The silly Macedonia tiff

[Crown]

Really so I'm alone in not accepting the factual accuracy and objectivity of wikipedia?

The accuracy of the article has not in any way shape or form been rebutted by you. Don't feel like it? Then bite me.

Not to mention it's a huge article so make your argument or shut the fuck up.

Make my point? Make my point imbecile? I made my point in my very first fucking post, the one paragraph you danced around at every fucking opportunity;

The idea that the government of Skopje wants to identify themselves as 'Macedonian' is in-and-of-itself not too surprising, nor troubling. However the idea (and indeed their own propaganda) that you can actually separate the term 'Macedonian' from 'Greek' that is of massive concern. The fact so many morons above me have actually fallen for the intellectual laziness not to question this modern day theft of identity just proves that Greece is not being unreasonable in its objections, and neither are her fears unfounded. Just read above for crying out loud.

Why did I even bother? You obviously failed to read and comprehend it the first time around, or you just skipped it because your a dishonest cunt.

So it IS about the name isn't it? Make up your goddamn mind already. And so what if an average person doesn't realize that Macedon Empire existed not in state of Macedonia but 100 km to the south. Does it change anything? Does it hurt anyone. (Except Greek pride that is.)

Is it any less wrong?

What moral ramifications stem from the incorrect belief that an ancient Empire was spawned 100km to the south or north? Of course we should always cling to the truth but then again who is denying the truth? Is there some vast conspiracy or something? What analogy is there with people deliberately trying to deny that millions of people were killed and people confusing one Macedonia with the other?

Yes, but in 2,000 years, it would have been 2,000 years ago, so what does it matter, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?

Seriously dipshit this is your argument (as pathetic as it is), weaseling out of it with the 'lol moral card' is intellectually dishonest. Both the analogy and your irrelevant disregard for identity theft rely on one pertinent 'fact'; if it was 2,000 years ago, what does it matter?

Ultimately this is all about pride. You have oh so much pride in Greek history and you don't want Macedonia to come in and "pretend" that it is that famous Macedonia. The fact that it is all historic trivia that has no moral, legal or scientific ramifications on todays world seems to be completely lost on you. So todays Macedonia should run around with a clunky name like FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA just so as not to hurt your feelings. Honestly.

Jesus you're one dumb fuck. Seriously, I'm trying to picture what kind of moron can actually make the argument of 2,000 years ago, what does it matter? Yes it's wrong, what does it matter? And the 'oh so clever' this is all about your pride, what does it matter?

If it matters so little; stay out of the thread.

[Kane Starkiller]

The accuracy of the article has not in any way shape or form been rebutted by you. Don't feel like it? Then bite me.

You've got it backwards. The writers of the article first must establish their credentials.

The idea that the government of Skopje wants to identify themselves as 'Macedonian' is in-and-of-itself not too surprising, nor troubling. However the idea (and indeed their own propaganda) that you can actually separate the term 'Macedonian' from 'Greek' that is of massive concern. The fact so many morons above me have actually fallen for the intellectual laziness not to question this modern day theft of identity just proves that Greece is not being unreasonable in its objections, and neither are her fears unfounded. Just read above for crying out loud.

All these confusions arose because of the usage of the same name and because people didn't feel like digging deeper into it? So what?
So you are saying that "Macedon Empire" is somehow your identity? Were you riding with Alexander the Great during his conquests? No. Did you earn your Macedonian name? No it was given to you. So where the fuck do you get off claiming that people who lived in or near the historic Macedon region for centuries and called themselves Macedoinans long before you were born now suddenly don't have the right to call themselves Macedonians? And that they are somehow stealing from you. Get the fuck over yourself.

Is it any less wrong?

Of course. Hurt pride is not much of an issue.

Yes, but in 2,000 years, it would have been 2,000 years ago, so what does it matter, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?

Seriously dipshit this is your argument (as pathetic as it is), weaseling out of it with the 'lol moral card' is intellectually dishonest. Both the analogy and your irrelevant disregard for identity theft rely on one pertinent 'fact'; if it was 2,000 years ago, what does it matter?

