Revelation review

[Darth Yoshi]

Unless I'm thinking of another book, that's been out for a while. Something about a group of stormtroopers get disillusioned and try deserting, with Vader and Mara on their tails, I think.

[Darth Hoth]

If you only read one review, read YodaKenobi's here (scroll down till you see it).

You'll be glad you did...

While I do not consider myself a very religious man, THANK GOD that I no longer bother with this offal after the Dark Nest trilogy. I was aware that it was bad, but this is enough to force one into hibernation.

Mando Jaina=:banghead:

[Darth Onasi]

Good god. I'd heard of the Jedi bashing but reading those excerpts..
Why the fuck are they letting someone who obviously loathes Jedi write for them?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Good god. I'd heard of the Jedi bashing but reading those excerpts..
Why the fuck are they letting someone who obviously loathes Jedi write for them?

I think we have been wondering about that for the last couple or so years.

[PainRack]

Unless I'm thinking of another book, that's been out for a while. Something about a group of stormtroopers get disillusioned and try deserting, with Vader and Mara on their tails, I think.

Yeah. I steered away from it because reading about Mara wasn't my cup of tea. But Zahn has a way of rising above the mess that the others don't.

[18-Till-I-Die]

This Jedi bashing is getting almost infantile.

Anyone read those really, really shitty fanfics where some maladjusted lard-ass who thinks "HET!? Ew!" is a word with a dictionary definition tries desperately to make Cloud fuck Sephiroth, or Aang fuck Zuko or whatever, so they make every female character into a blithering moron for the single purpose of creating some ideal "OTP" (whatever that means...) for their own story?

Ok this "book" is like that, only published and with "JEDI!? Ew!" as the central theme instead.

Seriously, what the fuck people? Does anyone have ANY idea what the Hell is Traviss' problem with Jedi? I mean really, at first i thought it was cause she liked the Mandos but this goes way, way beyond that...the sheer venom and snarkiness of it takes on a life of it's own in this "novel". So what the fuck, did she ever hint at anything during those arguments and dust ups a while ago? Does anyone have any idea what this is about? Cause frankly i'm almost sickened by the idea that "Order 66 was long overdue" what with the genocide and child murder involved, and her view of "spoonbenders" in Star Wars boarders on some kind of bizarre bigotry. On the one hand i get the idea this is leading to some Quixotic "moral" where they all find out they're "Not That Different" or something cause that seems almost cliche enough, but if that kind of touchy feely shit is what she's going for she sure picked a crazy way to do it...anyone have any idea what her problem is?

Besides being a shitty writer...

[Darth Hoth]

Seriously, what the fuck people? Does anyone have ANY idea what the Hell is Traviss' problem with Jedi? I mean really, at first i thought it was cause she liked the Mandos but this goes way, way beyond that...the sheer venom and snarkiness of it takes on a life of it's own in this "novel". So what the fuck, did she ever hint at anything during those arguments and dust ups a while ago? Does anyone have any idea what this is about? Cause frankly i'm almost sickened by the idea that "Order 66 was long overdue" what with the genocide and child murder involved, and her view of "spoonbenders" in Star Wars boarders on some kind of bizarre bigotry. On the one hand i get the idea this is leading to some Quixotic "moral" where they all find out they're "Not That Different" or something cause that seems almost cliche enough, but if that kind of touchy feely shit is what she's going for she sure picked a crazy way to do it...anyone have any idea what her problem is?

Besides being a shitty writer...

Well, at the risk of sounding pro-Traviss, which is far from my intention, I am very uncomfortable with calling Order 66 a "genocide". By the same logic, the Night of the Long Knives in das Reich, when the Schutzstaffel eliminated the most "dangerous" of the Sturmabteilung's leaders, would be a genocide as well. What Order 66 really was, was essentially Palpatine's counter-coup against the Jedi Putsch attempt; he overreacted, but under the circumstances it may be understandable.

And since the Jedi use child soldiers, one could perhaps also argue the case that the killing of the Younglings was legitimate from a strictly military point of view, assuming that they refused to surrender. This is a far more slippery slope, however.

[Darth Onasi]

Well, at the risk of sounding pro-Traviss, which is far from my intention, I am very uncomfortable with calling Order 66 a "genocide". By the same logic, the Night of the Long Knives in das Reich, when the Schutzstaffel eliminated the most "dangerous" of the Sturmabteilung's leaders, would be a genocide as well. What Order 66 really was, was essentially Palpatine's counter-coup against the Jedi Putsch attempt; he overreacted, but under the circumstances it may be understandable.

Palpatine had been planning Order 66 for years, as part of his intricate and patient rise to power. I really doubt that he would've just let the Jedi exist if they hadn't tried to move against him.

And since the Jedi use child soldiers, one could perhaps also argue the case that the killing of the Younglings was legitimate from a strictly military point of view, assuming that they refused to surrender. This is a far more slippery slope, however.

The Younglings were in training, that's hardly a "child soldier".
Moreover they weren't in combat, and the ones Anakin confronted didn't even realise he was the enemy. He butchered them without giving them a chance to surrender.

[Darth Hoth]

Palpatine had been planning Order 66 for years, as part of his intricate and patient rise to power. I really doubt that he would've just let the Jedi exist if they hadn't tried to move against him.

His motivations may have been suspect, but in the context his actions would be legitimate, and would hardly appear criminal to the public or the courts. And in no case can the political killing of a couple of thousand officers or members of a paramilitary group amount to genocide.

The Younglings were in training, that's hardly a "child soldier".
Moreover they weren't in combat, and the ones Anakin confronted didn't even realise he was the enemy. He butchered them without giving them a chance to surrender.

The Jedi have been known to use underaged combattants on earlier occasions, most prominently during Lord Hoth's Ruusan Campaign. It is also beyond any doubt that they battle-trained children as late as 19 BBY; if you watch Zett Jukassa's escape attempt (in RotS when Bail Organa visits the Temple), you will see that he without much effort cuts down several of the elite 501st's Clonetroopers. The children are military targets.

Of course, this does not excuse the killing of helpless or surrendered enemies. Upon second viewing, this appears to be what the Younglings constituted. Naturally, I shall concede the point that Anakin then committed a war crime.

