"Can Muslims be good Americans?"

[Tekore]

I know enough about Islam to know that some of this is bull, and I was curious if any of it is valid, or if it is entirely fear mongering crap.

CAN MUSLIMS
BE GOOD AMERICANS?
This is very interesting and we all need to
read it from start to finish......... and send it on to anyone who will read
it.

Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not
speaking out about any atrocities.....

Can a good Muslim be a good
American?
This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi
Arabia for 20
years.

The following is his reply:


Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon
God of Arabia.

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is
accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256) (Koran).


Scripturally - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars
of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no. . . . Because his
allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.


Socially - no. . . .. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to
make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. . . . Because
he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of
Israel and destruction of America, the
great Satan.

Domestically -
no. . . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge
his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually - no. . .
. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on
Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.


Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran
does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot
co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.


Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare "one nation under
God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to
as
Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent
names. - - - Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we

should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They
obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.


* * * Call it what you wish..it's still the
truth.
* * * You had better believe it.
* * * The more who understand
this, the better it! will be for our country and our future. The religious war
is bigger than we know or understand. . . .

And Barack
Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President? You have GOT to be kidding! Wake
up America!

Obama even says
if he wins the election, he will be sworn in on the Quran---not a
Bible!


'If we ever forget that we're one nation under God,
then we will be a nation gone under.'

Sorry if this has been posted before, my search of the forums was... unsuccessful.

[andrewgpaul]

Bullshit, of the highest order. Look how most of the references assume religiousness on the part of the reader; IIRC, the Constitution of the USA isnot founded on "biblical principles".

As for the rest, there is no "allegiance to Mecca". Islam does not "force" a man to have multiple wives or to beat them - something which has never proved impossible for Christian husbands. As for forbidding a Muslim to make friends with Christians or Jews - actually Islam is/was/should be quite accepting of other "religions of the book" (Jews are quite well treated in Iran, an officially Muslim nation, and quite a few middle eastern countries have sizeable Christian populations - Palestine and Lebanon spring to mind).

Mullahs have no official authority in Islam. Islam hasn't had a central authority since the end of the Caliphate. Even disregarding that, not all mullahs are preaching the end of America.

Oh, and the most important thing about this badly-disguised rant at Obama - he isn't a Muslim.

[Simplicius]

Basically, it says Muslims can't be "true Americans" because the US is a Christian nation and they are not Christian. Since the US is not a Christian nation, this is nothing more than bigoted email spam.

[hongi]

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon
God of Arabia.

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is
accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256) (Koran).


Scripturally - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars
of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no. . . . Because his
allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

All this applies to Jews. Therefore Jews cannot be good Americans.

Socially - no. . . .. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to
make friends with Christians or Jews.

Actually, no. See here.

Politically - no. . . . Because
he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of
Israel and destruction of America, the
great Satan.

No, Muslims only submit to the will of God. Islam has no defined clerical structure that one follows, it only has spiritual guiders. You don't have to follow them in anything.

Domestically -
no. . . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge
his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Actually, the Qur'an 'allows' a beating and doesn't instruct Muslims to do so. Most Muslim scholars have interpreted this beating as a 'mild' tapping, and highly discourage circumstances leading to this situation in the first place. As for polygamy, it is allowed by Islam. Just like the great Biblical prophets David, Abraham etc.

Intellectually - no. . .
. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on
Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

You might have a valid point on this one, some extreme fundamentalists think that a Muslim cannot live under man-made laws. Most Muslims don't think this way, which is why many Muslims go out and vote.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran
does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot
co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Yes, Islam is an absolute theocracy. Christianity on the other hand is an absolute monarchy, what's new?

[Frank Hipper]

Unadulterated bullshit from the get-go.

"Good American" is a term that shrieks "Right Wing Nationalist Scum"; what the fuck is wrong with "Good Citizen"?

[andrewgpaul]

Domestically -
no. . . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge
his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Actually, the Qur'an 'allows' a beating and doesn't instruct Muslims to do so. Most Muslim scholars have interpreted this beating as a 'mild' tapping, and highly discourage circumstances leading to this situation in the first place.

I have heard it suggested that the words in question are ambiguous, and taken literally, only mention motions of the arm. It's up to you whether this means ad admonitory waving of a finger, or a beating.

[Wicked Pilot]

And Barack Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President? You have GOT to be kidding! Wake up America!

Obama even says if he wins the election, he will be sworn in on the Quran---not a Bible!

'If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.'

Seriously

[Spyder]

Word swap time...

CAN CHRISTIANS
BE GOOD AMERICANS?

Can a good Muslim be a good
American?
This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Texas for 20
years.

The following is his reply:


Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Jesus and nothing else.

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is
accepted by His God except Christianity "Know that I am the one true God and thou shall have no other Gods before me."