Hey dipshit ever heard of statute of limitations? As time goes by things become less important. And guess what Macedon Empire founding trivia will age sooner than mass killings.

[Ritterin Sophia]

This is about as irrelevant as the US Citizens who whine about people in South America calling themselves American. They're not analogous in the sense that either of them is right or wrong (someone clearly is though), but the complete and utter waste of time and energy over something so trivial.

[StarshipTitanic]

This argument reminds me of when Byzantine emperors would throw temper tantrums when Western diplomats who called them "Emperor of the Greeks" rather than "Emperor of the Romans." Oh no, a bunch of Slavs are usurping Macedonian heritage! So are the modern Greeks of today, who are made up the descendents of Slav settlers and Hellenized Anatolians resettled in the Balkans a thousand years ago.

[Crown]

You've got it backwards. The writers of the article first must establish their credentials.

What 'credentials' cunt rag? The Article provides sourced arguments from BOTH sides, and does so without an editorial bias. My God, you are one dumb motherfucker. All it does is provide you with a helpful 'cheat sheet' of what both parties are arguing about.

All these confusions arose because of the usage of the same name and because people didn't feel like digging deeper into it? So what?
So you are saying that "Macedon Empire" is somehow your identity? Were you riding with Alexander the Great during his conquests? No. Did you earn your Macedonian name? No it was given to you. So where the fuck do you get off claiming that people who lived in or near the historic Macedon region for centuries and called themselves Macedoinans long before you were born now suddenly don't have the right to call themselves Macedonians? And that they are somehow stealing from you. Get the fuck over yourself.

Why don't you fuck yourself with your red herrings dipshit. I've already stated that the fact that they want to associate themselves as Macedonians in neither surprising nor troubling. The fact that they are seeking to make it Macedonian != Greek is a huge problem to the 2.5 million Greeks (of which I am one off) who identify themselves as Macedonians.

Putting a qualifier in their official title 'Slav Macedonia', 'Skopje Macedonian', etc is more than acceptable to the moderate Greeks, but these fuckers won't even do that! Worse, their own official propaganda makes out that the title Macedonian (along with your *fap, fap Alexander fap fap* red herring) is theirs and no one else's.

Here's a taste of their propaganda which shows that their own borders are insufficient to what 'true' or 'greater' Macedonia should be;

Macedonian soldiers headed by Jane Sandanski from the organization VMRO took part in the revolution. After the revolution, the Ottoman Empire was taken over by the Young Turks (one of their leaders was Mustafa Kemal Attaturk10 who managed to establish the Republic of Turkey after the First World War). The newly formed Parliament of Turkey included in its composition two Macedonians as representatives of Macedonia. In this period, Macedonia was granted the right to national Macedonian self organizing, more precisely autonomy.

However, in 1912 and 1913 three Balkan states – Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece, waged the Balkan wars intending to conquer and divide ethnic Macedonia between them. The Balkan Wars between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia ended with the treaty of Bucharest in 1913, with which, in spite of the protests of the Macedonians, ethnic Macedonia was divided into three parts. 50% of Macedonian territory fell under the Kingdom of Greece11, 39% under the Kingdom of Serbia (later Kingdom of Yugoslavia)12 and 10% under the Kingdom of Bulgaria. 1% of Macedonian territory went to Albania.

Gee dumb fuck, what now? There were no 'Greek' Macedonians in that era, just (these so called) Macedonians living in area. Macedonians, that didn't call themselves Macedonians until 1944? Give me a fucking break.

]Of course. Hurt pride is not much of an issue.

Moron.

Hey dipshit ever heard of statute of limitations?

Yes I have cunt rag, it's a legal term 'that sets forth the maximum period of time, after certain events, that legal proceedings based on those events may be initiated'. What's this got to do with the price of fish you retarded waste of a sperm?

As time goes by things become less important. And guess what Macedon Empire founding trivia will age sooner than mass killings.

You think so? The entire elimination of one civilisation by another (fgalkin provides the excellent example of Carthage) have occurred plenty of times in history (hint for the mentally challenged, this even happened later than Phillip II conquering all of Greece), the only thing stopping us from changing the history books to show that it never happened is intellectual integrity.

