"Federation is communist" article misses the point

[Darth Onasi]

Even saying that replicators require raw materials, electrical power, and patterns seems like an over-generous statement. It's like saying that cars require only gasoline, tires, and a driver. I guess that huge business in automobile maintenance is just a mirage, right?

Why are we assuming that replicators are an utra low-maintenance device, like a clock radio? For all you know, they could be a very HIGH maintenance device. The fact that they usually work on a well-maintained starship doesn't exactly prove that you can stick one in the corner and have it run maintenance-free for the next 20 years. Nor does the fact that we know isolated colonies have them; for all you know, they're constantly maintaining them.

Well there is that Voyager episode with the Ferengi that had fallen through a wormhole and they were using a replicator to help keep their 'image' of being gods. That one at least seemed to just run and run.

Actually the people thought they were gods just by virtue of appearing there, they didn't really tax the replicator that much - only using it in the episode to produce ultra-cheap versions of the Rules of Acquisition.

[Sonnenburg]

Even if we assumed the replicator was a magic goodie box for a second, where does that leave things that cannot be manufactured that have worth? For example, I'd love to have a house with access to the lake through my big back yard - not because it's "a challenge," but because I like swimming, having a place for the kids, and a place to easily head in and out with the boat. My reasons are based on my own individual desires, and if I want to make it reality I'll buy it from someone. If there's no money, then how do I go about acquiring this? The replicator does nothing to solve my problem.

[Big Phil]

Even if we assumed the replicator was a magic goodie box for a second, where does that leave things that cannot be manufactured that have worth? For example, I'd love to have a house with access to the lake through my big back yard - not because it's "a challenge," but because I like swimming, having a place for the kids, and a place to easily head in and out with the boat. My reasons are based on my own individual desires, and if I want to make it reality I'll buy it from someone. If there's no money, then how do I go about acquiring this? The replicator does nothing to solve my problem.

Just keep replicating bigger replicators until you have one big enough to replicate the house on the lake...

[Batman]

Even if we assumed the replicator was a magic goodie box for a second, where does that leave things that cannot be manufactured that have worth? For example, I'd love to have a house with access to the lake through my big back yard - not because it's "a challenge," but because I like swimming, having a place for the kids, and a place to easily head in and out with the boat. My reasons are based on my own individual desires, and if I want to make it reality I'll buy it from someone. If there's no money, then how do I go about acquiring this? The replicator does nothing to solve my problem.

Just keep replicating bigger replicators until you have one big enough to replicate the house on the lake...

You either need to move the house to the lake somehow or keep making bigger replicators until you can replicate the LAKE, too
And I very much suspect the neighbours are bound to complain about having a lake where the city center used to be.

[Darth Onasi]

That brings up another thought, if the Federation has eliminated "need" and "want" because it has magic lamp replicators, how is living space allocated?
Do people just go wherever they feel and screw whoever comes late? "Sorry man, I got to the lake first. I hear there's still space in Gutterville though!".

A lot of it can be said to be propaganda, of course. Like in First Contact, when Lilly asks how much the E-E costs and Picard gives some flippant "We don't regard material things like you do" speech.
Which doesn't freaking answer her question. Or maybe the E-E was magicked out of thin air?

[Darth Wong]

Even saying that replicators require raw materials, electrical power, and patterns seems like an over-generous statement. It's like saying that cars require only gasoline, tires, and a driver. I guess that huge business in automobile maintenance is just a mirage, right?

Why are we assuming that replicators are an utra low-maintenance device, like a clock radio? For all you know, they could be a very HIGH maintenance device. The fact that they usually work on a well-maintained starship doesn't exactly prove that you can stick one in the corner and have it run maintenance-free for the next 20 years. Nor does the fact that we know isolated colonies have them; for all you know, they're constantly maintaining them.

Well there is that Voyager episode with the Ferengi that had fallen through a wormhole and they were using a replicator to help keep their 'image' of being gods. That one at least seemed to just run and run.

I love the way your mind works. Apparently, since you do not see them do any maintenance during that episode, their replicator must not require maintenance, eh? I look forward to more of these jewels of impeccable logic.

[Darth Wong]

That brings up another thought, if the Federation has eliminated "need" and "want" because it has magic lamp replicators, how is living space allocated?

The bigger question is why anyone works hard for anything. The idea that humans would work hard with no incentive whatsoever is so completely preposterous on its face that, while not technically impossible, it should be considered so absurd that virtually any other explanation is preferable.

