Examples of Cruel & absurd laws from the Bible requested

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2008-03-06 02:15pm

I got a fundie claiming that how a society living by the laws of the Bible would be oh so sweet (less crime, healthier & longer life,...)

Does anyone got some exact KJV Bible quotes I can use as a reference (like stoning children, something about wearing multicoloured clothes, eating shrimp, how gays should be treated, how nonbelievers should be treated, etc..)? I've seen him quoting the Bible in the past so I'm interested in what his response will be

wjs7744 · Post by **wjs7744** » 2008-03-06 02:21pm

Dude, Mike has an entire website devoted to this subject. This might be a good place to start.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-03-06 02:26pm

Skeptics Annotated Bible is precisely what you need.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-03-06 02:38pm

Start in Exodus and read the rest of the Pentateuch. It's dry as hell, but if you can pull out the juicy tidbits you'll have a quite effective weapon.

BountyHunterSAx · Post by **BountyHunterSAx** » 2008-03-06 06:27pm

Then get ready to be told - by that same hardliner Christian - that the old testament doesn't count...and that they just tack it in to each new bible for, what kicks?

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-03-06 06:49pm

BountyHunterSAx wrote:Then get ready to be told - by that same hardliner Christian - that the old testament doesn't count...and that they just tack it in to each new bible for, what kicks?

Then you just respond back with the verse from the Gospels where Jesus says all the laws still apply.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2008-03-06 07:14pm

IIRC, there's plenty of pretty awful stuff in Paul as well.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-03-06 08:31pm

BountyHunterSAx wrote:Then get ready to be told - by that same hardliner Christian - that the old testament doesn't count...and that they just tack it in to each new bible for, what kicks?

Easily rebuked. "So the ten commandments don't apply anymore? Cool!"

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-03-06 08:35pm

BountyHunterSAx wrote:Then get ready to be told - by that same hardliner Christian - that the old testament doesn't count...and that they just tack it in to each new bible for, what kicks?

I wish people wouldn't respond to this argument by arguing that it still counts, and then quoting the New Testament to prove it. I have learned that this is just playing directly into the fundie's hands. Fundies spend much of their lives learning how to wrangle with Scripture in order to make it say whatever they want it to say.

The better response is to point out that a perfectly moral god would never have dictated such horrible rules in the first place. Therefore, the Old Testament, even if its rules no longer apply, still serves as an indictment of the supposedly superior moral authority of God. It doesn't matter whether we are still expected to obey those laws; the point is that God said they were good laws, which means that God himself has no grasp of morality.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-03-07 07:30am

Darth Wong wrote:I wish people wouldn't respond to this argument by arguing that it still counts, and then quoting the New Testament to prove it. I have learned that this is just playing directly into the fundie's hands. Fundies spend much of their lives learning how to wrangle with Scripture in order to make it say whatever they want it to say.

The better response is to point out that a perfectly moral god would never have dictated such horrible rules in the first place. Therefore, the Old Testament, even if its rules no longer apply, still serves as an indictment of the supposedly superior moral authority of God. It doesn't matter whether we are still expected to obey those laws; the point is that God said they were good laws, which means that God himself has no grasp of morality.

What about using it as a segway into how immoral Jesus was? Something along the lines of "Jesus said the rules still apply so Jesus supports murdering your children, etc." and then using that to segway back into all the bad things attributed to him in the Gospels that give lie to his supposedly peaceful teachings. The passage about setting brother against brother for example?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-03-07 07:46am

BountyHunterSAx wrote:Then get ready to be told - by that same hardliner Christian - that the old testament doesn't count

Either that, or he will defend all that nasty shit as moral exactly because God said it. In that case, you need to be ready to get into a discussion about the source of morality: if it is not an absolute law laid down by God, then what? If there are no eternal consequences for wrongdoing, then what? That sort of thing. Remember that to this sort of person, all morality is obedience to a higher authority.

Darth Onasi · Post by **Darth Onasi** » 2008-03-07 08:57am

Darth Wong wrote:The better response is to point out that a perfectly moral god would never have dictated such horrible rules in the first place. Therefore, the Old Testament, even if its rules no longer apply, still serves as an indictment of the supposedly superior moral authority of God. It doesn't matter whether we are still expected to obey those laws; the point is that God said they were good laws, which means that God himself has no grasp of morality.

Of course there's always a chance that they'll resort to saying that God defines morality, and anything God does is moral because he's God even if he's inconsistent and psychotic.
Then again somebody who's that far gone probably isn't worth arguing with.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-03-07 09:49am

Darth Onasi wrote:Of course there's always a chance that they'll resort to saying that God defines morality, and anything God does is moral because he's God even if he's inconsistent and psychotic.
Then again somebody who's that far gone probably isn't worth arguing with.

As Darth Wong is so fond of pointing out, it's not about convincing the ones that far gone, it's about convincing the fence sitters, or the ones that have never really thought about it.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-03-07 12:47pm

BountyHunterSAx wrote:Then get ready to be told - by that same hardliner Christian - that the old testament doesn't count...and that they just tack it in to each new bible for, what kicks?

Actually yes.

If you actually read through the OT (or a bit of jewish theology for that matter) you will find two things.

None of the stuff in the OT applies to non-jews. Only the Noahide covenant (which basically means treat other people well and dont worship graven images) applies to non-jews. So all that stuff about the ten commandments, sin, even jesus only applies to jews.

The second bit is that Jesus does not meet the messianic prophecies laid out in the OT. Most especially the ones about all the jews being back in Israel and the temple being rebuilt.

So yes, they literally do add it (and jesus) for kicks. They basically started their own religion, lied, and said they were an offshoot of Judiasm