Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

[Firethorn]

I have a PA P-14 .45 ACP which is a double stack .45 ACP and it fits just fine in my hand the same as a Glock 21 and H&K USP which I have also fired fits just fine in my hand. There might be a revival in 10mm also there might also be more Auto-Guns getting released in .44 Magnum also.

Fits your hand, perhaps, I'm referring though to a fairly substantial portion of the population that it doesn't. Like I said, I'm slightly below average in size, plus I have relatively short fat fingers.

The problem that I have with is basically unless you are getting a Desert Eagle you are stuck with revolvers for .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum.

Remember the differences between rimmed and non-rimmed ammo.

The problem with a revolver is that you got six rounds are and you are done. With a P-14 in .45 ACP I got 14+1 rounds of .45 ACP and within seconds I can have 14 more rounds in the gun.

Ever hear of a cutting edge device known as 'speed loaders'? With them a practiced individual can keep up a rate of fire just as high as somebody using a semi auto. Then there's always moon clips. I also have a seven shot .357, so there can be higher capacity guns.

Heck, you could keep up a fairly high rate of fire with a single shooter - firing a far heavier round.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that it might be the case that 6 rounds of a magnum revolver caliber that can reach vital organs might be better than 14 rounds of .45 that can't.

[Setesh]

Maybe I missed in in the reams of bitching but did he say anywhere about arming 'everyone' in hell with Garands? For the well trained soldiers who need a very accurate, high stopping power, ammo conserving weapon, the garand is a good choice. As the resistance grows they may (and probably will) find a lot of WWI and II soldiers from all sides down there. Soldiers for whom the learning curve for the M1, from the weapon they trained with, will be a matter of an hour at most. When the resistance starts to get to the size supplying M1s is a problem they'll switch to something more economical needing less training time for the totally untrained or innate skill. The AK-47 comes to mind.

[Stuart]

Maybe I missed in in the reams of bitching but did he say anywhere about arming 'everyone' in hell with Garands? For the well trained soldiers who need a very accurate, high stopping power, ammo conserving weapon, the garand is a good choice. As the resistance grows they may (and probably will) find a lot of WWI and II soldiers from all sides down there. Soldiers for whom the learning curve for the M1, from the weapon they trained with, will be a matter of an hour at most. When the resistance starts to get to the size supplying M1s is a problem they'll switch to something more economical needing less training time for the totally untrained or innate skill. The AK-47 comes to mind.

Not in Hell, on earth. As Part 22 showed, there isn't anywhere that isn't in danger from random attacks. So, there's a need for a Home Guard style Army that can guard key locations. The Garand/M1A derivatives are ideal for that while the Regular Army gets the modern stuff. Giving automatic weapons to the Home Guard is a bad idea. They'll spray bullets all over the place.

[Mr. Coffee]

Not in Hell, on earth. As Part 22 showed, there isn't anywhere that isn't in danger from random attacks. So, there's a need for a Home Guard style Army that can guard key locations. The Garand/M1A derivatives are ideal for that while the Regular Army gets the modern stuff. Giving automatic weapons to the Home Guard is a bad idea. They'll spray bullets all over the place.

Are we also going to see a national carry permit and manditory firearms training?

[Firethorn]

Are we also going to see a national carry permit and manditory firearms training?

I'd see a vermont/Alaska carry system: IE your 'permit' to carry is the fact that you're allowed to own it (IE not a felon or been legally committed).

In addition, given the calibers we're talking about, I see a resurgence in open carry, which is legal in quite a few more states. The police will just turn a blind eye to the weapons being loaded in some areas with laws/regulations against that.

A 44 mag isn't a CCW weapon for many people smaller than Shaq.

At this point I'd probably be running around with either my weatherby or my garand.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I imagine the Supreme Court's ruling on gun control may get slightly skewed in the Armageddon-verse. We actually now NEED well-regulated local militias to get a handle on Baldricks.

[Setesh]

Not in Hell, on earth. As Part 22 showed, there isn't anywhere that isn't in danger from random attacks. So, there's a need for a Home Guard style Army that can guard key locations. The Garand/M1A derivatives are ideal for that while the Regular Army gets the modern stuff. Giving automatic weapons to the Home Guard is a bad idea. They'll spray bullets all over the place.

Ah, I must have misread the beginning of the 'Garands are bad' bitching. For a home guard its a pretty good notion as well. Its not as though retooling to build these them will be difficult for any current semi-auto rifle manufacturer. John Garand got production up to 500 rifle a day in the first 6 months and he had to build some of the machines used to make the internals.

[Brovane]

I have a PA P-14 .45 ACP which is a double stack .45 ACP and it fits just fine in my hand the same as a Glock 21 and H&K USP which I have also fired fits just fine in my hand. There might be a revival in 10mm also there might also be more Auto-Guns getting released in .44 Magnum also.