[Vympel]

I like the idea of holodeck credits. You know - the dirty kind.

As for Replicators being a magic goodie box and things are no longer manufactured, that's crap, and we know that from DS9. When the Federation gifts CFI replicators (CFIs - class four industrial) to Cardassia, it's for the specific purpose of having them rebuild factories (and power plants). "Industrial" replicators don't act as industry - they just facilitate the development of industry. Obviously, goods are still produced the old fashioned way.

(ironically, this is from the DS9 episode the OP was referring to, he just forgot the specifics)

[Isolder74]

Even saying that replicators require raw materials, electrical power, and patterns seems like an over-generous statement. It's like saying that cars require only gasoline, tires, and a driver. I guess that huge business in automobile maintenance is just a mirage, right?

Why are we assuming that replicators are an utra low-maintenance device, like a clock radio? For all you know, they could be a very HIGH maintenance device. The fact that they usually work on a well-maintained starship doesn't exactly prove that you can stick one in the corner and have it run maintenance-free for the next 20 years. Nor does the fact that we know isolated colonies have them; for all you know, they're constantly maintaining them.

Well there is that Voyager episode with the Ferengi that had fallen through a wormhole and they were using a replicator to help keep their 'image' of being gods. That one at least seemed to just run and run.

I love the way your mind works. Apparently, since you do not see them do any maintenance during that episode, their replicator must not require maintenance, eh? I look forward to more of these jewels of impeccable logic.

That's not the problem. The problem is that they were obvouly not engineers of any kind so didn't have any skills to be performing any maintenance. If they weren't performing any repair work on the machine who was?

[Darth Wong]

That's not the problem. The problem is that they were obvouly not engineers of any kind so didn't have any skills to be performing any maintenance. If they weren't performing any repair work on the machine who was?

Since when the fuck do you have to be an engineer to maintain something? Do you need four years of university education to maintain an automobile?

[Isolder74]

That's not the problem. The problem is that they were obvouly not engineers of any kind so didn't have any skills to be performing any maintenance. If they weren't performing any repair work on the machine who was?

Since when the fuck do you have to be an engineer to maintain something? Do you need four years of university education to maintain an automobile?

You have to have at least some mechanical skills which they did not appear to have.

I know for one I don't know how to fix a car very well but I can take care of a computer. Unless your implying a Replicator takes no less know how to keep working then a toaster what is the problem?

BTW many new cars with their sophisticated computer control systems DO require a college degree to repair and replace parts because of how interconnected the systems are.

[Ted C]

You have to have at least some mechanical skills which they did not appear to have.

I know for one I don't know how to fix a car very well but I can take care of a computer. Unless your implying a Replicator takes no less know how to keep working then a toaster what is the problem?

BTW many new cars with their sophisticated computer control systems DO require a college degree to repair and replace parts because of how interconnected the systems are.

Given how important replicators probably are to Ferengi traders, I daresay they could learn enough from maintenance manuals available on their ship to do basic maintenance on one. I don't know much about car maintenance, either, but I can follow the instructions in a book easily enough.

[Isolder74]

You have to have at least some mechanical skills which they did not appear to have.

I know for one I don't know how to fix a car very well but I can take care of a computer. Unless your implying a Replicator takes no less know how to keep working then a toaster what is the problem?

BTW many new cars with their sophisticated computer control systems DO require a college degree to repair and replace parts because of how interconnected the systems are.

Given how important replicators probably are to Ferengi traders, I daresay they could learn enough from maintenance manuals available on their ship to do basic maintenance on one. I don't know much about car maintenance, either, but I can follow the instructions in a book easily enough.

That's fair enough but they would be dead in the water if even a minor part failed.

[Ted C]

Well there is that Voyager episode with the Ferengi that had fallen through a wormhole and they were using a replicator to help keep their 'image' of being gods. That one at least seemed to just run and run.

You know, the entire Ferengi economy refutes the notion that replicators instantly destroy capitalism, so whether those two boobs could maintain a replicator or it was just robust enough to last that long is irrelevant.

[Darth Onasi]

You have to have at least some mechanical skills which they did not appear to have.

I know for one I don't know how to fix a car very well but I can take care of a computer. Unless your implying a Replicator takes no less know how to keep working then a toaster what is the problem?

BTW many new cars with their sophisticated computer control systems DO require a college degree to repair and replace parts because of how interconnected the systems are.

Given how important replicators probably are to Ferengi traders, I daresay they could learn enough from maintenance manuals available on their ship to do basic maintenance on one. I don't know much about car maintenance, either, but I can follow the instructions in a book easily enough.

