The silly Macedonia tiff

[Vympel]

What's in a name?

Nato tries to heal Macedonia row
By Malcolm Brabant
BBC News, Athens

Nato's secretary general is to visit Athens to try to convince Greece not to block the membership of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

Monday's visit of Jaap de Hoop Scheffer is part of a campaign of growing international pressure on Greece.

Athens has threatened to veto its northern neighbour unless it compromises over its official name.

Greece is convinced the former Yugoslavs have territorial designs on its northern province of Macedonia.

Unpopular

Nato wants the former Yugoslav republic beneath its umbrella as a safeguard against the country dividing between the Slav majority in the east and the Albanian minority in the west.

But diplomats here are sure that Mr de Hoop Scheffer's appeal to Greece not to use its veto will be rejected.

Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis has made it clear that unless the government in Skopje agrees to change its current name, Macedonia, the veto will be applied.

The UN's special envoy, Matthew Nimetz, has proposed five alternative names and began new talks in New York on Friday in an attempt to reach a solution, but he says there is a substantial gap between the two sides.

The dispute is seen as a very petty one in many corners of the world.

But a survey in Sunday's respected Kathimerini newspaper reveals that 84% of Greeks are in favour of vetoing what they call "the Skopjans" if there is no compromise.

In terms of domestic politics, Mr Karamanlis has very little room for manoeuvre.

He only has a majority of two seats in parliament. His administration - narrowly re-elected last September - is hugely unpopular.

The latest opinion polls show that voters are abandoning the ruling Conservatives in droves.

To show weakness over an issue that generates such passionate nationalistic sentiments would be terminal for Mr Karamanlis.

[Vympel]

Wikipedia actually has a suprisingly well sourced entry summarizing the dispute and the positions of the respective parties: Link

[thejester]

I remember once goading a second generation Greek kid over here about whether or not Alexander the Great was Greek or Macedonian. He got really, really fired up about it. Utterly ridiculous.

[atg]

I remember once goading a second generation Greek kid over here about whether or not Alexander the Great was Greek or Macedonian. He got really, really fired up about it. Utterly ridiculous.

I know a Greek family that I do the same too, it can be quite funny. He is known as the 'Macedonian King of Greece' and his father was Philip of Macedon after all...

[Sarevok]

Why are the Greeks and Macedonians even arguing this ? Should not they be in phalanx formation by now ?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Judging from the Map, Thessalonika is currently in Modern Greece which might make Alexander the Great a Greek, but he wasn't back then (not the least the usual Greek racism to throw in to boot).

[Pablo Sanchez]

I know a Greek family that I do the same too, it can be quite funny. He is known as the 'Macedonian King of Greece' and his father was Philip of Macedon after all...

In that case you're the one being silly, because the modern Macedonian (i.e., a resident of the F.Y.R.O.M.) is pretty much an offshoot of the Bulgarian, as opposed to having any relation at all to the ancient Macedonians. It's kind of like how both Tutankhamen and Cleopatra are called Egyptians, even though they were of utterly different ethnicities and cultural traditions. Of course, the Greeks themselves are substantially deviated from the population of Ancient Greece, what with the injection of Turkish and Slavic blood into the gene pool, but their claim really is a lot stronger.

[Crown]

What's in a name?

Quite a lot actually, judging by some of the 'brain trust' responses in this very thread that should be apparent.

Judging from the Map, Thessalonica is currently in Modern Greece which might make Alexander the Great a Greek, but he wasn't back then (not the least the usual Greek racism to throw in to boot).

I would love to know in what history class you were taught that the term 'Greek' and 'Macedonian' were mutually exclusive. And my advice to you is to ask for a refund for an educational system that has clearly failed.

In that case you're the one being silly, because the modern Macedonian (i.e., a resident of the F.Y.R.O.M.) is pretty much an offshoot of the Bulgarian, as opposed to having any relation at all to the ancient Macedonians. It's kind of like how both Tutankhamen and Cleopatra are called Egyptians, even though they were of utterly different ethnicities and cultural traditions. Of course, the Greeks themselves are substantially deviated from the population of Ancient Greece, what with the injection of Turkish and Slavic blood into the gene pool, but their claim really is a lot stronger.

It gets worse than that. Leaving aside the question of; who can call themselves X? Given the amount of time that has passed, and the migrations/invasion/interbreeding etc.

This is historical theft of a grand scale.

