the Arab world, Iraq offers a test case of what could happen when extremist theories are applied. Fingers caught in the act of smoking were broken. Long hair was cut and force-fed to its wearer. In that laboratory, disillusionment with Islamic leaders took hold.

It is far from clear whether the shift means a wholesale turn away from religion. A tremendous piety still predominates in the private lives of young Iraqis, and religious leaders, despite the increased skepticism, still wield tremendous power. Measuring religious adherence, furthermore, is a tricky business in Iraq, where access to cities and towns far from Baghdad is limited.

But a shift seems to be registering, at least anecdotally, in the choices some young Iraqis are making.


Professors reported difficulty in recruiting graduate students for religion classes. Attendance at weekly prayers appears to be down, even in areas where the violence has largely subsided, according to worshipers and imams in Baghdad and Falluja. In two visits to the weekly prayer session in Baghdad of the followers of the militant Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr this fall, vastly smaller crowds attended than had in 2004 or 2005.

Such patterns, if lasting, could lead to a weakening of the political power of religious leaders in Iraq. In a nod to those changing tastes, political parties are dropping overt references to religion.

‘You Cost Us This’

“In the beginning, they gave their eyes and minds to the clerics; they trusted them,” said Abu Mahmoud, a moderate Sunni cleric in Baghdad, who now works deprogramming religious extremists in American detention. “It’s painful to admit, but it’s changed. People have lost too much. They say to the clerics and the parties: You cost us this.”

“When they behead someone, they say ‘Allahu akbar,’ they read Koranic verse,” said a moderate Shiite sheik from Baghdad, using the phrase for “God is great.”

“The young people, they think that is Islam,” he said. “So Islam is a failure, not only in the students’ minds, but also in the community.”

A professor at Baghdad University’s School of Law, who identified herself only as Bushra, said of her students: “They have changed their views about religion. They started to hate religious men. They make jokes about them because they feel disgusted by them.”

That was not always the case. Saddam Hussein encouraged religion in Iraqi society in his later years, building Sunni mosques and injecting more religion into the public school curriculum, but always made sure it served his authoritarian needs.

Shiites, considered to be an opposing political force and a threat to Mr. Hussein’s power, were kept under close watch. Young Shiites who worshiped were seen as political subversives and risked attracting the attention of the police.

For that reason, the American liberation tasted sweetest to the Shiites, who for the first time were able to worship freely. They soon became a potent political force, as religious political leaders appealed to their shared and painful past and their respect for the Shiite religious hierarchy.

“After 2003, you couldn’t put your foot into the husseiniya, it was so crowded with worshipers,” said Sayeed Sabah, a Shiite religious leader from Baghdad, referring to a Shiite place of prayer.

Religion had moved abruptly into the Shiite public space, but often in ways that made educated, religious Iraqis uncomfortable. Militias were offering Koran courses. Titles came cheaply. In Mr. Mahmoud’s neighborhood, a butcher with no knowledge of Islam became the leader of a mosque.

A moderate Shiite cleric, Sheik Qasim, recalled watching in amazement as a former student, who never earned more than mediocre marks, whizzed by stalled traffic in a long convoy of sport utility vehicles in central Baghdad. He had become a religious leader.

“I thought I would get out of the car, grab him and slap him!” said the sheik. “These people don’t deserve their positions.”

An official for the Ministry of Education in Baghdad, a secular Shiite, described the newfound faith like this: “It was like they wanted to put on a new, stylish outfit.”

Religious Sunnis, for their part, also experienced a heady swell in mosque attendance, but soon became the hosts for groups of religious extremists, foreign and Iraqi, who were preparing to fight the United States.

Zane Mohammed, a gangly 19-year-old with an earnest face, watched with curiosity as the first Islamists in his Baghdad neighborhood came to barbershops, tea parlors and carpentry stores before taking over the mosques. They were neither uneducated nor poor, he said, though they focused on those who were.