[General Soontir Fel]

This Jedi bashing is getting almost infantile.

Anyone read those really, really shitty fanfics where some maladjusted lard-ass who thinks "HET!? Ew!" is a word with a dictionary definition tries desperately to make Cloud fuck Sephiroth, or Aang fuck Zuko or whatever, so they make every female character into a blithering moron for the single purpose of creating some ideal "OTP" (whatever that means...) for their own story?

Ok this "book" is like that, only published and with "JEDI!? Ew!" as the central theme instead.

Seriously, what the fuck people? Does anyone have ANY idea what the Hell is Traviss' problem with Jedi? I mean really, at first i thought it was cause she liked the Mandos but this goes way, way beyond that...the sheer venom and snarkiness of it takes on a life of it's own in this "novel". So what the fuck, did she ever hint at anything during those arguments and dust ups a while ago? Does anyone have any idea what this is about? Cause frankly i'm almost sickened by the idea that "Order 66 was long overdue" what with the genocide and child murder involved, and her view of "spoonbenders" in Star Wars boarders on some kind of bizarre bigotry. On the one hand i get the idea this is leading to some Quixotic "moral" where they all find out they're "Not That Different" or something cause that seems almost cliche enough, but if that kind of touchy feely shit is what she's going for she sure picked a crazy way to do it...anyone have any idea what her problem is?

Besides being a shitty writer...

Her problem is misconception after misconception.

In Bloodlines, she has Fett call them "winners in the genetic lottery". The contrast is that Mandos earn their position (hint, KT: Jedi aren't any different--they have to train, otherwise their talents are barely useful).

Fett thinks that every single war in the history of the galaxy except the Yuuzhan Vong invasion was Jedi vs. Sith, with both groups equally culpable.

Remember that I pointed out that KT made Daala some sort of egalitarian?

Traviss also thinks that Obi-Wan was being terrible to Anakin in leaving him on Mustafar, because "you don't treat your friends like that". Right. After you see them slaughter children, choke their pregnant wives, and try to kill you, you're supposed to remain all buddy-buddy. Yeah. Whatever, KT.

Not to mention the idea that that since Mara went after Jacen, that somehow partially absolves Jacen of her murder.

No, it won't be "Not that Different". It'll be "Mandos are awesome, and Jedi suck." Given what VT said, it's no longer limited to Traviss.

I've encountered a similar attitude in segments of Harry Potter fandom. There are people who seriously think that the Death Eaters are right, and they're defending the wizarding community from the Muggles, who'd slaughter wizards wholesale if they ever found out.

I'm going to put out an idea here: is anyone interested in participating in a LOTF rewrite? Take the basic idea (Jacen becomes a Sith, Corellian secession sparks a civil war), but execute it competently. In other words:

1. Internal consistency with numbers and political alignments (the Imperial Remnant is part of the GA in Betrayal, with Pellaeon as GA's supreme commander, back to a separate political entity in Revelation).
2. Make Jacen a compelling villain, and have progressive character development rather than going back and forth. (In other words, if Jacen decides that he is Darth Caedus in one chapter, and thus has no twin sister, don't have him angst about fighting Jaina two chapters later--this actually happens in Revelation.
3. Write Star Wars, not a political commentary on current events.
4. Don't kill characters off for shock value; the death must have a purpose, and that purpose must be defined, and must not change from book to book to cover up the fact that the real purpose was, in fact, shock value.
5. Show that there are some consequences from the Yuuzhang Vong war.
6. No revisionist bullshit. Boba Fett hasn't killed "more Jedi than anyone", he hasn't killed any. He was thrown in the Sarlacc by a barely trained Jedi and a blind man.
7. Yes, we all seen the prequels. No gratuitous references to prequel events and locations, especially if the characters shouldn't know about them. If you make references, at least make them correctly. (Note to KT: Qui-Gon Jinn did not kill Darth Maul).
8. 54-year old women usually don't get pregnant. That goes double if they're married to 71-year old men.
9. *Group X has been in hiding from everyone, and no one knew about them, but they show up when it's convenient for the plot*. It was slightly compelling when Zahn did it with Thrawn. Then we had Palpatine's clones, Daala, Eye of Palpatine, Hand of Thrawn, the Shadow Academy, the Vong, Mandalorians, Kiliks, Lumiya, the Sith on Korriban, and now Daala again. There's a reason deus ex machina is considered a bad plot device.
10. No SoD-killing references to fandom (i.e. characters talking about Han "shooting first").
11. Competence on both sides. Jacen should have been killed a long time ago, but was saved by Luke's, Mara's, and Boba Fett's stupidity.
12. Consistent character spectrum. A quarter of the first book about X-wing pilots, a quarter of the second about Fett, a quarter of the third about Saba, Zekk, and the Hapans, then going through the cycle again is another of those things that kills SoD. Even the NJO, at least in the later half, wasn't that jarring.

18-Till-I-Die: I can't understand your hatred for slash. None of the bad things you mention are unique to it; bashing a character because they are an obstacle/perceived obstacle for the author's preferred romantic relationship is common in both het and slash. Good fanfic (het and slash) avoids that.

[JME2]

7. Yes, we all seen the prequels. No gratuitous references to prequel events and locations, especially if the characters shouldn't know about them. If you make references, at least make them correctly. (Note to KT: Qui-Gon Jinn did not kill Darth Maul).

Add in any references to Naboo; I've already counted at least half a dozen Naboo references in the first 2/3 of Revelation. Is it laziness or does KT have some weird fixation with the planet?

[Darth Hoth]

Add in any references to Naboo; I've already counted at least half a dozen Naboo references in the first 2/3 of Revelation. Is it laziness or does KT have some weird fixation with the planet?

If I recall correctly, they counted eight of them total at TFN.

[Jim Raynor]

Holy fucking shit, I just read YodaKenobi's review. It's not even how retarded Traviss's anti-Jedi crap is. The sheer fucking volume of it in one book is just jaw-dropping.

YodaKenobi's review didn't show up on the page that was linked to, and I had to do some searching for it. It's also extremely long, and really takes it to Traviss. I'm posting excerpts here dealing with the Jedi and Mandalorians. They're still fucking long (part of why they're so shocking), but I'm leaving out a ton of stuff before hand for relatively easier reading.