The idea that the government of Skopje wants to identify themselves as 'Macedonian' is in-and-of-itself not too surprising, nor troubling. However the idea (and indeed their own propaganda) that you can actually separate the term 'Macedonian' from 'Greek' that is of massive concern. The fact so many morons above me have actually fallen for the intellectual laziness not to question this modern day theft of identity just proves that Greece is not being unreasonable in its objections, and neither are her fears unfounded. Just read above for crying out loud.

And for those of you who still don't grasp the ridiculousness of the F.Y.R.O.M. antics think of this; if modern day Bulgaria were to break up and disintegrate today as Yugoslavia did a decade ago, then there will actually be a prefecture of Bulgaria that can call itself 'Macedonia' using the exact same reasons that F.Y.R.O.M. uses. Think about it.

[Kane Starkiller]

I would love to know in what history class you were taught that the term 'Greek' and 'Macedonian' were mutually exclusive. And my advice to you is to ask for a refund for an educational system that has clearly failed.

You make it sound like this is something important. It isn't.

It gets worse than that. Leaving aside the question of; who can call themselves X? Given the amount of time that has passed, and the migrations/invasion/interbreeding etc.

If the country was already name Macedonia for 50 years before the collapse of Yugoslavia and if Macedonian is how it's inhabitants call themselves then what the fuck is the problem? It's not like there are 50 Macedonias out there. The other Macedonia is a Greek province so there will be no confusion.
Maybe citizens of Boston, UK should start protesting because the new Boston in US stole their name. It's a historical theft on a grand scale!!!!!!

[Crown]

You make it sound like this is something important. It isn't.

If it's not important, then why don't they call themselves 'Applelitepiemunchers'? Oh look, guess it is important to some one, right?

If the country was already name Macedonia for 50 years before the collapse of Yugoslavia

And was called 'South Serbia' for how many centuries prior to that? Or did you miss the fact that the naming of the Socialist Republich of Macedonia was opposed by Greece even back then, but wasn't an issue since it wasn't a nation state in and of itself, but rather a part of a greater whole?

and if Macedonian is how it's inhabitants call themselves then what the fuck is the problem?

Because I AM MACEDOINIAN you dumb fuck. Born there in 1980. I don't know what the fuck this 'country' is, but it sure as fuck hasn't got anything to do with me.

It's not like there are 50 Macedonias out there. The other Macedonia is a Greek province so there will be no confusion.

Don't be asinine. The common misconception of the plebs has a tendacy to become reality. Look at the above. The idea that the term 'Macedonian' can be used mutually exclusive to the term 'Greek' is a fucking big fucking problem.

Maybe citizens of Boston, UK should start protesting because the new Boston in US stole their name. It's a historical theft on a grand scale!!!!!!

Maybe you should learn to fucking read and construct thought out and reasoned arguments dickwad. How about that? Think you can do that?

[Kane Starkiller]

If it's not important, then why don't they call themselves 'Applelitepiemunchers'? Oh look, guess it is important to some one, right?

It sounds stupid. Macedonian sounds better.

And was called 'South Serbia' for how many centuries prior to that? Or did you miss the fact that the naming of the Socialist Republich of Macedonia was opposed by Greece even back then, but wasn't an issue since it wasn't a nation state in and of itself, but rather a part of a greater whole?

And why is it an issue now? It was a name then it is a name now.

Because I AM MACEDOINIAN you dumb fuck. Born there in 1980. I don't know what the fuck this 'country' is, but it sure as fuck hasn't got anything to do with me.

So what? Bostonians from Massachusetts have nothing to do with Bostonians from Lincolnshire.

Don't be asinine. The common misconception of the plebs has a tendacy to become reality. Look at the above. The idea that the term 'Macedonian' can be used mutually exclusive to the term 'Greek' is a fucking big fucking problem.

WHO GIVES A FUCK. When you say Boston do you think people automatically think the one from Lincolnshire? Oooh oooh what about US state of Georgia and the country of Georgia. English speaking world will confuse them!!! Quickly do something before it's too late!

Maybe you should learn to fucking read and construct thought out and reasoned arguments dickwad. How about that? Think you can do that?

The Boston analogy is perfectly valid and there are many other. Don't think you can just dismiss it with insults.

[Crown]

It sounds stupid. Macedonian sounds better.

Uh-huh.

And why is it an issue now? It was a name then it is a name now.

Because now it isn't a part of a greater whole you dumb fuck.

So what? Bostonians from Massachusetts have nothing to do with Bostonians from Lincolnshire.