Scripturally - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to the ten commandments and not the constitution. (note: you shouldn't really delcare allegiance to a founding document either, but that's another discussion ~Spyder)

Geographically - no. . . . Because his
allegiance is to Isreal, waiting for 'God's chosen' to kick off the rapture.


Socially - no. . . .. Because of his allegiance to Christianity, while not outright forbidding, is going to prefer that he makes Christian friends.

Politically - no. . . . Because
he must submit to the will of Isreal.

Domestically -
no. . . . Because he is instructed to marry a women and beat and stone
his wife when she disobeys him (Old testament).

Intellectually - no. . .
. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it does not respect the establishment of any one religion.


Philosophically - no. . . . Because Christianity, Jesus, and the Bible
do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Christianity cannot
co-exist. Every devout Christian government is either dictatorial or autocratic.


Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare "one nation under
God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, where as the God we're actually worshipping wants us to wage war in the middle east in order to protect our own interests. - - - Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL CHRISTIANS in this country. - - - They
obviously cannot be both "good" Christians and good Americans.


* * * Call it what you wish..it's still the
truth.
* * * You had better believe it.
* * * The more who understand
this, the better it! will be for our country and our future. The religious war
is bigger than we know or understand. . . .

Now, try it with atheism.

[Rye]

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon
God of Arabia.

Firstly, there is no theological aspect of being a "good American". Secondly, Allah just means "God". Jews and Christians when speaking in arabic will refer to their gods as Allah. Allah the moon god is from the preislamic religion of Mecca, it is not the same god as the one in the quran, which is clearly a variant of the abrahamic god. IIRC, "Al Ilah" the god has a root in the heb word for God "el". In fact, let's just exchange the anti-islamic note in the rest of this for anti-jewish rants instead.

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to El, the canaanite patriarch god who lives atop mount Zaphon and commands the pantheon.

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is accepted by His God except Judaism (10 commandments).

Scripturally - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to the Torah and the Old Testament.

Geographically

How can you be a geographical good American? I genuinely do not understand this one. Do Americans worship Washington DC?

Socially - no. . . .. Because his allegiance to Judaism forbids him to
make friends with Christians or Muslims.

Politically - no. . . . Because he must submit to the rabbis (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel's enemies, the illegal settlement of the west bank (knowing full well the murderous tensions this causes) and destruction of the muslims.

Domestically - no. . . . Because he is instructed to marry as many women as he wants women and beat and scourge his slaves when they disobey him (OT quotes).

Intellectually - no. . . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on secular principles and he believes the OT to be true.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Judaism, Moses, and the Torah
do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Judaism cannot co-exist. Every theocratic government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare "one nation under
God," we refer to JESUS, not to the god of the unbelieving jew, the same ones that crucified our Lord - Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL jews in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both "good" jews and good Americans.


* * * Call it what you wish..it's still the
truth.
* * * You had better believe it.
* * * The more who understand
this, the better it! will be for our country and our future. The religious war
is bigger than we know or understand. . . .

And Barack
Hussein Obama, a Jew, wants to be our President? You have GOT to be kidding! Wake
up America!

Obama even says
if he wins the election, he will be sworn in on the Torah---not a
Bible!

'If we ever forget that we're one nation under JESUS, then we will be a nation gone under.'

Absolute drek from some lying douchebag.

[Tekore]

Thanks for that, its nice to have some counterpoints to that type of drivel.

[hongi]

]Actually, no. See here.

Woops. The actual link is here.

[Darth Servo]

I posted something rather similar in another "Let's label Obama a hate-mongering Muslim" thread although it didn't generate much discussion there.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Change a little wording and damn near all of those will apply to Christians and Jews too. Apparently, only those who have no religion can technically be "good Americans"!

[Shroom Man 777]

Let's just brand those ungood unamerican unpatriotic Muslims with crescent-shaped patches and put them in Happy Superfun Muslim Work Camps! Work will set you free(market capitalism)!

[Guardsman Bass]

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon
God of Arabia.

They said the same thing about Catholics as late as 50 years ago - that if a Catholic was elected President, the next day the Pope and his court would pack up and settle down in the White House, and soon the whole farm would be overrun with Catholics and drunken Irishmen.

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is
accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256) (Koran).

So what? Judaism tells its followers to smash the "false idols" of other religious worshippers. All of the religions have clauses in their holy books which everyone conveniently ignores for the most part (part of the problem with fundamentalists is that they frequently don't ignore them).

Scripturally - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars
of Islam and the Quran.

Because, of course, muslims can't possibly distinguish between political loyalty and religious loyalty. I imagine quite a few Turks will be disappointed to hear that, along with followers of just about every other religion.

Geographically - no. . . . Because his
allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Just like Catholics' only loyalty is to Rome, right?

Incidently, this part is singularly amusing. Considering how much of a nuisance this has become (this whole "muslim manchurian candidate" issue), one would think that if Obama actually were a closet muslim, and actually did pray five times a day, somebody would have made a video of it and put it on Youtube. Guess not -but he'd probably argue that that's simply evidence of how secretive he is!