Jedi are Useless:

The theme of the book becomes very clear early on. Jaina wants to capture Jacen and end the threat he poses to the galaxy, but she fears he is too powerful. So how does she counter it? By training with Luke and nurturing her own Force powers so that she can take him on in an epic clash of Light vs. Dark, Jedi vs. Sith? No, of course not. She's going to go see Boba Fett and ask for his help because Jedi skills are of no use against a Sith Lord.

Ben wants to find out for sure if Jacen murdered his mother or not. How does he do it? By turning to Shevu's training of course. It's not like the Jedi are trained to investigate crimes. We've never seen them solve murders, track bounty hunters with little more than a poison dart as a clue, or follow a Sith back to her apartment based on the flashes present in security cameras.

Jedi skills are useless.

On page 4, we get Ben's reasoning:

[blockquote]Ben had committed himself to take the rational, legal path rather than the intuition of Force users.[/blockquote]

This implies, of course, that the Jedi way is irrational and illegal.

Later, on page 199, when Luke expresses pride in his son, it's after Ben explains how he has been investigating the crime in the impartial analytical way that Shevu has trained him in.

But it's not just solving crimes that the Jedi are deficient at. On page 62, we get Pellaeon's thoughts:

[blockquote]"Jedi are very good at being in opposition, being the conscience on the shoulder of learders and keeping them on their toes, or even playing peace-keeping shock troopers when needed, but they do not run things well. They're doers, not managers."[/blockquote]

Strange. By all accounts, Tenel Ka is doing a great job as leader of the Hapes Consortium, and Pellaeon later mentions Leia, so it's odd that he would hold steady to this rule when he knows there's an exception.

We get a little more later:

[blockquote]The Jedi Council was part think tank, part special forces, part mystical reassurance for the ruling class; Jedi could nudge and steer, and even block, but they were used to being a small weight added to tip the scales.[/blockquote]

That's right, the Jedi Knights— there to serve the ruling class.

Jedi also suck at fighting. Ben and Shevu on page 88:

[blockquote]"Do Jedi actually land punches?"

"No, but..."[/blockquote]

Beviin knows this too. He scoffs when he hears that Jaina wants to learn how to kill Jedi:

[blockquote]"Is that all you want? Just a few tips on whacking the bathrobe brigade."[/blockquote]

OMG funny!

After Jaina gets beaten down hard by Beviin on page 175, she explains:

Jaina: "We're even trained not to think, just to feel intuitively with the Force."

And the Force doesn't work with a beskad...? Poor stupid Jedi. No good at teh thinking

Page 181:

[blockquote]"If you ever get a Force-using Mandalorian, how would they be treated?"

"They'd be in demand for getting stuck lids off cans."[/blockquote]

Followed later on 392 when Jaina uses the Force to open the Mando champagne bottles like a trained seal:

[blockquote]pg392: "I've found a use for Jedi! I knew I would one day! Look!"[/blockquote]

Those loveable idiots.

You'd think Traviss could mix it up a little more instead of basically using the same insult twice.

On page 369, Boba ends a conversation with Jaina with this little nugget of encouragement:

[blockquote]"No, you don't get it. But if any of your kind could, it'd be you."

Jaina felt suddenly irrelevant.[/blockquote]

The second part made me laugh, because Jaina certainly is irrelevant in this story. I'll get into that later. But basically, the Jedi are incapable of understanding. Got it.

One more quick way in which the Force just doesn't do much:

[blockquote]"Ben had once said to her that he used the GAG helmet comlinks, because the Force was all well and good, but he needed to send complex information in apparent silence, and the Force was pretty poor at that."[/blockquote]

Seems like kind of a strange point to make while Jaina is thinking about how she needs to warn Mirta. Yes, the Force sucks at communicating complex information, especially to non-Force-sensitives... And? You know what else the Force sucks at? Flying. Jedi can't sprout wings and fly. It's true.

It's almost as if we're just trying to find ways where the Force is inferior... [face_thinking]

Also, lol @ Jaina for having to learn how a helmet comm works from a 14 year old. Didn't she like, fly an X-Wing before? What a dummy!

But it's not really Jaina's fault. All the Jedi are basically dumb animals. We see numerous references to this in revelation. "Better go find my tame Jedi," Boba Fett says in page 349. And check out these two wonderful comments mined from the same deposite of beskar:

[blockquote]"The trouble with getting attached to Jedi, Buir, is that it's like making pets of nerfs and nuna— really upsetting when you have to slaughter them." (pg 181)[/blockquote]

And on page 223, Yomaget on Jaina learning Mando stuff:

[blockquote]"It's like sticking beskar'gam on a bantha. Good for a laugh, and the bantha might feel safer if it understood armor, but it doesn't turn it into a soldier."[/blockquote]

Constant metaphors made by Mandos comparing Jaina & Jedi to dumb animals. This seems especially odd considering how little Traviss' writing relies on anything as artful as metaphor (go ahead and add up how many times its used in narration), so it seems like she's going especially out of her way here...

Lastly, we see that everyone and their pet whisperkit has figured out who killed Mara Jade Skywalker... Except the Jedi of course!

Niathal suspects it on page 45. Shevu knows. Fett knew right away. A gossip magazine seems to have put it together, and before that, a random crewperson even knows Jacen killed Mara on page 148! [face_laugh]

The only Jedi who knows is Ben, and that's only because of his superior GAG training at the hands of the almighty Shevu and Lekauf.

The single contradiction to this "how useless the Jedi" are theme is when Boba Fett is impressed by Jaina wading into a stream of blaster fire with nothing but her flightsuit and a lightsaber... that's it.

Welcome to Mandalore, A.K.A. Jonestown. Time to Drink your Mando'ade:

Not everyone one in the galaxy is as useless as the Jedi— thankfully the mighty Mandalorians are there to pick up the slack, and show at least one aimless Jedi what's what.

The Mandos are the best at everything. Their Bes'uliik fighters are faster than an X-Wing and made of "virtually impregnable armor." The same super armor that protects their righteous bodies in combat, known as beskar. Not even a lightsaber can damage this magical metal.