Then, one morning while waiting for a bus to school, he watched a man walk up to a neighbor, a college professor whose sect Mr. Mohammed did not know, shoot the neighbor at point blank range three times, and walk back to his car as calmly “as if he was leaving a grocery store.”

“Nobody is thinking,” Mr. Mohammed said in an interview in October. “We use our minds just to know what to eat. This is something I am very sad about. We hear things and just believe them.”

Weary of Bloodshed

By 2006, even those who had initially taken part in the violence were growing weary. Haidar, a grade-school dropout, was proud to tell his family he was following a Shiite cleric in a fight against American soldiers in the summer of 2004. Two years later, however, he found himself in the company of gangsters.

Young militia members were abusing drugs. Gift mopeds had become gift guns. In three years, Haidar saw five killings, mostly of Sunnis, including that of a Sunni cab driver shot for his car.

It was just as bad, if not worse, for young Sunnis. Rubbed raw by Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, a homegrown Sunni insurgent group that American intelligence says is led by foreigners, they found themselves stranded in neighborhoods that were governed by seventh-century rules. During an interview with a dozen Sunni teenage boys in a Baghdad detention facility on several sticky days in September, several of them expressed relief at being in jail, so they could wear shorts, a form of dress they would have been punished for in their neighborhoods.

Some Iraqis argue that the religious-based politics was much more about identity than faith. When Shiites voted for religious parties in large numbers in an election in 2005, it was more an effort to show their numbers, than a victory of the religious over the secular.

“It was a fight to prove our existence,” said a young Shiite journalist from Sadr City. “We were embracing our existence, not religion.”

The war dragged on, and young people from both the Shiite and Sunni sects became more broadly involved. Criminals had begun using teenagers and younger boys to carry out killings. The number of Iraqi juveniles in American detention was up more than sevenfold in November from April last year, and Iraq’s main prison for youth, situated in Baghdad, has triple the prewar population.

Different Motivations

But while younger people were taking a more active role in the violence, their motivation was less likely than that of the adults to be religion-driven. Of the 900 juvenile detainees in American custody in November, fewer than 10 percent claimed to be fighting a holy war, according to the American military. About one-third of adults said they were.

A worker in the American detention system said that by her estimate, only about a third of the adult detainee population, which is overwhelmingly Sunni, prayed.
[editorially: :shock: even the Islamists aren't religious?]

“As a group, they are not religious,” said Maj. Gen. Douglas Stone, the head of detainee operations for the American military. “When we ask if they are doing it for jihad, the answer is no.”

Muath, a slender, 19-year-old Sunni with distant eyes and hollow cheeks, is typical. He was selling cellphone credits and plastic flowers, struggling to keep his mother and five young siblings afloat, when an insurgent recruiter in western Baghdad, a man in his 30s who is a regular customer, offered him cash last spring to be part of an insurgent group whose motivations were a mix of money and sect.

Muath, the only wage earner in his family, agreed. Suddenly his family could afford to eat meat again, he said in an interview last September.
[editorially again: anecdotal, but still it looks like much of the insurgency was the botched occupation, poor young men without job prospects were easy to recruit into insurgets]

Indeed, at least part of the religious violence in Baghdad had money at its heart. An officer at the Kadhimiya detention center, where Muath was being held last fall, said recordings of beheadings fetched much higher prices than those of shooting executions in the CD markets, which explains why even nonreligious kidnappers will behead hostages.

“The terrorist loves the money,” said Capt. Omar, a prison worker who did not want to be identified by his full name. “The money has big magic. I give him $10,000 to do small thing. You think he refuse?”

When Muath was arrested last year, the police found two hostages, Shiite brothers, in a safe house that Muath told them about. Photographs showed the men looking wide-eyed into the camera; dark welts covered their bodies.

Violent struggle against the United States was easy to romanticize at a distance.

“I used to love Osama bin Laden,” proclaimed a 24-year-old Iraqi college student. She was referring to how she felt before the war took hold in her native Baghdad. The Sept. 11, 2001, strike at American supremacy was satisfying, and the deaths abstract.