<snip>

WHO GIVES A FUCK. When you say Boston do you think people automatically think the one from Lincolnshire? Oooh oooh what about US state of Georgia and the country of Georgia. English speaking world will confuse them!!! Quickly do something before it's too late!

<snip>

The Boston analogy is perfectly valid and there are many other. Don't think you can just dismiss it with insults.

You are so mentally retarted that I am amazed that you can actually dress yourself in the morning (an assumption on my part there).

If you can't stop and differentiate between the issue of 2 things having the same name, but not impunging on each other's identity, and 2 things having the same name where one tries to actively monopolise said identity then there is no point in responding to your drivel with any more thought than you write.

Hey, fuck face. You FAILED to even read my first post. It doesn't bother me if they view themselves as 'Macedonian', it wouldn't bother me if they called themselves 'New Macedonia, Slavic Macedonia, X Macedonia'.

What infuriates me beyond belief is that they are not content in assosiating themselves as Macedonians, but they insist on de-coupling the Ancient Macedon from the Ancient Geek. And by extension the modern Macedonia from the modern Greek all because that's what they want. Well fuck them. And fuck you too. I don't want it. There. Use your own 'arguement' against you. They want it, I don't want it more, I win right?

Moron.

:rolleyes:

[Kane Starkiller]

Hey, fuck face. You FAILED to even read my first post. It doesn't bother me if they view themselves as 'Macedonian', it wouldn't bother me if they called themselves 'New Macedonia, Slavic Macedonia, X Macedonia'.

What's in a name?

Quite a lot actually, judging by some of the 'brain trust' responses in this very thread that should be apparent.

if modern day Bulgaria were to break up and disintegrate today as Yugoslavia did a decade ago, then there will actually be a prefecture of Bulgaria that can call itself 'Macedonia' using the exact same reasons that F.Y.R.O.M. uses. Think about it.

It doesn't seem like you don't "care" about the name here now does it. But nice try at backpedaling.

What infuriates me beyond belief is that they are not content in assosiating themselves as Macedonians, but they insist on de-coupling the Ancient Macedon from the Ancient Geek. And by extension the modern Macedonia from the modern Greek all because that's what they want. Well fuck them. And fuck you too. I don't want it. There. Use your own 'arguement' against you. They want it, I don't want it more, I win right?

And how exactly are they "decoupling" Ancient Greece from Ancient Macedon? And why the fuck is it sooo important whether Alexander the Great was ethnically closer to Greeks or Macedonians from the state of Macedonia other than a pure academic matter.

[Crown]

It doesn't seem like you don't "care" about the name here now does it. But nice try at backpedaling.

Orly?

The idea that the government of Skopje wants to identify themselves as 'Macedonian' is in-and-of-itself not too surprising, nor troubling.

Backpedaling shit for brains? No. Moonwalking circles around you? Yes.

And how exactly are they "decoupling" Ancient Greece from Ancient Macedon?

Wow. There were signs that you're an idiot, both in the classical meaning of the word and the modern vernacular but thank you for removing all doubt. You honest to God jumped in a thread knowing jack shit about anything and decided to throw your half arsed opinion around didn't you moron?

Vympel, who views the entire argument as silly even provided a helpful link which presents evidence of both parties grievances, did you even bother to click on it? Did you even bother to read it?

And why the fuck is it sooo important whether Alexander the Great was ethnically closer to Greeks or Macedonians from the state of Macedonia other than a pure academic matter.

And why the fuck shouldn't it be important? I mean it's just history right, so who cares? So Nazi holocaust deniers shouldn't be rebutted at every turn either, right? Or is that too close to when it happened so your own same rules don't apply? Fine. In two thousand years, should Nazi holocaust deniers be allowed to preach their brand of historical incorrect drivel without opposition because it's 'nothing more than a pure academic matter'?

Away with you moron.

[fgalkin]

This issue is a ridiculous spat between two utterly irrelevant countries that literally have nothing better to do. Yeah, Greece might have a better claim, so fucking what? It doesn't event remotely affect anyone outside those two countries.

And why the fuck shouldn't it be important? I mean it's just history right, so who cares? So Nazi holocaust deniers shouldn't be rebutted at every turn either, right? Or is that too close to when it happened so your own same rules don't apply? Fine. In two thousand years, should Nazi holocaust deniers be allowed to preach their brand of historical incorrect drivel without opposition because it's 'nothing more than a pure academic matter'?

Away with you moron.

Of course it's going to be a purely academic matter, in 2000 years there will be much more recent examples to draw example from. The reason why the Holocaust is important is because it happened in living memory, there are people still alive today who have seen it with their own eyes. 2000 years from now, it will have the same effect on daily life as the fall of Carthage.