And guess what: In all the galaxy, the Mandos are the only ones who can make beskar.

So it's really no surprise that the galaxy as seen in Revelation seems to revolve around the Mandalorians and Boba Fett.

It takes less than a page in chapter 2 for us to get into our first Mando'a lesson, with an explanation of the word, "Ba'buir." We get an explanation on this word no fewer than three times in the course of the novel. Is it overkill? A completely unnecessary indulgence of the author that does little but slow down the story?

Yes, yes it is.

It's also not a working language no matter what Karen Traviss tries to sell you.

There are times in this story when it seems like every other paragraph is an explanation of a Mando'a word. Nothing new of course. But the kewlness of the Mandos and their language has spread across the galaxy.

Check out my favorite scene on page 46 with Luke talking to Niathal:

[blockquote]"Do you know the term Sith? They're Force users who prefer the dark side. Like Palpatine."

"Oh, I see. Fallen Jedi."

"Oddly, that's just what the Mandalorians call them. Their word means ex-Jedi, although that's not always the case." [/blockquote]

Luke is thinking in Mando'a now! :^O Completely out of nowhere he pulls out a Mando reference. This is also incredibly similar to the scene in Bloodlines where Mara sees Ben in his GAG garb and thinks about how Mandalorian children go into battle.

Is there really anyone who doesn't see this as absolutely ridiculous?

Luckily, that's not where the Mandos' awesomeness ends. We see this right away when Jaina Solo, a trained Jedi Knight, goes to Mandalore and is scared and intimidated by them. She even notes things for "future anxiety sessions." The Mandalorians, on the other hand, aren't concerned by her at all and keep focused on their game.

Like anyone else who would go to Mandalore, Jaina is enthralled and anxious to learn Mando'a immediately.

On page 97, we start to see why they are so much better than the Jedi from Jaina's eyes:

[blockquote] "Lovely," she said. "I'll take it as a good sign that none of you (Mandalorians) ever came after us (Jedi)."[/blockquote]

The Mandos would have killed the Jedi with ease!

Jaina's announcement that she's a fighter pilot on pg 117 is ignored by Fett because, "They're all fighter pilots here." Nevermind that Jaina is a Jedi and arguably the best pilot in the galaxy— she's not match for a Mando!

Boba O'Riley agrees to train the poor Jedi, and in their first sparring match on page 131, Fett sucker punches her in the stomach— an assault that is later described as, ""Old man Fett nearly taking her spleen apart with a gut-punch."

"Nobody had ever jumped her like that before, she hadn't sensed it coming."

Not even the Yuuzhan Vong?! Mandos are so awesome! They can shut down their intentions in the Force better than someone who doesn't even exist in it.

On page 133, Boba explains what's wrong with Jaina:

[blockquote]"No, I'm telling you this isn't about lightsaber technique. I'm more than twice your ago, no Force powers, and I got you to drop your guard. Winning isn't about being better. It's finding your opponent's weakness and exploiting it."[/blockquote]

Jaina doesn't know this! Cause, it's not like they didn't do that over and over again with the Yuuzhan Vong, coming up with new techniques like shadow bombs, melds, and ya know, those Yammosk Jammers Jaina took the initiative to engineer in DJ! :^O

But you know Jaina. She's a by-the-book Jedi incapable of thinking outside the box.

Then on 134, they get down to beskar tacks and discuss how this relates to Jacen:

[blockquote]"But what about Jacen's weaknesses?"

"They're yours."

"He's my twin. I know him."

"And he knows you. Be someone else."[/blockquote]

I already addressed the part about Jaina claiming she knows Jacen, so let's try and ignore that and look at the logic behind this: Obi-Wan never had to be someone else to beat Anakin Skywalker. They were "brothers", trained and fought together way more than Jaina and Jacen have.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, but we'll stay focused on the Mandos and come back to this later...

[blockquote]"If I could be that different, Fett, I wouldn't be a Jedi."

"There you go."[/blockquote]

See, Jedi are no good at fighting Sith. Throughout history, it's always been someone else who defeated them. Wait...

Jaina immediately sinks into Mando life and takes an interest in things that shouldn't matter to her at all and really have nothing to do with the story, like Shysa Fenn and Sintas Vel. As in Sacrifice, we get to see the only happy well-adjusted families in the Mandalorian realm, most notably Beviin & Medrit's large clan of kids and happy grandkids. We're at their dinner table more than once again, and at the end, we even get to see the party after a Mandalorian wedding!

Getting back to Beviin and Jaina in the field: Jaina has to wear armor to spar with him and besk'ads of course, even though the weapon Jaina usually fights with can't even touch her. Immediately we see that Beviin knows everything about Jedi and lightsaber techniques, and the Mando way is flawless.

"See what happens if you get used to a beskad. It'll change the way you handle that shiny stick."

That's not a good thing...

As could be predicted because Mandos rule and Jedi are teh suck, Beviin kicks Jaina's butt in two seconds on page 174:

[blockquote]"It was over in two seconds flat and he hadn't even used the blade [...] It was the first time she had been taken down in a saber fight of any kind in years."[/blockquote]

Incredible!

Beviin says that, "The only point I'm making is that you don't know any of my moves yet."

He doesn't know hers either, but since Mandos are superior...

Beviin's point gets driven home. On page 175 he beats her down over, and over, and over again. The feeble Jedi just has no chance.

Why? According to page 175, it was because "Armor changed the game, making any limb both a shield and a weapon."

If only the NJO had fought an opponent with tough, lightsaber-resistant armor before...

Jaina: "This is like nothing I've ever seen. You break every rule of close combat."

Those YV were real sticklers about rules of combat. I would also like to point out how absurd it sounds that Beviin gets "inside Jaina's reach." She's like 4 foot 10!

pg178: Jaina gets beaten up with a small stick even though she can't do the same to Beviin. She falls into a fetal position on the ground and thinks he's going to beat her death.

Anyone getting the sense that there's some pent-up anger here?

Jaina is enthralled by Beviin's tactics. Says "Wow."

The berserker tactic itself or "red mist" is almost exactly what Vergere was trying to teach Jacen in Traitor— it was even described as a "red tide" in that book...

Often times, we see that the Mandos always seem to guess what Jaina is thinking. I think this may be a sort of Mando'sense.

