Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

[MKSheppard]

the Smithsonian parting with Enola Gay.

I believe Enola Gay would simply be too much work to get flyable again; IIRC, the restoration was simply cosmetic in many parts.

[KlavoHunter]

If you're actually serious about Enola Gay and Bockscar being brought out of retirement, they should be the first ones to drop nuclear weapons on Dis.

[Alferd Packer]

So, now that we've brought up the subject of Insurgency leaders popping up and making nice with the US and other Allied forces in the War on Damnation...

... what's the status of Osama? Is he going to pop up and say "Hi, guys!"?

And when he does, will we kill him anyways?

"We need you over in Hell, fighting with the insurgency." *BLAM BLAM BLAM*

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That's a pretty neat summary of the situation. With our present Army, we've got the new M16A6/M4A5 as standard rifles. We are likely to have the new Garands as longer-range rifles - probably one or two per squad to give a 100 meters plus hitting capability that we gave up going to the .50 beowulf.

However, that Army won't be around forever. It's likely that in the longer term, the existing US formations will become fire brigade units used where firepower and agility are needed while a new mass Army will be formed (essentially for home defense etc etc etc). Any M16 derivative is bad news there since its a tricky weapon that needs skilled and loving care. Remember, its going to people who have never touched a gun before. A Garand doesn't need such refined care so I'm going with the improved Garand suggested for that role.

Two bits of evidence for that approach. One is the way the Russian Army reverted from the SVT semi-auto rifle to the Mozzy-Nag when WW2 broke out. The other is the conversion of many Siamese Mausers to chamber 45-70 ammunition because the action was strong enough to take it.

When discussing things like this, remember the Iron Law of Mobilization. You go with what you've got. It doesn't matter if weapon B is just a little bit better than weapon A; if Weapon A is in production and B isn't, you go with A.

The Garand is still in production - so that's OK. The round is in production, that's OK. So its viable.

By the way, on the magazine issue, the Garand was originally designed with a detachable magazine and the Army insisted it be changed to a clip-loading system - which was done very quickly. So, making the change to a detachable magazine should be no big deal.

Alright, then. I hereby submit for formalized standards, the M1E15 Garand: 24 inch barrel, fixed stock, 14-round detachable magazine, chambered for .458 winchester magnum. We have the gun, we have the round, we can make it a magazine rifle with casual ease, the round is the same overall length is the .30-06, bringing the modifications down to an absolute minimum, and the magazine gives us the maximum possible capacity without screwing up the ergonomics, and though not being an existing size, magazines can be built with brutal simplicity. The standard service round will of course be 500 grain hollow point, which is already available from Hornady, the loading providing a velocity of 2,260fps for the bullet.

Sound good?

[Starglider]

If you're actually serious about Enola Gay and Bockscar being brought out of retirement, they should be the first ones to drop nuclear weapons on Dis.

Though there is fair a amount of 'done just for the awesome' in this fic, none of it completely discards plausibility and the overall tone still seems to be aiming for realism. The only possible justification for using refurbished antiques in the first strike instead of the vastly superior and already operational contemporary bombers would be some aspect of hell that messes up jet engines but not piston engines. Frankly the reverse seems much more likely to be true, particularly for anything approaching a conventional air filter.

The stated use for these airframes makes much more sense - testing to destruction to find out what happens if you try to operate aircraft in a hell-like environment. You want to use the least valuable, lowest readiness airframes you can for this.

[Stuart]

Alright, then. I hereby submit for formalized standards, the M1E15 Garand: 24 inch barrel, fixed stock, 14-round detachable magazine, chambered for .458 winchester magnum. We have the gun, we have the round, we can make it a magazine rifle with casual ease, the round is the same overall length is the .30-06, bringing the modifications down to an absolute minimum, and the magazine gives us the maximum possible capacity without screwing up the ergonomics, and though not being an existing size, magazines can be built with brutal simplicity. The standard service round will of course be 500 grain hollow point, which is already available from Hornady, the loading providing a velocity of 2,260fps for the bullet.

THUMP, APPROVED.

Call Springfield Armory, place the order.........

[Stuart]

Though there is fair a amount of 'done just for the awesome' in this fic, none of it completely discards plausibility and the overall tone still seems to be aiming for realism. The only possible justification for using refurbished antiques in the first strike instead of the vastly superior and already operational contemporary bombers would be some aspect of hell that messes up jet engines but not piston engines. Frankly the reverse seems much more likely to be true, particularly for anything approaching a conventional air filter. The stated use for these airframes makes much more sense - testing to destruction to find out what happens if you try to operate aircraft in a hell-like environment. You want to use the least valuable, lowest readiness airframes you can for this.