Now, the student recites the familiar complaints: Her college has segregated the security checks; guards told her to stop wearing a revealing skirt; she covers her head for safety.

“Now I hate Islam,” she said, sitting in her family’s unadorned living room in central Baghdad. “Al Qaeda and the Mahdi Army are spreading hatred. People are being killed for nothing.”


Worried Parents

Parents have taken new precautions to keep their children out of trouble. Abu Tahsin, a Shiite from northern Baghdad, said that when his extended family had built a Shiite mosque, they did not register it with the religious authorities, even though it would have brought privileges, because they did not want to become entangled with any of the main religious Shiite groups that control Baghdad.

In Falluja, a Sunni city west of Baghdad that had been overrun by Al Qaeda, Sheik Khalid al-Mahamedie, a moderate cleric, said fathers now came with their sons to mosques to meet the instructors of Koran courses. Families used to worry most about their daughters in adolescence, but now, the sheik said, they worry more about their sons.

“Before, parents warned their sons not to smoke or drink,” said Mohammed Ali al-Jumaili, a Falluja father with a 20-year-old son. “Now all their energy is concentrated on not letting them be involved with terrorism.”

Recruiters are relentless, and, as it turns out, clever, peddling things their young targets need. General Stone compares it to as a sales pitch a pimp gives to a prospective prostitute. American military officers at the American detention center said it was the Qaeda detainees who were best prepared for group sessions and asked the most questions.

A Qaeda recruiter approached Mr. Mohammed, the 19-year-old, on a college campus with the offer of English lessons. Though lessons had been a personal ambition of Mr. Mohammed’s for months, once he knew what the man was after, he politely avoided him.

“When you talk with them, you find them very modern, very smart,” said Mr. Mohammed, a non-religious Shiite, who recalled feigning disdain for his own sect to avoid suspicion.

The population they focused on, however, was poor and uneducated. About 60 percent of the American adult detainee population is illiterate, and is unable to even read the Koran that religious recruiters are preaching.

That leads to strange twists. One young detainee, a client of Abu Mahmoud, the moderate Sunni cleric, was convinced that he had to kill his parents when he was released, because they were married in an insufficiently Islamic way. General Stone is trying to rectify the problem by offering religion classes taught by moderates.

There is a new favorite game in the lively household of the young Baghdad journalist. When they see a man with a turban on television, they yell and crack jokes. In one joke, people are warned not to give their cellphone numbers to a religious man.

“If he knows the number, he’ll steal the phone’s credit,” the journalist said. “The sheiks are making a society of nonbelievers.”
NY Times

In conjunction with that there is This

short summary
About 93 percent of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are moderates and only seven percent are politically radical, according to the poll, based on more than 50,000 interviews.

In majority Muslim countries, overwhelming majorities said religion was a very important part of their lives -- 99 percent in Indonesia, 98 percent in Egypt, 95 percent in Pakistan.

But only seven percent of the billion Muslims surveyed -- the radicals -- condoned the attacks on the United States in 2001, the poll showed.
I had a Muslim Room-mate for a while, and I've known a few Muslims. Their college stays made them very pro-western, enough so that those that went back to the Middle East immediately started applying for re-entrance into the US. One of them sent me an email noting "the only American thing he hated was the INS/ICE bureaucracy."

Certainly the Iraqi development is hopeful. One of the great developments in Europe was the separation of religious and secular influence. Maybe the religious disaffection in Iraq will have a similar effect? It would be appropriate for one of the ancient seats of civilization to start those sorts of reforms. I'm sure I'm being overblown and premature in my hopes/prognostication, but it's a good sign.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Something like that also came up for most of the youth of Iran when I was researching for a project on the role of the Internet in Iran. It seems that most muslim young people don't actually like living under a theocracy once they get, which would seem to be no surprise to us but apparently one to much of the muslim youth in the Middle East .
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

The majority of Iran's population is under the age of 30. Link I believe most political folks look at that as one of the key indicators of revolution/massive social change. Iran's government being so repressive makes the social pressure cooker boils over sooner.
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Post by CJvR »