On page 203 we see more examples of how important the Mandos have become in this heart-warming father/son moment between Luke and Ben:

[blockquote]pg 203: "Don't get killed, Dad. You know what it did to Fett. I don't want you to end up like him."[/blockquote]

Everything is relatable to Fett in one way or another, right?

Then we have the battle at Fondor: The Mandos crush everyone with ease and take no losses or even injuries. All while dealing out lots of snappy one-liners and quips during the action, of course. Their beskar armor is ridiculously strong, absolutely impenetrable. They take an endless amount of shots and it never does any damage (I'm pretty sure "beskar" is mando'a for "character shield.").

And of course they whip up on the Jedi/Sith (they're the same you know). Page 334:

[blockquote]Mirta shouldn't have been able to beat a Jedi's reaction time. But she did."

Tahiri gets flatened by Mirta and then can't injure her with a lightsaber. "Jaina could see Tahiri through the faceplate and knew she would never forget her look of horror as the blade of energy simply failed to slice through Mirta's body. My lightsaber doesn't work. For any Jedi, it was a shocking, naked moment.[/blockquote]

Unless, you know, they fought the Yuuzhan Vong... [face_raised_brow]

Mirta on 336:

[blockquote]"Don't worry, I got my own Jedi."[/blockquote]

The Mandos beat the Jedi and Sith at every turn. "Invincible" must be about them!

On page 335, we jump into total absurdity when Jacen's Force illusion doesn't fool a Mando the way it did Mara in Sacrifice. And of course, the Mandos only shoot him in the knee to give those pathetic Force-users a fighting chance.

You have to wonder about the point of a scene like this. Why write a scene where the Mandalorians have a chance to kill a Sith Lord and pass on it? All you're doing is making the villain look less scary and more mortal... Oh, and elevating the Mandalorians of course. So I guess that is the point.

The Mandos could have killed Jacen if they wanted to. They're just so awesome they didn't feel like it.

More proof Mandos are better than Jedi, we have Jaina and Medrit discussing Gotab on page 381:

[blockquote]"He didn't have a choice to be a Jedi, did he?"

"No, but he chose to be one of you."[/blockquote]

Cuz they're better and stuff.

And on page 401, Jaina seeks guidance from Gotab— guidance that will shape the galaxy's future! I couldn't help but wonder what difference it made to Jaina if he thinks of himself as Gotab or Jusik and if he has a family, but I guess the Mandos are just that fascinating and we have to go off on these huge tangents that have no bearing on the story at all.

So what about flaws? Surely the Mandalorians have them, right? We see Jaina notice one and immediatley think of herself on page 260:

[blockquote]"She'd never had to worry about where her next meal was coming from."[/blockquote]

That's right: any flaws in the Mandalorian society are only injected to make them more sympathetic and the rest of the galaxy like *******s who don't care. Mando children are starving, meanwhile, Princess Jaina Solo has never missed a meal.

"For only 19 cents a day, you could provide enough gruel'ika to feed a starving Mandalorian for a month."

Let's move on to the king.

Chew the Fett:

The puns will get worse as we go.

But let's talk about Boba Fett. Immediately in the prologue the attempts to build Boba up into a huge mythical figure are evident, as they have been in the other Traviss books, but Revelation takes it to a new level.

On page 112 we're again reminded that Fett could kill Jacen if he wanted to and he's only letting someone else do it because it's better revenge. This is followed by the most perplexing and repeated claim in the story when Jaina is talking to Boba:

[blockquote] "You've killed and captured more Jedi than anyone."[/blockquote]

What Jedi has Fett captured? I've been looking and I just can't find any anywhere... if someone can name one, feel free to PM me. In the films, all Boba ever did was escort a chunk of carbonite to Jabba the Hutt and then get his *** kicked royally by a blind man and a hole in the ground.

What? Darth Vader, anyone? Or if we're strictly talking the living, Luke Skywalker has everyone beat in the "defeating Force-users" segment. We'll come back to that later though.

Boba's response:

[blockquote]"Oh, I don't know... some of my brothers rack up a pretty good score back in the day."[/blockquote]

lol. Order 66 was so kewl!!!11

Jaina:

[blockquote]Jaina: "And I'm pretty sure you never gave Jacen the top ten Mandalorian tips on Jedi busting."[/blockquote]

Boba Fett is the best at everything.

He is all things to all people, existing beyond time and space. He eats beskar flakes for breakfast, has X-ray vision, and once took down an Executor-class Star Destroyer with a single head-butt. Boba Fett was the second gunman on the grassy knoll, he framed Roger Rabbit, and was in the Jackson 5, the West Memphis 3, and the Oceanic 6.

Boba Fett totally shot first.

At the end of the book, we see Jaina confide in Boba Fett and we learn that he didn't kill Jacen because he doesn't want the Solos or Skywalkers to blame him. On 371, "He (Boba Fett) was an injured but dangerous bystander, landing a punch any way he could."

Fett is just an innocent victim

But let's get to Sintas. Fett's former squeeze isn't dead. Traviss is really upping the ante for bringing back the most characters no one gave a damn about to begin with. I wonder if we'll see people complaining about Star Wars "jumping the shark" because we thought she was dead and now she's alive... [face_thinking]

Anyway, what was the point of any of this? Like Boba Fett's illness in Bloodlines, this has absolutely nothing to do with the main storyline in any way. We spend time learning about the history of jewelry Boba gives Sintas rather than see the family reaction for the Skywalker/Solos to learning Jacen killed Mara. And what does it all lead to...?

And this is the difference between Traviss and the other authors when it comes to "pet character." The story doesn't revolve around Allston and Denning's favorites. We never see Wedge's anguish at Iella's tangential battle with breast cancer, Saba Sebatyne's elation at locating her long-lost hatchling, or go to Endor to meet the little gray Ewok Tarfang is currently bumping paunches with. Those characters are only there to enhance the story for the main characters, assist it along the way.

Fett's story is all about Fett.

And everything about it is a huge soap opera: Boba is dying of an illness, but its cured! His daughter is killed, but his long lost wife who died is actually alive! But.. but.. she has amnesia!!! Then we have a Mando wedding where Fett is the happy father of the bride. How touching.