True, at the moment viable but obsolete airframes are best used for testing so that more valuable aircraft can be saved for front-line use.

The B-29s are usuable for a lot of similar work - for example they can be sent into hell to get air samples etc and find out what the environment is like at various altitudes. It migt just be that props could be usable where jets are not - if there was a blade erosion problem for example, props may last longer than jets. There's quite a few uses for an aircraft like that so that the more modern jobs can be used for vital roles.

Catch question for the peanut gallery by the way. When was the last version of the B-29 serving as a bomber withdrawn from service? For a bonus, which was the last city to be the subject of a planned attatck by B-29 variants?

[MKSheppard]

For a bonus, which was the last city to be the subject of a planned attatck by B-29 variants?

HANOI!

[MKSheppard]

THUMP, APPROVED.

Call Springfield Armory, place the order.........

*pedantic mode*

Since this is actually going into mass production and is going to be issued as service equipment; I, as head of standardization, standardize it as the Rifle, .50 Caliber, Garand M1A1.

[Typhonis 1]

Well looks like some of the shut dfown furniture plants around here would get work especially if the copy lathes are still there.

For a simple AFV. Why not take a stretcch M113 and mate it with a german 37mmm AA gun? The ammo with prox fuses would murder regular baldricks and with ap heads hurt or possibly kill larger ones.

[R011]

For a simple AFV. Why not take a stretcch M113 and mate it with a german 37mmm AA gun?

A Swedish 40 mm might be better - They're still in production for the CV9040 while the German weapons hasn't been made since 1945.

Even better, M2 or M113A3 and LAV III with the AMOS turret. That system is in production (or at least pre-production).

AMOS

[KlavoHunter]

THUMP, APPROVED.

Call Springfield Armory, place the order.........

*pedantic mode*

Since this is actually going into mass production and is going to be issued as service equipment; I, as head of standardization, standardize it as the Rifle, .50 Caliber, Garand M1A1.

\

But it's not .50 calibre, it's .458.

[CaptainChewbacca]

On the subject of Capital Punishment; I think instead of death sentences we should either convert to cryogenic stasis (if that does in fact protect the soul) or simply conscript labor.

[Sidewinder]

Bin Laden was probably one of the faithful who just laid down and died when The Message was made.

By the way, will crew-served weapons, i.e., machine guns, be modified to fire .458 Winchester Magnum or .50 Beowulf? Or are we sticking with 7.62 mm NATO or 7.62 x 54 mm R for machine guns?

[Firethorn]

THUMP, APPROVED.

Call Springfield Armory, place the order.........

*pedantic mode*

Since this is actually going into mass production and is going to be issued as service equipment; I, as head of standardization, standardize it as the Rifle, .50 Caliber, Garand M1A1.

Rifle, .478 Caliber, Garand M1E15. Maybe M1T38. I'd avoid the M1A1 designation, as it's shared with the abrams tanks.

Thinking about it, I realized something else. An AR line rifle, except for the barrel, uses substantially different manufacturing techniques for construction than a Garand. For example, M16 receivers are cast, where a M1 receiver is forged(though cast versions also exist). This is part of the reason for the M1's great strength, though modern casting techniques have closed much of the gap. The M1 also has a much smaller part count, and a field strip will allow the trigger assembly to be cleaned much better than the M16, where disassembling the trigger group is a task for an armorer in garrison.

Wood stocks could be produced in retasked furniture stores even while synthetic stocks roll out of their own factories. Though depending, as long as the stock of the rifle is within specs(so it fits when mounting) and strong enough, it doesn't matter whether the furniture is wood or synthetic.

Hornandy and other hunting bullet manufacturers can start on the .478(and expand their manufacturing), while military round producers work on the .50 Beowulf and keeping current military weapons supplied.

[MKSheppard]

Rifle, .478 Caliber, Garand M1E15. Maybe M1T38. I'd avoid the M1A1 designation, as it's shared with the abrams tanks.

Does nobody here understand US Designations?

E is used for experimental, test equipment. For example, the M1E1 Abrams, when it was approved for mass production and service use, was standardized as the M1A1.

And sharing the M1A1 designation is no problem; we had tons of "M1s" in service in WW2 at the same time.

Besides, GDLS just got a contract to convert all remaining M1A1s into A2 SEP v2s.

Yes; I made a boo boo with the designation so it'd be;

"Rifle, .458 Caliber, Garand, M1A1"

Wait.....why are we accepting a completely different caliber for our new Garands, raising the spectre of one rifle caliber for the "fire brigades", and another caliber for the mass army?