Hardly surprising. Fundamentalist Theocracy is hardly a pleasant experience for people, with exception for the raving lunatics who not only enjoy it but also tend to be the ones with the guns in such places.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Good. I hope we'll see the day when both sides, West and Middle East, realize that conservatism, dogma, religiousness, and plain stupidity brings people nothing but grief.
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Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Are they rejecting fundamentalist Islam because they honestly think it's an immoral, ineffective and illogical way to run a society or view the universe, or are they just entranced by images of Hollywood and western glitz and resent the clerics for denying them their bottle on that count? Because if it's the latter, then fuck those whiny babies. They're just reconversions waiting to happen once the high wears out.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Are they rejecting fundamentalist Islam because they honestly think it's an immoral, ineffective and illogical way to run a society or view the universe, or are they just entranced by images of Hollywood and western glitz and resent the clerics for denying them their bottle on that count? Because if it's the latter, then fuck those whiny babies. They're just reconversions waiting to happen once the high wears out.
If you'd bothered to give the article a passing read it makes it fairly obvious that the young people cited have become disillusioned with the violence and repression imposed upon them by Islamic law. I doubt it has much to do with logic and rationality and it almost certainly has nothing to do with Hollywood and "western glitz". But hey, please continue to dismiss the suffering of people about whom you know little and comprehend nothing.
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Post by TithonusSyndrome »

HemlockGrey wrote:
Are they rejecting fundamentalist Islam because they honestly think it's an immoral, ineffective and illogical way to run a society or view the universe, or are they just entranced by images of Hollywood and western glitz and resent the clerics for denying them their bottle on that count? Because if it's the latter, then fuck those whiny babies. They're just reconversions waiting to happen once the high wears out.
If you'd bothered to give the article a passing read it makes it fairly obvious that the young people cited have become disillusioned with the violence and repression imposed upon them by Islamic law.
"Repression" of what? Of the basic civil rights that most people ought to have, or of their lust for a piece of the American dream? Pouting and pointing to their vague dissatisfaction with "repression" does nothing to clear that up.
I doubt it has much to do with logic and rationality and it almost certainly has nothing to do with Hollywood and "western glitz". But hey, please continue to dismiss the suffering of people about whom you know little and comprehend nothing.
If it has little to do with logic and rationality, then what other motivation would it have other than it not being what they want? You seem to think that they can just not want to have the clerics on their backs for no reason at all, and if there's an alternative to them finding it immoral and irrational versus it not being the soother they want to suck on, then please, make me aware of it.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:If it has little to do with logic and rationality, then what other motivation would it have other than it not being what they want? You seem to think that they can just not want to have the clerics on their backs for no reason at all, and if there's an alternative to them finding it immoral and irrational versus it not being the soother they want to suck on, then please, make me aware of it.
Well, there is the issue of not getting killed etc. etc. etc. or do you need more reasons why living in a war zone for years will get anyone disenchanted with the ruling powers who use religion as a means of controlling the populace?
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Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
TithonusSyndrome wrote:If it has little to do with logic and rationality, then what other motivation would it have other than it not being what they want? You seem to think that they can just not want to have the clerics on their backs for no reason at all, and if there's an alternative to them finding it immoral and irrational versus it not being the soother they want to suck on, then please, make me aware of it.
Well, there is the issue of not getting killed etc. etc. etc. or do you need more reasons why living in a war zone for years will get anyone disenchanted with the ruling powers who use religion as a means of controlling the populace?
If there's a strong risk they'll backslide into religious barbarism once the chips are down, their spirits are low, post-peak scarcity sets in and the high of doing what they please comes to an end, then forgive me a little cynicism over their newfound dissent.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:If there's a strong risk they'll backslide into religious barbarism once the chips are down, their spirits are low, post-peak scarcity sets in and the high of doing what they please comes to an end, then forgive me a little cynicism over their newfound dissent.
Well, that possibility might just happen, but everything, even some bits of religious cynicism, has to begin somewhere. The Thirty Years War in Europe did its bit to get Europe on the path to secularism.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

