On Feathers and Fur?

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2008-03-03 01:41am

I have been on this board in a while.......

Watching Nova on PBS last week, the show showed that it appeared that all Raptor dinosaurs had feathers from well preserved fossils of them.

What I am curious is what is the oldest definitive proof of fur existing (ie fossilized signs of fur)?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-03-03 03:19am

I don't know but I'd imagine it would be VERY rare among fossils. Remember that feather imprints only turn up in fossils from rock formations made out of powder-fine sediment. IIRC, only one or two Archaeopteryx skeletons showed prints of feathers.

Fur would be more difficult since flying and semi-aquatic mammals tend to have much less fur than regular land mammals.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2008-03-03 10:52am

On the Nova episode, many of the dinosaurs preserved with feathers in Chinese deposits are non flying raptors.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-03-03 11:44am

Elfdart wrote:I don't know but I'd imagine it would be VERY rare among fossils. Remember that feather imprints only turn up in fossils from rock formations made out of powder-fine sediment. IIRC, only one or two Archaeopteryx skeletons showed prints of feathers.

Fur would be more difficult since flying and semi-aquatic mammals tend to have much less fur than regular land mammals.

Well, except for sea otters... and beavers...

Floods could result in extremely rare preservation of furry fossils, and it wouldn't surprise me if the oldest fur fossils were of comparable age to the oldest feather fossils.... but for some reason feathered dinosaurs* capture the press attention more than rat-like early mammals.

* I confess to some fascination with feathered dinos myself - I own three, two cockatiels and a green-cheeked conure.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2008-03-03 01:27pm

Speaking of Marine Mammals, I was sent this link on another discussion group:

http://www.crystalinks.com/fossilbeavers.html

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-03-03 11:33pm

Small animals in general don't preserve well, and since there aren't any large birds or mammals below the K-T boundary, fossilized instances of fur or feather bearing animals are unsurprisingly scarce. Many species of Mesozoic mammals, often rat-sized or smaller, are only known from their teeth, as they're most resistant to decomposition. The fossil record of early birds and mammals is spotty and full of holes for this reason.

It's suspected that fluffy down-type fathers (strictly for insulation) are as old as dinosaurs themselves, with quills and pinions arising much later (though still earlier than definitive proof of their existence, probably mid-Jurassic). Since tiny, warm-blooded animals really need insulating integument, you can safely bet that both mammals and dinosaurs were sporting fur as early as the late Triassic (~250 MYA).

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2008-03-06 02:10am

* I confess to some fascination with feathered dinos myself - I own three, two cockatiels and a green-cheeked conure.

Hey. I own a green-cheeked conure. 6 years old, presumably male, and the most DEMANDING creature I could think of. They are like 2 year olds with their insistence on attention, affection, obsessive clinging.

Love him to death though...So does my family. I used to own cockatiels a while ago. Beautiful birds, but I have to say this conure has so eclipsed them in temperament. They aren't kidding when they describe them as big-personality birds.

I was watching Jurassic Park movies the other night and I couldn't get over how similar the raptors were to my conure's demeanor, general physiology, etc. They really do seem to be related. Of course it's a movie, but if they were basing it on supposed fact then I'd easily see the similarities.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-03-06 07:24am

Justforfun000 wrote:Hey. I own a green-cheeked conure. 6 years old, presumably male, and the most DEMANDING creature I could think of. They are like 2 year olds with their insistence on attention, affection, obsessive clinging.

I want to change the name of ours from "Gryphon" to "Velcro" - yes, that's the personality.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-03-06 07:40am

Aren't feathers essentially greatly modified hair? And, if so, wouldn't fur have arisen first? Then given rise to downy feathers and so on?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2008-03-06 07:43am

I thought feathers were scales, actually. Although considering that all three are essentially keratin, the distinction may be moot.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-03-06 07:53am

Feathers are highly modified scales, even down feathers. Birds have no hair whatsoever.

Scales, feathers, and hair are, indeed, all forms of keratin.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-03-06 08:26am

Broomstick wrote:Feathers are highly modified scales, even down feathers. Birds have no hair whatsoever.

Scales, feathers, and hair are, indeed, all forms of keratin.

Ah, then they're seperate offshoots of the same thing then...

Well, now I know.

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2008-03-06 01:39pm

I imagine that hair traces would be even less likely to fossilize or be noticeable than feathers. An individual feather is wider and more prominent than a strand of hair. Unless a structure like a horse's tail landed on some really fine sediment and didn't get pressed up against the body, would we even be able to see it?

God Fearing Atheist · Post by **God Fearing Atheist** » 2008-03-06 03:13pm

Elfdart wrote:IIRC, only one or two Archaeopteryx skeletons showed prints of feathers.

All known Archaeopteryx specimens are preserved with feather impressions, though some can be difficult to make out.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-03-06 04:03pm

A quick search on Google brought up this page, with the following quote (you'll have to scroll down to see it on the website) with emphasis added:

Analyze coprolites from mammalian carnivores for evidence of hair, describe its morphology, and possible ecological significance using modern hair types for comparison. Develop the preparation technique for using scanning electron microscopes to study samples. The evolution of hair likely occurred well over 220 million years ago. The oldest known hair is about 137 million years old. What do casts of fossil hair tell us about an extinct mammal’s life history? Who evolved hair first and when? What was the first fur coat like?

Apparently, there are examples of fossil hair. I get the impression it most frequently shows up in fossilized animal shit and hairballs/owl pellet type things, but that's just a first impression.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2008-03-06 04:05pm

Broomstick Wrote:

I want to change the name of ours from "Gryphon" to "Velcro" - yes, that's the personality.

Does yours also go down your shirt? He stated that shortly after 'adopting' us, and the little bugger is so quick! As soon as I lean down over the sink or to tie my shoes, he's whipped down as fast as his little feet can go. He's such a nut.

I get a kick out of his mannerisms when he's freaked out or mad too. If I use any kind of device that buzzes like my shaver or electric toothbrush, he runs back and forth on my shoulders and gets his ruff up and it looks like a little helmet to me. Hehehe. I get such a kick out of it.