As Stuart has said, the .50 Beowulf is already in production for the USCG, meanwhile, Marina's proposed .458 Win Mag isn't in the DoD system.

Also; .50 Beowulf will be good enough for infantry engagements. If you need to kill a Baldrick at a mile; don't shoot at him with a rifle, have your M113's .50 caliber AAMG deal with him.

[TimothyC]

The B-29/50 and B-36 recovery makes me wonder if we will see a last ride of a certain aircraft with a tail number of 20001, for that would bring a tear to my eye.

[Stuart]

For a bonus, which was the last city to be the subject of a planned attatck by B-29 variants?

HANOI!

Quite right. For a bonus, the year and the version of the B-29 was?

[MKSheppard]

Quite right. For a bonus, the year and the version of the B-29 was?

Tu-4, and 1979?

[MKSheppard]

Yes, I know the US Marines designated their PIP M-60 the M60E3; but that's the Marines, they don't follow nobody's rules, except the Corps' rules.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Rifle, .478 Caliber, Garand M1E15. Maybe M1T38. I'd avoid the M1A1 designation, as it's shared with the abrams tanks.

Does nobody here understand US Designations?

E is used for experimental, test equipment. For example, the M1E1 Abrams, when it was approved for mass production and service use, was standardized as the M1A1.

And sharing the M1A1 designation is no problem; we had tons of "M1s" in service in WW2 at the same time.

Besides, GDLS just got a contract to convert all remaining M1A1s into A2 SEP v2s.

Yes; I made a boo boo with the designation so it'd be;

"Rifle, .458 Caliber, Garand, M1A1"

Wait.....why are we accepting a completely different caliber for our new Garands, raising the spectre of one rifle caliber for the "fire brigades", and another caliber for the mass army?

As Stuart has said, the .50 Beowulf is already in production for the USCG, meanwhile, Marina's proposed .458 Win Mag isn't in the DoD system.

Also; .50 Beowulf will be good enough for infantry engagements. If you need to kill a Baldrick at a mile; don't shoot at him with a rifle, have your M113's .50 caliber AAMG deal with him.

Ease of production. .458 winchester magnum is exactly the same overall length as .30-06. So we don't have to make massive modifications to the design of the receiver on the Garand. The initial production order for these rifles is going to be to the tune of 25 million, you realize?

[Stuart Mackey]

However, that Army won't be around forever. It's likely that in the longer term, the existing US formations will become fire brigade units used where firepower and agility are needed while a new mass Army will be formed (essentially for home defense etc etc etc).

I am reminded of the fate of the BEF of 1914, and its successors. Its an enormous new army that needs to be trained, for the US and everyone else, getting it to an acceptable standard will be a long task.
I wonder how the population of west will deal with this type of warfare? certainly the fairly sedantry existence we have led thus far is over..the WW2 generation, such as those who are left will be an interesting source of advice on how to live. At the very least, obesity problems will wane if rationing goes into force, nothing like a good world war to get fit and healthy.

[MKSheppard]

The B-29/50 and B-36 recovery makes me wonder if we will see a last ride of a certain aircraft with a tail number of 20001, for that would bring a tear to my eye.

Pfft. Will all those 37mm and 57mm Anti Tank Guns serving as Gate Guards at VFW and American Legion posts get refurbished and given to milita units? I mean if we're bringing back B-29s....

[MKSheppard]

The initial production order for these rifles is going to be to the tune of 25 million, you realize?

And guess what? The guy in charge of logistics, I.e. Supplying these 25 million rifles with ammo to shoot is going to go and say

"No; I don't care if .458 is superior; I want one caliber for combat rifles; if you want to make some specialist long range rifles, go ahead; but for mass production rifles; I want one round."

Unless of course, we want to end up like the WWII Japanese with multiple incompatible rifle and machine gun calibers...

[Sea Skimmer]

Pfft. Will all those 37mm and 57mm Anti Tank Guns serving as Gate Guards at VFW and American Legion posts get refurbished and given to milita units? I mean if we're bringing back B-29s....

You think small, everyone knows priority should go towards cutting down every possible 16in gun barrel to 20cal for use firing canister. Heck an M1 tank hull might even be able to move such a thing, if it was mounted backwards.

And say, what consideration has been given to bullets with ricin or nerve gas pellets as payloads? If Baldricks have DNA at all those poisons should be effective, and I can’t see mere ‘morality’ getting in the way of things. Though I suppose we might hold back all gas weapons for use by specialist units only, if only because of safety concerns for our own men.