"Repression" of what? Of the basic civil rights that most people ought to have, or of their lust for a piece of the American dream? Pouting and pointing to their vague dissatisfaction with "repression" does nothing to clear that up.
Where on earth did you pull this American dream nonsense for? What phrase or statement in the article even vaguely suggests that?
If it has little to do with logic and rationality, then what other motivation would it have other than it not being what they want? You seem to think that they can just not want to have the clerics on their backs for no reason at all, and if there's an alternative to them finding it immoral and irrational versus it not being the soother they want to suck on, then please, make me aware of it.
Clearly they're just tired of clerics mucking around in their personal lives and running the nation into the ground. It has nothing to do with the utter nonsense about Hollywood and western glitz that you fabricated out of whole cloth.

And, just fyi, if you want to be cynical, there's a difference between "This probably won't last, what a shame" and "fuck those whiny babies." One makes you sound worldly and disillusioned (sorta) and the other makes you sound like a tool.
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Post by ArmorPierce »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
TithonusSyndrome wrote:If it has little to do with logic and rationality, then what other motivation would it have other than it not being what they want? You seem to think that they can just not want to have the clerics on their backs for no reason at all, and if there's an alternative to them finding it immoral and irrational versus it not being the soother they want to suck on, then please, make me aware of it.
Well, there is the issue of not getting killed etc. etc. etc. or do you need more reasons why living in a war zone for years will get anyone disenchanted with the ruling powers who use religion as a means of controlling the populace?
If there's a strong risk they'll backslide into religious barbarism once the chips are down, their spirits are low, post-peak scarcity sets in and the high of doing what they please comes to an end, then forgive me a little cynicism over their newfound dissent.
You know what the funny thing is? The funny thing is that they were never religious fanatics in the first place. When Saddam Hussein was in charge they were a secularist government. Your argument that they deserve what they get has no merit.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

TithonusSyndrome wrote: If there's a strong risk they'll backslide into religious barbarism once the chips are down, their spirits are low, post-peak scarcity sets in and the high of doing what they please comes to an end, then forgive me a little cynicism over their newfound dissent.
The problem is that they haven't been in a state of war for five years; it's been more like twenty-five years. The Iran-Iraq War really fucked up the economy of Iraq, and it wasn't a fun war either. Then after the war Saddam Hussein had the bright idea of invading Kuwait, which eventually led to an embargo against Iraq which lasted for over a decade; this wrecked their economy even further. Then, finally, the US outright invaded Iraq and the Iraqis were subjected to an occupation which has seen the availability of public utilities decrease since the invasion.

And to cap this all off, the Iraqi people know that their plight is not attributable to any natural force like oil running out (hey maybe we should just rename this the "News Of Peak [Resource]" forum), but to the actions of either Saddam Hussein or the western world, inspiring a whole lot of hatred and bitterness and discontent, and making it a hell of a lot easier for them to be rallied by a religious leader who already commands significant respect and trust in their community. When there's no bright future in sight, the general public is pretty fucking willing to turn to a religious man to help see them through, no matter what part of the world you're in.

Let's see your country experience an entire generation born and raised under wartime conditions that can be directly blamed on someone, let's see how your country deals with it, and then we can talk about whether or not you've got a fucking leg to stand on to call the Iraqis a bunch of dumb savages.
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Post by TithonusSyndrome »