As for revisionists winning, that will probably happen 200, not 2000 years from now. These things are quite common- look how Alexander of Macedon was turned into a hero.

(Although I must admit that the mental image of a future Austria arguing with a future Germany over the ownership of the great hero Adolf Hitler is a rather disturbing one).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I would love to know in what history class you were taught that the term 'Greek' and 'Macedonian' were mutually exclusive. And my advice to you is to ask for a refund for an educational system that has clearly failed.

I'm a little ignorant on this, but I was under the impression that the Northern Greece is largely Thracian in nature and the Macedonians were closer to Thrace than to Greece.

[Crown]

I would love to know in what history class you were taught that the term 'Greek' and 'Macedonian' were mutually exclusive. And my advice to you is to ask for a refund for an educational system that has clearly failed.

I'm a little ignorant on this, but I was under the impression that the Northern Greece is largely Thracian in nature and the Macedonians were closer to Thrace than to Greece.

I don't understand how that conclusion can be drawn when it was the conquering of the Thracians by Alexander led to their eventual complete Hellenisation (the process had already started with Thracian aristocracy using Classical Greek as their official language since their own had no written tradition).

Ancient Macedonian was long dead prior to Phillip II of Macedon, and what little evidence exists of it today cannot be used to show that it was it's own Indo-European language related to the Greek (like Thracian), or just an obscure dialect of Greek.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I don't understand how that conclusion can be drawn when it was the conquering of the Thracians by Alexander led to their eventual complete Hellenisation (the process had already started with Thracian aristocracy using Classical Greek as their official language since their own had no written tradition).

Ancient Macedonian was long dead prior to Phillip II of Macedon, and what little evidence exists of it today cannot be used to show that it was it's own Indo-European language related to the Greek (like Thracian), or just an obscure dialect of Greek.

So the Aristocracy of the Macedonians was Greek in nature? Alright.

[Crown]

Of course it's going to be a purely academic matter, in 2000 years there will be much more recent examples to draw example from. The reason why the Holocaust is important is because it happened in living memory, there are people still alive today who have seen it with their own eyes. 2000 years from now, it will have the same effect on daily life as the fall of Carthage.

No shit, there are people alive that saw the holocaust? Really?

As for revisionists winning, that will probably happen 200, not 2000 years from now. These things are quite common- look how Alexander of Macedon was turned into a hero.

And in what kind of world do we live in, where this is just 'ok'. Jesus titty fucking Christ.

(Although I must admit that the mental image of a future Austria arguing with a future Germany over the ownership of the great hero Adolf Hitler is a rather disturbing one).

Put down the pipe.

[Kane Starkiller]

Wow. There were signs that you're an idiot, both in the classical meaning of the word and the modern vernacular but thank you for removing all doubt. You honest to God jumped in a thread knowing jack shit about anything and decided to throw your half arsed opinion around didn't you moron?

Vympel, who views the entire argument as silly even provided a helpful link which presents evidence of both parties grievances, did you even bother to click on it? Did you even bother to read it?

What article? The one from wikipedia? Give me a break. You jumped into the thread directly responded to Vympels clam that not much is in a name and made some vague allusions to "decoupling" the Greeks from Macedonians without providing any evidence or reasoning or explaining what the fuck that has to do with the name of the state.

And why the fuck shouldn't it be important? I mean it's just history right, so who cares? So Nazi holocaust deniers shouldn't be rebutted at every turn either, right? Or is that too close to when it happened so your own same rules don't apply? Fine. In two thousand years, should Nazi holocaust deniers be allowed to preach their brand of historical incorrect drivel without opposition because it's 'nothing more than a pure academic matter'?

Away with you moron.

Holy fucking Christ he thinks that whether Macedonia the province or Macedonia the state is the real "inheritor" of Macedon Empire (which existed over 2000 years ago) is as important as whether or not 6 million people were slaughtered.
You do realize that one is a major moral issue and the other academic trivia right? You can make that distinction right?

[fgalkin]

As for revisionists winning, that will probably happen 200, not 2000 years from now. These things are quite common- look how Alexander of Macedon was turned into a hero.

And in what kind of world do we live in, where this is just 'ok'. Jesus titty fucking Christ.

A rather sad and scary one, I'd say. It's not "ok" but these things happen. Wars and genocides are not "ok" either, yet they happen with disturbing frequency.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Crown]

I don't understand how that conclusion can be drawn when it was the conquering of the Thracians by Alexander led to their eventual complete Hellenisation (the process had already started with Thracian aristocracy using Classical Greek as their official language since their own had no written tradition).