Not a morality to a people who don't exist. Not a 'statute of limitations' (ROFLMAO). Not because there are any people alive today who would object. Simply because it would be wrong to do so. Even though, to us, today, it is nothing more than 'a pure academic matter'.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Except that you're conveniently ignoring the existence of IMRO, you stupid dipshit. The INTERNAL MACEDONIAN REVOLUTIONARY ORGANIZATION, formed in 1893. "Didn't call themselves Macedonians until 1940" my ass. Get off your fucking nationalistic horse.

[Crown]

Except that you're conveniently ignoring the existence of IMRO, you stupid dipshit. The INTERNAL MACEDONIAN REVOLUTIONARY ORGANIZATION, formed in 1893. "Didn't call themselves Macedonians until 1940" my ass. Get off your fucking nationalistic horse.

You mean the Bulgarian 'puppet' revolutionaries that wanted to unite large portions of 'Macedonia' with Bulgaria?

Yeah, how silly of me to forget it;

Ivan Hadzhinikolov in his memoirs underlines the five basic principles of the MRO's foundation:

1. The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.
2. Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.
3. The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of Macedonia.
4. The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and
5. From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.[2]

Hristo Tatarchev.
Hristo Tatarchev.

According to Dr. Hristo Tatarchev:

We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn't accept the position for "direct joining to Bulgaria" because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people. The region of Adrianople, as far as I remember, didn't take part in our program, and I think the idea to add it to the autonomous Macedonia came later.[3]

Wiki (don't tell Kane) source

Which brings me to another point about these so called 'Macedonians'; they want their own language to be recognised as Macedonian, then why the fuck do they speak a derivative (and a fairly recent one of that) of Bulgarian? Strange no?

[Kane Starkiller]

What 'credentials' cunt rag? The Article provides sourced arguments from BOTH sides, and does so without an editorial bias. My God, you are one dumb motherfucker. All it does is provide you with a helpful 'cheat sheet' of what both parties are arguing about.

And it's irrelevant. Historical concernes-basically Greeks claiming they have a copyright on the name Macedonian, Self determination-more of the same.
Territorial concernes-total bullshit since Macedonia signed that it has no pretensions on Greek territory not to mention being a small country with 2 million people and with 25% Albanian minority.

Why don't you fuck yourself with your red herrings dipshit. I've already stated that the fact that they want to associate themselves as Macedonians in neither surprising nor troubling. The fact that they are seeking to make it Macedonian != Greek is a huge problem to the 2.5 million Greeks (of which I am one off) who identify themselves as Macedonians.

How is it a huge problem? Please elaborate, what problems do you face. Do you get beat up for being Greek Macedonian? Did you loose your job? What?

Putting a qualifier in their official title 'Slav Macedonia', 'Skopje Macedonian', etc is more than acceptable to the moderate Greeks, but these fuckers won't even do that! Worse, their own official propaganda makes out that the title Macedonian (along with your *fap, fap Alexander fap fap* red herring) is theirs and no one else's.

Well aren't these moderate Greeks ever so kind. Why don't they call themselves Greek Macedonians instead?

Here's a taste of their propaganda which shows that their own borders are insufficient to what 'true' or 'greater' Macedonia should be;
SNIP EMBASSY TEXT
Gee dumb fuck, what now? There were no 'Greek' Macedonians in that era, just (these so called) Macedonians living in area. Macedonians, that didn't call themselves Macedonians until 1944? Give me a fucking break.

They did call themselves Macedonians and in 1912 in large parts of Greece Bulgarians were the majority. It is blurry history of the Balkans but there sure as fuck wasn't a continuous settlement of ancient Macedonians.

Of course. Hurt pride is not much of an issue.

Moron.

Yes I have cunt rag, it's a legal term 'that sets forth the maximum period of time, after certain events, that legal proceedings based on those events may be initiated'. What's this got to do with the price of fish you retarded waste of a sperm?

I see you will just keep acting stupid. It was a demonstration of how even criminal acts become less important with the passage of time let alone historic trivia.