On page 114, we get more about how self-centered Jaina and the Jedi are:

[blockquote]It was funny how victims mattered more when they had names. Fett resisted the urge to remind her that beings in all the places Jacen had attacked had names too.[/blockquote]

Those Jedi just don't care about others. Thank God Fett has this kind of insight. It's not as if Jaina Solo spent several novels grappling with the realities of war in the NJO...

Page 116:

[blockquote]She was small and her smooth hands said that she'd never had to build an entrenchment with them.[/blockquote]

Umm... The Killik War? Seriously, read the NJO and Dark Nest. The "Jaina is a princess who's never had to work hard thing," gets old quick and isn't even close to accurate.

And of course we get Jaina's impression of a Mando on 134:

[blockquote]He was very well spoken, surprisingly so, as if he was highly educated. Jaina had expected him to be an inarticulate brute.[/blockquote]

What a snob!

Page 183 when Jaina takes the last nerf steak:

[blockquote]pg183 - something she would never do at home.[/blockquote]

She was so proper before.


On age 259 Jaina wonders what the Mandos are talking about behind their helmets.

[blockquote]She wondered if they were gossiping about her. They radiated amusement.

aha

It was always edifying to see your own characteristics reflected in others. The next time that some ordinary being treated her with suspicion, she'd think how her Force abilities looked from the outside.[/blockquote]

I'll talk about what I found really disturbing about this part later, but she finds out they're talking about something else— "Life didn't center on her small circle, another reminder that there was a wider world she seldom saw."

Jaina has been so isolated!

Page 334 shows Jaina deflecting blaster bolts and them clumsily richocetting into Mirta's armor:

[blockquote]pg334: "Jaina had never been close enough to someone in those circumstances to worry about what happened to deflected bolts."[/blockquote]

lol! Never?! Those Jedi just don't care about anyone but themselves. Good thing Mirta's there to open her eyes.

Page 401 shows more of Traviss' knowledge of the NJO, when Jaina seeks advice from Gotab:

[blockquote]"I haven't ever spoken to a Jedi who walked away from the Order but wasn't a Sith."[/blockquote]

Actually, the only Sith Jaina has ever spoken to is Jacen (and Vergere, though some will object). Off the top of my head I can name three Jedi who walked away from the Order and didn't become Sith in just the last 5 years in universe, or 2 1/2 years in real world book releases: Tenel Ka, Danni Quee, and Alema Rar.

Of course, Gotab explains to her what she needs to do and Jaina says the most selfish things possible:

[blockquote]"We're talking about selfishness here— how will I feel. How will Jaina feel?"

"And the rest of my family..."

"Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about the welfar of the galaxy. How foolish of me."[/blockquote]

Starting to see the pattern?

From My Point of View, the Jedi Are Evil!:

The other theme throughout the novel is that the Jedi are no better than the Sith, that the two terms are really interchangeable, and that the Order is more harm to the galaxy than good. This point is hammered again, and again, and again, especially within the last 70 pages from everyone’s POV.

Boba kicks things off on 113 when Jaina mentions Mara as a reason for being there:

[blockquote]"Ah, so that's when you decided he needs stopping, when it's Jedi getting killed."[/blockquote]

Actually, Jaina made this decision after Jacen burned Kashyyyk and attacked the academy... Why does she mention Mara? She just learned that from Ben and didn't believe him 100%. Oh, I forgot, we have to cast Jedi in the most selfish light possible.

On page 115, we have a stunning revelation about the Jedi during the Vong War, when Boba says this to Jaina:

[blockquote]"You sacrified Mandalore to the Vong for your own ends."[/blockquote]

Which NJO book did that happen in? Mandalore was never even mentioned, but I guess the Jedi are just evil and wanted the Mandalorians to die. I'm really loving these rewrites of Traviss' where we take what was in TUF and multiply it out to the Mandos yet again cleaning up the Jedi's mess against the Yuuzhan Vong.

Luke isn't safe either. Besides more about how he's a butcher for blowing up the Death Star (You know, the weapon that was destroying whole planets and killing billions of innocent people?), we also have Niathal of all people becoming the voice of morality on page 324 and questioning how Luke will live with himself after the minelayers were killed at Fondor.

Luke didn't do anything wrong there. Niathal's the only one who betrayed her people. Luke Skywalker is no longer a part of the GA, and was protecting a bunch of innocents on Fondor. To portray the Minelayers as bystanders in this when they were helping to mine a system so that the Fondorians would be trapped and easily killed, or die when they attempted to escape, is a bit bizarre.

But anything to make the Jedi look evil, I guess.

As I said, we really get the message in the last 70.

Page 346:

[blockquote]"As long as you've got Jedi, you'll get Sith," Daala said. "One begets the other."[/blockquote]

Umm... no.

Page 347, more from Daala:

[blockquote]"I think there can be a third way. No Jedi Council. Keep them in a box, away from politics, and certainly never arm them."[/blockquote]

On page 379, we're subjected to Gotab's diatribe about how the Jedi are evil:

[blockquote] "I left the order because I couldn't stomach how we talked about compassion and then turned a blind eye to using human clones for our slave army. [...] I did whatever I could to atone for the wrong the Jedi did to these men."[/blockquote]

Right, it was the Jedi, not the Republic.

I find this especially interesting given the Mandalorians history of slavery, but I notice that no one brings that up...

Venku on 380:

[blockquote]"I'm all for keeping Jedi away from government— and Sith, of course."[/blockquote]

The end is definitely the worst of it. Page 402, more Gotab:

[blockquote]"The Order has long been about justifying its own existence, about acquiring and holding power and from what I see now, nothing much has changed since my day. I know what I swore to do as a Jedi, and it didn't have anything to do with turning a blind eye to social evils because the Sith were a bigger evil. But every act of evil we commit creates an environment where the Sith exist. So Jedi who cut corners— a Jedi Order that cuts corners— forfeit the right to hold the moral high ground."[/blockquote]

And 403:

[blockquote]"One Sith can't stand against hundreds of Jedi. Your problem is that he's your flesh and blood and none of you have the courage to do the job. You've been hoping that he'll see the light and stop so that you don't have to do the dirty work. How many ordinary beings have died while you made excuses for him because he's family?"