Fits your hand, perhaps, I'm referring though to a fairly substantial portion of the population that it doesn't. Like I said, I'm slightly below average in size, plus I have relatively short fat fingers.

The problem that I have with is basically unless you are getting a Desert Eagle you are stuck with revolvers for .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum.

Remember the differences between rimmed and non-rimmed ammo.

The problem with a revolver is that you got six rounds are and you are done. With a P-14 in .45 ACP I got 14+1 rounds of .45 ACP and within seconds I can have 14 more rounds in the gun.

Ever hear of a cutting edge device known as 'speed loaders'? With them a practiced individual can keep up a rate of fire just as high as somebody using a semi auto. Then there's always moon clips. I also have a seven shot .357, so there can be higher capacity guns.

Heck, you could keep up a fairly high rate of fire with a single shooter - firing a far heavier round.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that it might be the case that 6 rounds of a magnum revolver caliber that can reach vital organs might be better than 14 rounds of .45 that can't.

The problem is a revolver is never going to be able to achieve the same sustained rate of fire as a high capacity auto-pistol even if that revolver has speed loads. After you have fired 6-7 seven shots in a revolver you have to stop and reload. With a high capacity auto-pistol you can just keep on going.

What might make a good round is a .357 SIG round. The round is 125 grain at 1350 ft/s so you get good penetrative ability. What might make a good weapon is the S16-40 from Para Ordnance in .40 S&W with a 16-round magazine. You drop in a new barrel for .357 SIG and you essentially have a weapon with 16 rounds of .357 SIG ready to go. You get a +2 magazine and now you have 18 rounds. Carrying this gun with 3 extra magazines you can essentially have 72 rounds of .357 SIG ready to go.

Basically from what I can tell with these Demons any pistol caliber is going to have a tough time stopping these creatures. However maybe having a S&W Revolver with 5 rounds of .500 S&W Magnum will stop one of these Demons.

[kdahm(the same one)]

I'm saying that for mass manufacture, there are better alternatives that use less resources. The machining requirements for a Garand are horrendous, and significantly higher than for most other semiauto firearms. I started counting once and stopped when I passed forty seperate machining steps for the reciever alone. The hammer needs another five to ten, the trigger housing at least twenty more, and bending the op rods so the thing functions right is a nightmare.

Personally, in the Baldrick universe, I'm ordering a .375 Whelan barrel ASAP for my Garand (because it's a drop in fit, unlike the .458 Win), and hitting the gun store for a 44 mag semi-auto when it opens. I like shooting the Garand because it fits me, its fun to shoot, and I can tinker with it. It's just not the best choice to try making 25 million copies.

[Beowulf]

If pistol calibers won't do it, then step up to rifle calibers. I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with a decently high powered, compact rifle. If in a bullpup form factor, and assuming rifle size requirements are abolished, you could probably get it in less than 4lbs, with a 20" overall length. Be very popular amongst civilians. Even with a minimum size, it could still be 26" overall length

Semi-crazy people could get a TC Contender G2 in .458 Win Magnum. Probably be really unpleasant to fire, but it would put a world of hurt on a Baldrick.

[Firethorn]

If pistol calibers won't do it, then step up to rifle calibers. I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with a decently high powered, compact rifle. If in a bullpup form factor, and assuming rifle size requirements are abolished, you could probably get it in less than 4lbs, with a 20" overall length. Be very popular amongst civilians. Even with a minimum size, it could still be 26" overall length

I'll note that I started the whole pistol debate with a disclaimer along the lines of 'for those unwilling or unable to carry a large caliber rifle'.

A bullpup firing something along the lines of a 10mm or higher type round would be fairly light, controllable, and able to stop a baldrick with repeated fire. Though if you're talking about custom tooling/future production, I'd go with at least a .308 round for it.

Yes, a Garand requires more tooling than some rifles. Yes, you can pretty much stamp out a M16 or AK47, but they don't necessarily have the strength required, and a Garand is pretty simple for tearing down/rebuilding while remaining very strong.

Sure, you have to do more with each part, but you have a lot fewer of them hanging around.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

The problem is a revolver is never going to be able to achieve the same sustained rate of fire as a high capacity auto-pistol even if that revolver has speed loads. After you have fired 6-7 seven shots in a revolver you have to stop and reload. With a high capacity auto-pistol you can just keep on going.

What might make a good round is a .357 SIG round. The round is 125 grain at 1350 ft/s so you get good penetrative ability. What might make a good weapon is the S16-40 from Para Ordnance in .40 S&W with a 16-round magazine. You drop in a new barrel for .357 SIG and you essentially have a weapon with 16 rounds of .357 SIG ready to go. You get a +2 magazine and now you have 18 rounds. Carrying this gun with 3 extra magazines you can essentially have 72 rounds of .357 SIG ready to go.