HemlockGrey wrote:
"Repression" of what? Of the basic civil rights that most people ought to have, or of their lust for a piece of the American dream? Pouting and pointing to their vague dissatisfaction with "repression" does nothing to clear that up.
Where on earth did you pull this American dream nonsense for? What phrase or statement in the article even vaguely suggests that?
None, you shrill clown; I said IF that's the case, then I'm not about to stand and applaud any such tantrum. The article didn't say, which is why I asked the goddamn question in the first place - where does their dissatisfaction with their mistreatment come from, the fact that they know they deserve better or just some supercilious railing against being beaten and whipped because they don't like it? Most Americans are cut from the latter cloth and look what their pursuit of personal comfort has gotten them, open any thread on the state of the economy.
If it has little to do with logic and rationality, then what other motivation would it have other than it not being what they want? You seem to think that they can just not want to have the clerics on their backs for no reason at all, and if there's an alternative to them finding it immoral and irrational versus it not being the soother they want to suck on, then please, make me aware of it.
Clearly they're just tired of clerics mucking around in their personal lives and running the nation into the ground. It has nothing to do with the utter nonsense about Hollywood and western glitz that you fabricated out of whole cloth.
Listen again - are they sick because they can tell that citizens ought to have certain rights not trampled on, or are they sick because they don't like it?
And, just fyi, if you want to be cynical, there's a difference between "This probably won't last, what a shame" and "fuck those whiny babies." One makes you sound worldly and disillusioned (sorta) and the other makes you sound like a tool.
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Post by TithonusSyndrome »

ArmorPierce wrote:
TithonusSyndrome wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Well, there is the issue of not getting killed etc. etc. etc. or do you need more reasons why living in a war zone for years will get anyone disenchanted with the ruling powers who use religion as a means of controlling the populace?
If there's a strong risk they'll backslide into religious barbarism once the chips are down, their spirits are low, post-peak scarcity sets in and the high of doing what they please comes to an end, then forgive me a little cynicism over their newfound dissent.
You know what the funny thing is? The funny thing is that they were never religious fanatics in the first place. When Saddam Hussein was in charge they were a secularist government. Your argument that they deserve what they get has no merit.
I didn't say they "deserve what they get", I'm saying I have no interest in giving them a big round of applause if they just want the clerics out of their way so they can get on with partying and living the American dream. Besides, as the latter article goes on to state, this isn't restricted to Iraq.
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TithonusSyndrome
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Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Uraniun235 wrote:
TithonusSyndrome wrote: If there's a strong risk they'll backslide into religious barbarism once the chips are down, their spirits are low, post-peak scarcity sets in and the high of doing what they please comes to an end, then forgive me a little cynicism over their newfound dissent.
<snip>

Let's see your country experience an entire generation born and raised under wartime conditions that can be directly blamed on someone, let's see how your country deals with it, and then we can talk about whether or not you've got a fucking leg to stand on to call the Iraqis a bunch of dumb savages.
Where in the hell did I call them "dumb savages"? If anything my concern has more in common with making sure that their motivation for wanting the clerics out doesn't create another credit-mad nation of Americans. If the clerics got to power because they had the means to hornswaggle the trusting Iraqi public with the promise of a better life and it got them nowhere, then they're obviously fairly impressionable, which is no fault of their own and makes them about on par with your average westerner (you decide if that makes them barbarians or not), and we all know how advertising preys on impressionable people.

Shroomy made a thread where he said more or less the same thing about the Singaporean people and their own futile cries for change, that they had cleaned house on one corrupt master but that they were totally oblivious to the almost certain corrupt nature of her successor and were just riding the peak of good feeling that came with the novelty of a new ruler. Trading a fundamentalist nightmare for a seductive consumer one isn't how I'd like to see the Iraq mess conclude, because it wouldn't amount to much more in the end for the long-suffering people there.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Philippines, man. Not Singapore ;)

I'd derail the thread if I'd ask about corruption in Singapore, so I won't.

A consumer-obsessed society is better than a fundamentalist nightmare, if you ask me. Doesn't matter, anyway. Most of the time, when you depose an asshole and change the shitty system, you end up with another shitty system. It just depends if the asshole is assholer, or if the shitty system is shittier, or less so. It's often a slow and painful progress, taking years, decades, and it happens... everywhere.
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TithonusSyndrome
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Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Philippines, man. Not Singapore ;)

