To vote for Obama or Hilary?

[Majin Gojira]

Aside from the gut emotional reaction, I really cannot word my like and dislike of Obama and Hilary (respectfully) properly.

So, I'd like to start a thread (or, at least be linked to one) about the pros and cons of both prospective candidates. Just the facts though.

[Darth Wong]

The biggest thing about HRC that bothers me is that she tried to define herself by the health-care issue. She even wrote a book relating to the issue, called "It Takes A Village". But fast-forward a few years, and she's accepting wheelbarrows full of money from health care companies, and she's crafting a health-care plan which (as a totally unintended side-effect, I'm sure) would pour billions more dollars into the health-care companies' pockets.

Bill Clinton was the same way: this was a guy who pretended to be for the minority, for togetherness, etc. But the first chance he got, he fucked over the gays with his "Defense of Marriage Act". Both of the Clintons seem that way to me: they will smile and tell you that they're your best friend, while preparing to stab the knife in your back.

[FSTargetDrone]

I don't understand dislike of Obama. I can see the hatred towards Clinton, but what is there to not like about Obama other than he may not have as much experience as some may like. He doesn't have nearly the kind of negative baggage that Clinton does.

One of my biggest gripes (among many) of Clinton is that I do not support the Iraq war and she did. Given a choice, I'm not going to vote for a candidate who supports it.

[General Zod]

Hillary's constant gaffes and screwups in the campaign are pretty damning when you take them all at once. For someone touting as much experience as she has she certainly hasn't planned things very well. The Medvedev name slipup, bills not being paid on time, not knowing about Texas' delegate situation, just off the top of my head.

[D.Turtle]

Their public stances towards issues are quite similar - the biggest difference is in how they are campaigning.

Which campaign has the Washington Insiders working for themselves?
Which campaign has said that every state they have lost so far (except for Illinois) is irrelevant?
Which candidate has refused to congratulate the other when losing an election?
Which campaign went negative first?
Which campaign has tried comparing the other to Karl Rove, Ken Starr, and others?
Which campaign has said that the Republican candidate is better than the other Democratic candidate?
Which campaign, in short, has done everything - consequences for the General Election be damned - to become the nominee?

Oh, and if you are worried about the general Election:
SurveyUSA just did a nation wide poll looking at a general election fight between Obama or Clinton and McCain (and the electoral votes).
Obama vs McCain: Obama: 280 Electoral Votes - McCain: 258 Electoral Votes.
Clinton vs McCain: Clinton: 276 Electoral Votes - McCain: 262 Electoral Votes

Seem close? Not if you look at the margins in those states:

Clinton 276-262 McCain:

Solid Clinton--77 (eleven or more points): AR, DC, IL, MA, NY, RI
Lean Clinton--126 (six to ten points): CA, CT, FL, ME, MD, OH, VT
Toss Up--135 (five points or less): DE, HI, IA, MI, MN, MO, NJ, NM, OR, PA, TN, WA, WV, WI
Lean McCain--136 (six to ten points): AL, CO, KS, KY, LA, MS, NV, NH, NC, OK, SC, TX, VA
Solid McCain--65 (eleven or more points): AK, AZ, GA, ID, IN, MT, NE, ND, SD, UT, WY

Obama 280-258 McCain:

Solid Obama--163 (eleven or more points): CA, CT, DC, HI, IL, ME, MD, NY, RI, VT, WA, WI
Lean Obama--66 (six to ten points): CO, DE, MA, MN, NM, OH, OR
Toss-up--186: (five points or less): AK, FL, MI, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NC, ND, PA, TX, VA
Lean McCain--25 (six to ten points): IN, MO, MT
Solid McCain--98 (eleven or more points): AL, AZ, AR, GA, ID, KY, LA, MS, OK, TN, UT, WV, WY

So, pitting Clinton vs McCain has both of them having about 200 solidly or leaning towards them, with 135 Elecotral Votes being in a toss up.

Pitting Obama vs McCain has 229 solidly or leaning towards Obama, but only 123 solidly or leaning towards McCain, with another 186 being a toss up.

In short: Clinton would have to eke out a win, constantly being on the defensive, while Obama has a solid base from which he can go on the offensive, putting into play a huge number of states that would normally be completely out of bounds for a democratic campaign.

[montypython]

Both of the Clintons seem that way to me: they will smile and tell you that they're your best friend, while preparing to stab the knife in your back.

Ever since seeing Frontline articles on the hypocritical and backstabbing BS of the Clintons a long time ago, the sooner Obama consigns them to the political ashheap the better for everybody else.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yeah, the dark horse canidate has been running a much cleaner by far campaign. I mean when going dirty, it's like comparing snowballs to toxic waste....

[General Trelane (Retired)]

yeah, the dark horse canidate has been running a much cleaner by far campaign. I mean when going dirty, it's like comparing snowballs to toxic waste....

I have nothing to offer factually, but as a Canadian who watches both Canadian and Amercian media, the above sums up my gut reaction well. I am beginning to wish Hillary would STFU already. Yet when their campaigns started, I admit to leaning more positively on her side than Obama's.