You think so? The entire elimination of one civilisation by another (fgalkin provides the excellent example of Carthage) have occurred plenty of times in history (hint for the mentally challenged, this even happened later than Phillip II conquering all of Greece), the only thing stopping us from changing the history books to show that it never happened is intellectual integrity.

Not a morality to a people who don't exist. Not a 'statute of limitations' (ROFLMAO). Not because there are any people alive today who would object. Simply because it would be wrong to do so. Even though, to us, today, it is nothing more than 'a pure academic matter'.

Gotta love the way you translate my statement that "There is no harm to the society if founding trivia of ancient Macedon is lost" into "Let's change the historic data just for the hell of it."


In case you haven't notice you pompous asshole Greece is giving Macedonia REAL WORLD trouble over this bullshit:BBC LINK

Greece rejects Macedonia Nato bid
Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis
Ms Bakoyannis hoped there was still time to reach a compromise
Greece has said it cannot support Macedonia's bid to join Nato, because of an unresolved dispute over its Balkan neighbour's name.

See this dipshit? Because of some irrelevant historic trivia Greek government is refusing to admit Macedonia to NATO. That is the issue. No one is saying that we should change ancient history data just because but if ancient history trivia is cause enough to give your neighbour such grievance then you're fucked up.

[Kane Starkiller]

You mean the Bulgarian 'puppet' revolutionaries that wanted to unite large portions of 'Macedonia' with Bulgaria?

Who the fuck cares? The point is that they started calling themselves Macedonians back then and now it is their name given to them by their fathers just as you have been given yours.

[Darth Wong]

Crown, you keep calling them F.Y.R.O.M., which stands for "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". So even you refer to them by a name which incorporates "Macedonia", do you not? All they're doing is ditching the long-winded preamble.

[StarshipTitanic]

Crown, you keep calling them F.Y.R.O.M., which stands for "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". So even you refer to them by a name which incorporates "Macedonia", do you not? All they're doing is ditching the long-winded preamble.

Don't think of "former" as part of the name, but as a description of "Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". The implication is that the state was once called "Republic of Macedonia" within Yugoslavia, but no longer holds or claims the name. That's why Crown, being a nationalist shithead, can use FYROM without gagging on his vitriol.

[Simplicius]

The "Republic of Macedonia" part of the name has been consistent since 1945. As I read it, "Former Yugoslav" describes the Republic of Macedonia, in the same way that "Socialist" or "People's" did previously. This is obviously different than StarshipTitanic's interpretation of Crown's understanding, but it strikes me as sensible. Then, I'm not foolish enough to get my shorts wound up about what a country calls itself.

[Crown]

I see you will just keep acting stupid. It was a demonstration of how even criminal acts become less important with the passage of time let alone historic trivia.

Then when I asked you if in 2,000 years the Holocaust gets revised in the history books did you not stick to your above quote, rather than try and shift it to; 'that's entirely different'? Don't pretend you didn't do that, you know full well you did.

So are you consistant with your argument of; so long ago, what difference does it make, or not?

If you are consistant on your stance (note; to date you've been anything but) then, discussion over. I can't convince you otherwise, if you're not, you're just playing a shell game, and also discussion over since I have no energy to chase shifting goal posts.

Who the fuck cares? The point is that they started calling themselves Macedonians back then and now it is their name given to them by their fathers just as you have been given yours.

While I recognise the somewhat dishonesty of only replying to one point of your previous post, and then replying to this in full, I just have to say this; how dumb are you that you are unable to read the evidence presented. The founders of the IMRO openly state that they had to choose a name and a policy that would be as far removed from Bulgaria as possible (i.e. an independant Macedonian state) due to socio-political realities, when they after joining Bulgaria the whole time?

Seriously, buy your self a clue.

Crown, you keep calling them F.Y.R.O.M., which stands for "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". So even you refer to them by a name which incorporates "Macedonia", do you not? All they're doing is ditching the long-winded preamble.

I'm not a nationalist zealot, nor am I racist purist. I have no problem if they decide to call themselves New Macedonia, Slavic Macednoia, Upper Macedonia, or any 'X' Macedonia.