Socially - no. . . .. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to
make friends with Christians or Jews.

You could have fooled the congregation of the church he's been going to for over 10 years.

Politically - no. . . . Because
he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of
Israel and destruction of America, the
great Satan.

Which mullahs?

One of the things about Islam is that it has never had anything like a single organized structure that was considered the source of true dispensation (unlike Christianity, in which at least for a time had its dogmatic dispensation crystallized around the organized Catholic Church). There is the Quran and Hadiths, but for every fatwa issued by a scholar on a certain issue, there is another scholar probably issuing a fatwa with the exact opposite opinion.

That's partially what makes what the Turk religious leaders are doing in revising the Hadiths' interpretations possible.

Domestically -
no. . . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge
his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Since everyone in the world follows every aspect of their religious books to a complete T . . .

Intellectually - no. . .
. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on
Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

My ass it was based on Biblical principles. But then, expecting an intellectual understanding of the philosophical underpinnings of the American Constitution and its Founders (particularly the key founder, James Madison) is probably beyond somebody so stupid that he probably believes everything that comes to him via e-mail.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran
does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot
co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Aside from Turkey, of course. And Indonesia, although that is relatively recent. But I guess they don't count as "true muslims", since they aren't dirty A-Rabbs .

Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare "one nation under
God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to
as
Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent
names. - - - Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we

should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They
obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

I think the Jews of the Middle Ages, the Cathars, the non-trinitarians, most of the native american populations of the 1500s, and the multiple victims of the Inquisition would be glad to hear that the Christian God is kind and loving, unlike that dirty Allah a couple thousand miles east (again, it would probably be too much to ask from this idiot for him to understand that "Allah" is simply "God" in Arabic).

* * * Call it what you wish..it's still the
truth.
* * * You had better believe it.
* * * The more who understand
this, the better it! will be for our country and our future. The religious war
is bigger than we know or understand. . . .

Why is that all the fearmongering retards also happen to be among the world's worst spellers on the internet?

And Barack
Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President? You have GOT to be kidding! Wake
up America!

I agree! Let's go get rid of those stinking Catholics, too! I mean, we've just been sitting down on the job for 50 years - who knows how deep the diabolical Papacy has sunk its roots into the US government in order to suit its cabalistic ways!

Obama even says
if he wins the election, he will be sworn in on the Quran---not a
Bible!

This is why Factcheck.org exists. Obama swore in on a bible, not a Quran.

'If we ever forget that we're one nation under God,
then we will be a nation gone under.'

This type of bullshit unnerves me, because you don't know how many people actually believe it. What if Obama actually loses a swing state due to the presence of a bunch of retards who actually believe this stuff?

[Darth Onasi]

Change a little wording and damn near all of those will apply to Christians and Jews too. Apparently, only those who have no religion can technically be "good Americans"!

Of course, these idiots work on the basis that America is a Christian fundamentalist state, founded on biblical principles because all the founding fathers were guided by the Christian God.
One nation under God! In God we trust! Let's just forget those phrases were added later by right-wing crackpots.

[ray245]

Seriouly I got a feeling the most americans NEEDS to be brainwashed to see the truth...

[Ghost Rider]

Seriouly I got a feeling the most americans NEEDS to be brainwashed to see the truth...

Are you going to fucking contribute something then spam, retard?

[Baal]

The article is complete bullshit.

What is also bullshit though is to tear the arguement down using the Koran. It really doesnt matter for shit what the Koran says.

What matters is what many people say it means or use it as an excuse to act a certain way. Very little of Arab society in the Middle East can be supported by actual texts within the Koran. That does not remove teh simple fact that large numbers of Muslims SAY it does and act accordingly.

[TC Pilot]

If we're going to be worried about some "closet-[insert non-Christian religion]" candidate, it should be McCain. Who knows what they did to him in Vietnam. Oh my God, McCain could be a Buddhist monk in disguise in preparation for a holy crusade to free Tibet!

[Wyrm]

Answer to the OP: The non-fuckwit muslims can.

Then again, this applies to any religion.

More to the point, I consider the fuckwit Christians to be some of the most un-American Americans I can think of.

[Master_Baerne]

Bullshit, of the highest order. Look how most of the references assume religiousness on the part of the reader; IIRC, the Constitution of the USA isnot founded on "biblical principles".

"Senator, you placed your hand on the Bible ans swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." And if one isn't Christian, it isn't a Bible.

Enough said.

[Elfdart]

That whole diatribe reads like something out of Der Sturmer, only with the word "Muslim" substituted for "Jew".

[OmegaGuy]

Why do people keep saying Muslims worship the moon? Is it because there's a moon in the symbol for Islam?

[Wicked Pilot]

Why do people keep saying Muslims worship the moon? Is it because there's a moon in the symbol for Islam?

To disassociate Allah from God of the Old Testament.