Ancient Macedonian was long dead prior to Phillip II of Macedon, and what little evidence exists of it today cannot be used to show that it was it's own Indo-European language related to the Greek (like Thracian), or just an obscure dialect of Greek.

So the Aristocracy of the Macedonians was Greek in nature? Alright.

Err, yes, um, what?


The Aristocracy of Thrace adopted Classical Greek as their official language (as I said), due to theirs having no written tradition (as I said).

Ancient Macedonian ceased to exist around 5th century BC, and was entirely extinct (as in no one, not even the plebs were known to speak it) by the Common Era. As such, there is no basis to derive any kind of hypothesis of whether Ancient Macedonian was; a Greek dialect, or Indo-European dialect related to Greek.

What we do know is that during Phillip's ascension and Alexander's conquest that Macedons were speaking Koine Greek (well Attic Greek really, as Koine evolved from Attic at around the time Alexander was off on his conquests).

I should clarify; Ancient Macedonian did have a written tradition and there are 2 examples; Pella Curse Tablet (written in Doric Greek) and the lexicon by Hesychius of Alexandria.

The Curse Tablet is written in Doric, but the lexicon lists 200 'Macedonian' words that differ from the Attic/Doric Greek.

[Crown]

What article? The one from wikipedia? Give me a break.

So you're engaging in a 'I don't accept the evidence posted just because' debating tactic? Fucking marvelous.

You jumped into the thread directly responded to Vympels clam that not much is in a name and made some vague allusions to "decoupling" the Greeks from Macedonians without providing any evidence or reasoning or explaining what the fuck that has to do with the name of the state.

The evidence is already in this thread. The posters have already said (Ancient) Macedonian != (Ancient) Greek, purely based on F.Y.O.R.M. choosing to call its self Macedonia. Nothing more.

Holy fucking Christ he thinks that whether Macedonia the province or Macedonia the state is the real "inheritor" of Macedon Empire (which existed over 2000 years ago) is as important as whether or not 6 million people were slaughtered.

No you dumb shit. But nice red herring.

You do realize that one is a major moral issue and the other academic trivia right? You can make that distinction right?

An analogy is used to demonstrate a point fuck face, not to fulfill the exact same criteria of an argument.

Your entire argument is this; it was 2000 years ago, who cares?

Well the point needs to be made; in 2000 years the Holocaust gets wiped off the history books, do we say 'it was 2000 years ago, so who cares', or do we try and have a little more intellectual integrity than that?

[Battlehymn Republic]

Dammit, 95% of the problems of the world would be solved if we gave the Balkans and the Middle East back to the Ottomans. Or at least the problems would be constrained to one entity.

[Kane Starkiller]

So you're engaging in a 'I don't accept the evidence posted just because' debating tactic? Fucking marvelous.

Really so I'm alone in not accepting the factual accuracy and objectivity of wikipedia? Not to mention it's a huge article so make your argument or shut the fuck up.

The evidence is already in this thread. The posters have already said (Ancient) Macedonian != (Ancient) Greek, purely based on F.Y.O.R.M. choosing to call its self Macedonia. Nothing more.

So it IS about the name isn't it? Make up your goddamn mind already. And so what if an average person doesn't realize that Macedon Empire existed not in state of Macedonia but 100 km to the south. Does it change anything? Does it hurt anyone. (Except Greek pride that is.)

An analogy is used to demonstrate a point fuck face, not to fulfill the exact same criteria of an argument.

Your entire argument is this; it was 2000 years ago, who cares?

Well the point needs to be made; in 2000 years the Holocaust gets wiped off the history books, do we say 'it was 2000 years ago, so who cares', or do we try and have a little more intellectual integrity than that?

What moral ramifications stem from the incorrect belief that an ancient Empire was spawned 100km to the south or north? Of course we should always cling to the truth but then again who is denying the truth? Is there some vast conspiracy or something? What analogy is there with people deliberately trying to deny that millions of people were killed and people confusing one Macedonia with the other?

Ultimately this is all about pride. You have oh so much pride in Greek history and you don't want Macedonia to come in and "pretend" that it is that famous Macedonia. The fact that it is all historic trivia that has no moral, legal or scientific ramifications on todays world seems to be completely lost on you. So todays Macedonia should run around with a clunky name like FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA just so as not to hurt your feelings. Honestly.