[The Yosemite Bear]

there has to be something somewhere in the laws about those that choose to do lots of historical re-writting (China, The Church, Bush, etc) and being confronted with historical accuracy...

[Adrian Laguna]

Hey, do the Greeks still pronounce it old style with a hard c? What about the (F.Y.R.) Macedonian's themselves? Do they pronounce it old style or do they say it the same way westerners do it?

[Tiriol]

I have some deep-seated suspicion that if Sweden would suddenly start pestering Finland about its name due to historical reasons (or Russia, for that matter), it would be met with open hostility on all levels of Finnish society. I cannot see WHY Macedonia should bow down to demands about its name when the reason for such a change apparently comes from the time of Alexander the Great. By that reasoning Russia and Sweden would have a lot more reason to demand Finland to change its name.

[Kane Starkiller]

Then when I asked you if in 2,000 years the Holocaust gets revised in the history books did you not stick to your above quote, rather than try and shift it to; 'that's entirely different'? Don't pretend you didn't do that, you know full well you did.

So are you consistant with your argument of; so long ago, what difference does it make, or not?

If you are consistant on your stance (note; to date you've been anything but) then, discussion over. I can't convince you otherwise, if you're not, you're just playing a shell game, and also discussion over since I have no energy to chase shifting goal posts.

Are you honestly that goddamned stupid that you can't comprehend that not all information is equally worth keeping? Are you honestly that goddamned stupid you can't comprehend that information importance will decline depending on how relevant it is to the world at a given time? Are you that dishonest that you'll keep pretending I actually advocated changing the historic data rather than saying it's not important?

While I recognise the somewhat dishonesty of only replying to one point of your previous post, and then replying to this in full, I just have to say this; how dumb are you that you are unable to read the evidence presented. The founders of the IMRO openly state that they had to choose a name and a policy that would be as far removed from Bulgaria as possible (i.e. an independant Macedonian state) due to socio-political realities, when they after joining Bulgaria the whole time?

Seriously, buy your self a clue.

Let me repeat myself since you didn't catch it the first time: WHO GIVES A FUCK? Whether they started calling themselves Macedonians as part of some geopolitical scheme by the powers that be or whether Zeus himself came down from Mount Olympus and gave them that name is COMPLETELY FUCKING IRRELEVANT. The point, which you keep missing, is that they called themselves Macedonians for several generations. It is a name, they don't have to justify it. They didn't earn it any more or less then you did, they were born with it.
As I said this all thing boils down to current Greek goverment and certain members of Greek nation thinking they have a copyright to an ancient name.

[Kane Starkiller]

Hey, do the Greeks still pronounce it old style with a hard c? What about the (F.Y.R.) Macedonian's themselves? Do they pronounce it old style or do they say it the same way westerners do it?

Don't know about Greece but in Macedonia it's pronounced Makedoniya.

[StarshipTitanic]

I'm not a nationalist zealot, nor am I racist purist. I have no problem if they decide to call themselves New Macedonia, Slavic Macednoia, Upper Macedonia, or any 'X' Macedonia.

And then Greece will rename their portion of Macedonia to "Lower Greek Aegean Macedonia," yes? If no, why not?

[xerex]

Funny how the United States had no problem with the Former Soviet Republic of Georgia calling itself Georgia when it declared independence.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not a nationalist zealot, nor am I racist purist. I have no problem if they decide to call themselves New Macedonia, Slavic Macednoia, Upper Macedonia, or any 'X' Macedonia.

Kind of like the way the USA should call itself "Central North America" instead of just "America"? I can see how one might find that sort of hubris annoying, but not so much that it would be reasonable to launch an international incident over it.

[white_rabbit]

Theres been a two page spread article in the Times for the past week or so on this, the gist of which is that the ROM and Greece have not only signed treaties and various accords where the ROM is recognised, but have gotten on very well over the past few years.

Apparently the ROM has even stated in some treaty or some such that they have no intentions towards the section of greece described as Macedonia, and give up any right to do so.

Why the sudden bitchfest about them entering the EU ?

[Pelranius]

It's a great vote getter for attention whore politicians.

No politician worthy of the name would pass up such an easy electoral free lunch.