"I know. Okay, I know."[/blockquote]

It's all the Jedi's fault, they dont' care about anyone else, blah, blah, blah, and of course, Jaina bursts into tears and agrees with him.

Pretty funny considering the Mandos are the ones who just passed on killing Jacen... for what? Because Boba doesn't want to be blamed! That's the definition of "lack of moral courage." And yet Gotab is now following Fett. How can Gotab turn a blind eye to that social evil?

Why would Jaina care what this hypocrite thinks?

What is most telling about all of this, is there sheer repetition of the message. It's not that Daala, or Boba, or anyone else wouldn't feel this way towards Jedi— it's Traviss' need to keep hitting that drum again and again, ad nausem.

And there is never any counterpoint.

Never anyone saying, "no, that's wrong," or, "That's not what Jedi are."

Even in scenes where Jaina is there, she never disputes these claims. She either agrees with what Gotab says, or says nothing at all. But when Fett is insulted:

[blockquote]Jaina was surprised to feel an urge to defend Fett.[/blockquote]

But not the Jedi when they're criticized.

Odds was NOT the worst piece of shit ever written into "canon." It was just the tip of the iceberg.

EDIT: After logging in to TF.net and then clicking on the link, it works. There seems to be a difference between what guests see and what members see. Oh well, this should be at least be useful for the non-members who don't want to have to register.

[General Soontir Fel]

Yeah, I read that review. Great stuff (the review, not the book).

Favorite parts:

See, Jedi are no good at fighting Sith. Throughout history, it's always been someone else who defeated them. Wait...

If only the NJO had fought an opponent with tough, lightsaber-resistant armor before...

By the way, KT is on record saying that yes, she does hate the Jedi, but she's not injecting that opinion into her books. I wonder what she thinks injecting her opinion would be like.

[Ghost Rider]

Wow, just wow.

Apparently Traviss wants to see Wars dragged to lower then lowest Trek or Dr Who shit novel.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Karen Traviss would make Palpatine proud, and that wasn't supposed to be a complement.

[Darth Onasi]

Traviss' works make David Brin's rants about Jedi lording it over the normal people some years back seem tame in comparison.

Why doesn't she just go all out and title her next book "Mandalorian Wars: Mighty Boba Fett and His Sexy Fightin Mandos vs. the Stupid Ugly Jedi Who Are Stupid"

[Havok]

Who is it that is actually in control of the novels at LFL? Do they know how to read? I really can't believe that this has been written.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Who is it that is actually in control of the novels at LFL? Do they know how to read? I really can't believe that this has been written.

This is an excelent question, one i also had to ask a WHILE back when the first Traviss books came out (back during the "Brave 3,000,000" fiasco).

The general consensus was that, no, no one actually reads these books before they go out. As long as they make money, GL doesn't give a rat's ass.

To paraphrase my previous post way back when: remember that old Nazi joke about the Holocaust, 'If only Hitler knew'? Well, yeah, it's like that.

[Connor MacLeod]

I spent some time reading the reviews over at the TFNet. I have to say I've noticed a efw things.

) I loved YodaKenobi's reply. He obviously put alot of thought and research into it,a nd it was rwell received. However, I think it's also highlighted some of the more obvious problems inhnerent in TFN

a.) some users apparently wanted to go back and change their ratings. I find this disturbing because it implies that the initial rating they gave (which was usually higher) was not given honestly. I find this both curious and troubling, as it implies either a.) the readers aren't thinking very much, b.) there is enough "menance" remaining on the board that being overly critical of TRaviss can be fatal, or c.) both. This also ties into the second major thing I noticed, that being:

b.) Despite all the criticism and claims of "bad writing" on Traviss' part, everyone seeme dto fall all over themselves to keep saying she was a great writer and great and the Mandalorians were excellent and everything. Again, for much the same reasons, I find this telling and distrubing.

c.) alot of users seemed to use the "I never think about these things cuz SW is just escapist fantasy" as a defense. I daresay alot of the defenders or high-rankers probably weren't of the thinking variety - the one shwo usually gave high marks didn't give specific reasons (or very specific) wqhereas the critics took time to point out alot of hte flaws.

d.) some posters expressed "concern" over the quality, yet they still said they're going to buy the book.

This really tells you alot about the current fandom of SW and how it is represented towards LFL (I imagine the main site echoes TFN rather heavily too) and it comes across a mindlessly vapid and inconsistent, if not outright conformist (you hear alot of people calling it "solid" and giving it a 7 or 8 out of 10. Makes me wonder if its just a coupel guys on sock puppet accounts or something). While its great that there is criticism of Traviss coming otu at last (even though alot of the themes mentioned where BLATANTLY obvious as far back as Bloodlines), I find it depressing that this is how the SW fandom as seen, because all I see are fucking sheep, for the most part. It makes me glad I startted reading 40K more.

Frankly I'm at a bloody loss as to explain how Traviss could have written Hard Contact, yet gone so completely and utteryl downhill like she did. Even her earlier works still showed some signs of interesting or decent writing (Bloodlines, I admit grudgingly, still had moments despite being full of her pro-Mandalorian/Anti-Jedi nonsense.) (PS hint hint it looks better if you don't spam out a mindless "Travviss is teh Evul One!!111" style reply. She's not fucking Satan, no matter how hard she tries to convince us otherwise.)

If anything, I've come to the conclusion that her main problems are that:

a.) she's somehow been given the leeway to pursue her obsessions (where these obsessions came from I have no idea, since they are very minor in Hard Contact, and even weren't this bad in Triple Zero.) - she needs to be reined in HARD. The same with her inability to retain continuity. And the heavy-handed "political" themes she seems to introduce.

b.) Perhaps more importantly, I have to wonder who the hell she is surrounding herself with. We know Traviss has always made herself "Available" moreso than most authors to the community, ,she even seems to take a pride with it, and we learned with the "Grand Army" fiasco she involved herself in that she has some very close friends and supporters. Given that some of hte nonsense she tends to spout seems as if it would come out of the bowels of someonel ike Dark Moose or McEwok, it makes me wonder if she had "different" (and more intelligent" peopel helping her in Hard Contact, since by this time that book seems like it was written by a completely different writer than what we have now.