I'd derail the thread if I'd ask about corruption in Singapore, so I won't.
Whoops. :oops: Sorry.
A consumer-obsessed society is better than a fundamentalist nightmare, if you ask me. Doesn't matter, anyway. Most of the time, when you depose an asshole and change the shitty system, you end up with another shitty system. It just depends if the asshole is assholer, or if the shitty system is shittier, or less so. It's often a slow and painful progress, taking years, decades, and it happens... everywhere.
Yeah, it probably is better. For a while, anyways, and even if the threat of backsliding is always there, I guess it's still something. I'm just more than cynical that most people who are nonreligious are that way because they've got creature comforts that give them immediate gratification no church could ever manage. I'm outright depressed. When the gravy train runs out, then even that small mote of progress, which by it's nature encourages no further progress, evaporates. Satiety is a shitty fucking cure for irrationality and barbarism, and it's capacity for bootstrapping onto something, anything better appears limited.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:
TithonusSyndrome wrote: If there's a strong risk they'll backslide into religious barbarism once the chips are down, their spirits are low, post-peak scarcity sets in and the high of doing what they please comes to an end, then forgive me a little cynicism over their newfound dissent.
<snip>

Let's see your country experience an entire generation born and raised under wartime conditions that can be directly blamed on someone, let's see how your country deals with it, and then we can talk about whether or not you've got a fucking leg to stand on to call the Iraqis a bunch of dumb savages.
Where in the hell did I call them "dumb savages"? If anything my concern has more in common with making sure that their motivation for wanting the clerics out doesn't create another credit-mad nation of Americans. If the clerics got to power because they had the means to hornswaggle the trusting Iraqi public with the promise of a better life and it got them nowhere, then they're obviously fairly impressionable, which is no fault of their own and makes them about on par with your average westerner (you decide if that makes them barbarians or not), and we all know how advertising preys on impressionable people.
You didn't say it, but it seemed implied to me. The impression I got was that you were deriding them as being less worthy of your respect than other people, when I doubt that other people would fare much better in the same circumstances.
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Post by brianeyci »

Uraniun235 wrote:You didn't say it, but it seemed implied to me. The impression I got was that you were deriding them as being less worthy of your respect than other people, when I doubt that other people would fare much better in the same circumstances.
You're not the only one. It's particularly offensive since he set up the false dilemma of wanting to get rid of the clerics because of "Hollywood glitz" or wanting to get rid of them because they're somehow "selfish." In other words, wanting to be just like Americans. He really thinks there's no choice besides being just like Americans or being just like the old Iranian way, when it's obvious the younger generation want something totally different, not Sharia and definitely not American.

But when he's called out on it by Hemlock Grey and ArmorPierce he says he didn't say with exactly those words etc. As if it matters if someone uses the exact wording but means the same thing. As if someone would say "if" if he didn't believe in at least a possibility, and as if someone calling him out for considering that possibility calling them was somehow wrong. If Obama was a Muslim... now let's just go around saying that...

He called them "whiny babies" for wanting freedom from religious oppression. You were damn right to think he thought they were savages because he did communicate that, but now he's back tracking when rightly dogpiled.
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

I'm not sure if this counts as a proper news source or not. If not please feel free to excise.
Ali Mohammadi -- or Ali M., as he likes to be called -- spends most of his salary on trendy clothes, haircuts, and expensive skincare products. He is just one of many Iranians for whom fashion -- besides being fun -- has become a form of protest against the country's strict Islamic dress code.

"I just got a new haircut and had my eyebrows shaped," Ali M. says over the phone from Tehran, jokingly but with a hint of pride in his voice.

In recent months, Iranian authorities have cracked down hard on Iranians who violate the dress code, which requires women to wear the head scarf and prohibits men from wearing short-sleeve shirts or ties. But that hasn't stopped legions of women and men from dressing as stylishly as they can. In fact, the more the authorities try to enforce the code, the more it seems Iranians want to push the boundaries of personal fashion -- even at the risk of fines and imprisonment.

Police often detain people with “improper clothing and haircuts,” but Ali M. says he couldn't care less. And he says there are millions like him, picking up on international fashion trends from satellite television channels, glossy magazines, and foreign travel.