That's fair enough but they would be dead in the water if even a minor part failed.

They could possibly use spare parts from the shuttle, and again they simply didn't use the replicator much in the episode and I doubt they'd need it for many things anyway apart from clothing and incidental gadgets.
Everything else from food to gold was provided by the morons who worshipped them.

[wjs7744]

They could possibly use spare parts from the shuttle, and again they simply didn't use the replicator much in the episode and I doubt they'd need it for many things anyway apart from clothing and incidental gadgets.
Everything else from food to gold was provided by the morons who worshipped them.

Not to mention that if they were smart, they would just replicate the spares (obviously they would have to do this before it failed).

[Ted C]

They could possibly use spare parts from the shuttle, and again they simply didn't use the replicator much in the episode and I doubt they'd need it for many things anyway apart from clothing and incidental gadgets.

Everything else from food to gold was provided by the morons who worshipped them.

Actually, if I were stranded with a replicator, the first thing I would do would be replicate spare parts for it (to the extent that it was possible).

Ninja'd

[Darth Onasi]

Which begs the question, can replicators replicate a replicator?

[Isolder74]

They could possibly use spare parts from the shuttle, and again they simply didn't use the replicator much in the episode and I doubt they'd need it for many things anyway apart from clothing and incidental gadgets.
Everything else from food to gold was provided by the morons who worshipped them.

Not to mention that if they were smart, they would just replicate the spares (obviously they would have to do this before it failed).

and hope they replicated the right part. It would be funny to replicate the part they think is failing and it turns out to be a different one that does.

[Ted C]

Which begs the question, can replicators replicate a replicator?

That would depend entirely on whether any of the components are on the "unreplicatable list". If not, and the correct feedstock is available, it should be possible to replicate any part small enough to fit in the replicators dispenser cavity. If all of them will fit, then the answer should be yes. A large replicator might even be able to produce a smaller replicator whole.

[Ted C]

I wonder if replicated parts would be more prone to failure than manufacture parts. Replicated materials do have "single bit errors" after all. I would guess that if you serially replicated something, you would probably end up with an unusable version after some of replications, much as photocopies lose resolution if you keep making copies of copies.

[wjs7744]

Which begs the question, can replicators replicate a replicator?

Yes. Otherwise those self-replicating mines from DS9 would be a bit of a dead end, no? That episode also reveals that cloaking devices are also replicatable.

and hope they replicated the right part. It would be funny to replicate the part they think is failing and it turns out to be a different one that does.

Well, I was thinking more on the lines of replicating spares of everything. Theoretically, they could keep on going either for as long as they had a power source, by cannabalising their ship for raw materials, and also using the parts that broke (after replacing them, of course), or until the 'single-bit errors' stopped them. This is all of course contingent on them having the replicator pattern for another replicator, naturally.

[Darth Wong]

That's fair enough but they would be dead in the water if even a minor part failed.

And you know that ... how? How do you know they didn't have a half-dozen of the things in their cargo hold, for use in bartering? A portable replicator wouldn't be standard equipment in a shuttle anyway; if the spacecraft had a replicator, it would probably be built into the interior.

And of course, it stands to reason that they would use it sparingly. If you were stranded in the past with an automobile, your first instinct would be to conserve fuel.

[Ted C]

And of course, it stands to reason that they would use it sparingly. If you were stranded in the past with an automobile, your first instinct would be to conserve fuel.

Likewise, if you were stranded with a firearm, your first rational consideration would be conserving ammunition. Anytime you've got a limited resource in a dangerous situation, you want to make sure you only use that resource when you have to.

[Oskuro]

If you were stranded in the past with an automobile, your first instinct would be to conserve fuel.

Nonsense! It would be to pull out the Chemistry manual from the trunk and turn the car into a battle tank! And make explosives! And craft a replacement cybernetic hand from a medieval gauntlet! And.... and... Ok you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick!


Ok, sorry, couldn't resist..... After all, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand things with alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures....


Ok, ok, I'm done with the quotes!


Now, a bit more on topic, replicators always felt to me like a glorified mixer, microwave and expresso machine hybrid. You put things in, they come out in another more palatable shape, but they can't really do everything. And I really wouldn't want one of those things to malfunction... I mean, a mixer will only splash the whole mess around... But a replicator could get a few elements wrong, and end up churning out a beautiful chunk of radiating uranium instead of your tuna sandwich.