Basically it occurs to me that Traviss has been treated with kid gloves (and given a free rein for some bizarre reason) for far too long, and as a result her quality has gotten progressively worse. Perhaps if someone actually had the balls to stand up to her we wouldn't be seeing this spiral. Then again, people are apparently buying this book still despite how bad it is so I doubt it will be changed.

As an aside: My absolute favorite ws the critic who described the Mandalorians and Fett as being a "backwoods militia."

[Connor MacLeod]

Jesus Fucking Christ, if the number of people who take it out has less than seven zeros at the end of it, I will be disappointed.

You see, it's because the Mandalorian fighter hulls are über great compared to all other known starfighters produced by people with more experience of large-scale, open warfare for generations, because of...


...quantum.*

*Thanks to Sonnenburg for my new meme.

Incidentally, I actually had to look up the whole "mandalorian fighter" thing and figure out what the fuck this Beskar crap was. Its Mandalorian iron.

Ironically, as yet another one of those many things Karen Traviss Didn't Research, I can recall off the top of my head that in the Tales of the Jedi Novels, Exar Kun used his lightsaber to cut through... Mandalorian Iron. A grgeat big square block of it covering (IIRC) FReedon Nadd's tomb. And it was thick enough that he cut at least half a foot to a foot into it without damaging the tomb, either. Energy resistant I could believe, but not exactly "indestrtuctible"

The really sad part (Reading the wookieepedia) entries is that it apparently is basically Star Wars Damascus Steel (I don't even want to figure out the katana/marial arts wanking that might be inherent in that....) which I am praying to god is just usual Wikipedia type nonsense and not actual canon.

Oh, and then there was the part where the Empire apparently tried to salvage the stuff but couldn't figure it out. Even though they managed to develop quantum crystalline armor which later made it into commercial production (and improved upon, if I remember Star by Star correctly.) And then there was the good old "Molculearly bonded" armor from the Daley novels and radio dramas, which was INCREDIBLY turbolaser resistant. Given those examples, and the apparent fact that the real skill behind it was supposed to be folding, I have a hard time believing that the material was all that great a secret. (As someone on TFN said - "Beskar" apparently translates as "Character Shield")

Edit: Oh yeah, and Diamond Boron armor. That was rather laser-resistant too...

[Lord_Xerxes]

Boy, if I hadn't already been convinced not to buy this book by earlier in the thread, I certainly am now. It seems unfathomable to me that no one at LFL seems to realize that she is only furthering her own agenda and not only hindering the storyline with useless tangents but also ignoring or damaging previously established continuity (as was expressed in the above review multiple times).

In a better world I might think that someone giving an organized and precise statement of all the absurdities she's presented in this book in regards to both her Mando-wank agenda/Jedi-hate smear campagin and her ignorance of the previous canon (as this guy seems to show somewhat conclusively)...that maybe something would be done to stem the tide of this idiocy. But likely enough, the status quo with her will continue on. >_<

Jesus Christ, impenetrable armor is so damn lame. How exactly is the entire suit impenetrable anyway? Wouldn't it have to be flexible in certain key points or entirely hinder the wearer? Didn't even the Vong's Vonduun Crab armor have certain weak points, or am I totally remembering the Vong Wars incorrectly (I very well may be, as since alot of it was such crap and I despise biotech so much that I burned most of it from my memory). I at least recall that though being saber-resistant, it still could be pierced by blaster fire, either in sucessive or heavier doses. Did this twit learn nothing from the Sun Crusher fiasco?

We can only hope that another author gets the key face-off battle between Jacen and Jania and is hopefully tired of her crap like most of us seem to be and job Jania out hardcore. A quick decap as someone else said earlier sounded nice, but after all this "Jedi and the Force are useless and we're better than them" propaganda I almost hope it's through a Force attack. Like Jacen crushes her arteries through TK or some such.

[Tiriol]

The only way I'm going to even bother with the idea of the possibility of buying the last book in this God-forsaken series is if the author has the common sense and the guts to have the Mandalorians humiliated and slaughtered and Fett decapitated by Jacen after getting trampled by a huge animal, just like Old Man used to do. Oh, good times. And I wish to see Luke Skywalker and the rest of the Jedi to actually stand up for their ideals and Code, not only meekly spourt some homegrown wisdom about how "Sith are Jedi with dark powers". No, they are not. Luke SHOULD know better.

[Jim Raynor]

Who is it that is actually in control of the novels at LFL? Do they know how to read? I really can't believe that this has been written.

This is an excelent question, one i also had to ask a WHILE back when the first Traviss books came out (back during the "Brave 3,000,000" fiasco).

The general consensus was that, no, no one actually reads these books before they go out. As long as they make money, GL doesn't give a rat's ass.

To paraphrase my previous post way back when: remember that old Nazi joke about the Holocaust, 'If only Hitler knew'? Well, yeah, it's like that.

Oh, there are editors in place. But they're obsessed towards meaningless fanboy minutia, not actual quality control. Paraphrasing Lord Poe, "keep every stupid thing, throw nothing out." And Traviss seems to get a pass even on the minutia part, as YodaKenobi pointed out QUITE a few errors (Jedi never fighting lightsaber-resistant enemies, Jedi handing over Mandalore to the Vong, Boba's completely fabricated history as a famed Jedi-killer).

I guaran-fucking-tee that George Lucas didn't hear a peep about the ridiculous alternate-universe fanfic that Traviss was writing into this book. I usually don't come down that hard on him for continuity, because he's old, wants to live his life, and has movies to take care of. I blame it on the people he delegates to. But at some point, it just gets ridiculous. I would at least make sure that my creation wasn't violated on some basic level, like not having the Jedi (the true core of the saga, not the fucking Mandos) being portrayed as a bunch of idiotic and useless elitist assholes.

[Darth Onasi]

I think the situation at LFL is that nobody gives a shit.
Unfortunately it seems that people will by these books just because they're Star Wars even when written by a hack that makes KJA look like H.G. Wells.
They could stamp Star Wars onto a steaming pile of bull excrement and it'd sell, so what do they care?

It's because of crap like this that I applaud Lucas for giving the finger to the EU whenever he feels like it.