Ali says he and his fellow Iranian "fashionistas," many of whom dress modestly in public but turn on the style at private gatherings, want to wear the latest designer labels and hairstyles. “I usually watch Fashion TV, World Fashion and other satellite channels,” he tells RFE/RL. “My favorite brand is Dolce and Gabbana (D&G). When I buy clothes, I try to follow the D&G style. Sometimes I buy this brand. Actually, yesterday I bought a pair of shoes from D&G’s limited edition. They are silver-colored with red lines on the seams.”

Ali M. works as the Tehran representative of a well-known European company that sells skincare products and perfumes. He says he can afford to purchase goods in numerous chic boutiques and get his hair done at salons where prices start from $100 per haircut.

Their Hearts' Desires

Tehran is full of trendy boutiques and shops offering Western-style clothes, including skimpy tops and figure-hugging trousers -- even though such items are forbidden. Ali M. says many well-known firms, such as Christian Dior or Armani, have branches in Iran where they sell their comestics. However, they don’t directly sell clothes, which instead are often specially ordered through private shops.

Apparently, nothing can discourage Iranians from trying to dress fashionably -- not the restrictive laws, not the morality police, not even exorbitant prices for designer labels.

According to Ali M., those "who cannot afford to pay $600 for a pair of designer shoes, can easily find an exact replica of the designer label for $60. The same goes for dresses, tops, and coats."

In interviews, some Iranian women say they lead double lives when it comes to clothes and fashion. One Tehran woman told RFE/RL: "We get dressed modestly for work, but privately we follow our hearts' desires -- opting, for instance, for sleeveless tops, plunging necklines, and short trousers."

Iraj Jamsheedi, an Iranian independent journalist, says many Iranians, especially urbanites, are increasingly frustrated with authorities meddling in their private lives. "Many people ignore the rules as much as they can, simply to protest this and other social restrictions," Jamsheedi says.

"Official decrees have failed to change people's dress sense. In many instances, the dress restrictions have had the opposite effect -- people's clothes have become more [liberal] than before. It is a sign that people are resisting these decrees."

Undeterred Youth

Neelofar, a 23-year-old Tehran resident, says she was detained by the morality police in a shopping center last summer. She was wearing "an overly short pair of trousers and showing too much hair under a loosely tied colorful head scarf."

Speaking to RFE/RL, Neelofar says she was taken to a police station along with a couple of other dress-code offenders. The police officers called Neelofar's parents who brought a "proper overcoat" for their daughter and gave a written pledge that Neelofar would never violate the law again.

Neelofar, however, had different ideas. "I didn't obey [the dress code] too much after the incident," she says. "But I wasn't detained anymore, maybe because I don't walk in the streets too much -- I usually travel by car or bus. Usually, [detention] happens to people who walk in the streets."

Jamsheedi regards the drive to enforce the dress code as part of a larger effort to control society. "The situation in Iran is not simple," the Tehran-based journalist says. "A social uprising could break out any minute. The authorities want to prevent any such upheaval by tightening their grip on people's lives."

Nuisha Boghrati and Farin Assemi from Radio Farda contributed to this report
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This may have been something that TithonusSyndrome was alluding to. That said, I completely support women's right to dress in as skimpy a manner as they feel is necessary.

I suppose there is partly a desire to dress "glitzy". But punishing someone for fashion choices is indefensible. I suppose I've sort of taken the freedom to dress as I please for granted, and I can't really think what it would be like to lose that freedom.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Oh my god...

Muslim Metrosexuals!
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Post by wautd »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Oh my god...

Muslim Metrosexuals!
Iran better starts worrying. It's only a matter of time before the Crab People succeed in their coup d'etat
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Biff McCain will merely use this as an excuse to invade Iran for having the greatest WMD weapon of all...

THE GAY BOMB!

Srsly though, stuff like this is excellent in showing us that people in the various countries of the Middle East are... well, people. Human beings. Whereas the typical American Idiot's world view would just think of all Iranians as black-robed steel mask-wearing Immortal Urukhais in desperate need of slaughtering by glorious Spartafreedomericans!
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Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
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