The .357 SIG is of questionable utility even against the presumably more-gracile succubi (recall the Bill Clinton vs. Succubus scene.) Honestly, I'd take the .40 S&W over the .357 SIG for the advantage in momentum. A good 155 grain load will deliver just over 1200 ft/sec for roughly identical KE, but higher momentum. Though I tend to be of the opinion that attempting to use the sort of firearms paradigms that apply to self-defense against humans is going to be an excellent way to get killed and eaten, as what make for good loads against people aren't as good against modest-sized animals, and just about useless against large, dangerous game.

Basically from what I can tell with these Demons any pistol caliber is going to have a tough time stopping these creatures. However maybe having a S&W Revolver with 5 rounds of .500 S&W Magnum will stop one of these Demons.

From what we've seen, I suspect the .500 S&W Magnum could do it with rounds still in the cylinder afterwards (with the right bullet.) Against baldricks, the only semi-auto pistol I'd really be willing to trust would be an M1911-type pistol with a .460 Rowland drop-in conversion. (230 grain bullet at 1335 ft/sec FTW!)

Otherwise, I'd prefer a revolver. A big-bore with the ability to fire big hunks of deep-penetrating, hard-cast lead slugs with wide tissue-crushing noses (I'll settle for a load with Hornady's excellent XTP bullet too.) Preferably a revolver chambered in the same caliber as my handy lever-action rifle.

[KlavoHunter]

For those who are of wimpy wrists, yet want to carry something around that can blast a Baldrick, wouldn't it be suitable for people who make big-bore revolvers to make versions of it with a shoulder-stock?

Think something like this, but it's instead a revolver now in one of those "novelty calibers", that suddenly seem to be just the thing to put a big hole in a big, nasty Baldrick.

I say revolver, because revolvers naturally deal with the pressure of a big cartridge more easily, due to the cylinder being a big chunk of steel.



But if we want to start changing things up, I could think of a carbine of some sort being sold - firing rifle-calibre rounds from a shortened barrel.

[Stuart Mackey]

I agree; also revolvers in .44 magum will go like hot cakes. .44 magnum is actually a great round, most people can shoot it once they've got over the Hollywood-induced hype, its accurate and powerful. Once we get much bigger than it though, the guns become unwieldy and hard to shoot accurately.

Yeah, .44 Mag DE is not as bad as people think. It's a much bigger sidearm than I prefer, being a skinny 'lil Asian chick, but the DE action and frame soaks up .44 Mag recoil much better than a revolver does.

.44 DE is all fine and dandy, but only a .44 magnum revolver provides the excuse for Dirty Harry lines when confronted by baldrick.

[Stuart Mackey]

snippage Giving automatic weapons to the Home Guard is a bad idea. They'll spray bullets all over the place.

Well, Americans will The rest of us have more discipline

[Shroom Man 777]

I still fail to see why an autoshotgun like a USAS-12 or AA-12 loaded with rifled slugs or grenade-bullets or whatever isn't preferable. Sure, pump-action shotguns are cool because you can change ammo-types in the middle of the battlefield whereas auto-shotguns have their magazines and stuff, but so what? You're not using the thing for door-breaching or for shooting beanbags or CS smoke, you're taking on the motherfucking Army of Darkness! It's BOOMSTICK TIME!

[[R_H]]

Yep, those would be the regular magazines for the AA-12. A smaller 8-round box mag and a larger high capacity drum in the 30-40 round range are reportedly under development.

A 30 to 40 rounder! That's going to be insanely heavy (without a magazine it's already 4.76kg), not to mention a bitch to reload.

I'm saying that for mass manufacture, there are better alternatives that use less resources. The machining requirements for a Garand are horrendous, and significantly higher than for most other semiauto firearms. I started counting once and stopped when I passed forty seperate machining steps for the reciever alone. The hammer needs another five to ten, the trigger housing at least twenty more, and bending the op rods so the thing functions right is a nightmare.

How much of the Garand could be stamped instead of machined?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

For those who are of wimpy wrists, yet want to carry something around that can blast a Baldrick, wouldn't it be suitable for people who make big-bore revolvers to make versions of it with a shoulder-stock?

If you want big-bore revolver firepower in a handy rifle form-factor, then the lever-action rifle was made just for you. They come in everything from .44 Magnum to .454 Casull and .480 Ruger. And in a rifle, the typical revolver cartridge gains something like 20% to 30% velocity from the longer barrel. And down in the .44 Magnum/heavy .45 Colt power level, recoil isn't onerous. And if one wants to take a step up, there are guns in .45-70 Government as well.

I imagine you weren't talking about something like this though...

More to come.

[kdahm(the same one)]

How much of the Garand could be stamped instead of machined?

Check here for a parts list and pictures:
http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/nomenclature.html
Or Google for "M1 Garand Parts List" and some of the links that come up will have pictures. Look at the details needed on the smaller parts...

To directly answer your question: the trigger guard, rear sight cover, safety, bullet guide, part of the buttplate assembly, and a few minor parts. There are at least 32 machined parts required, some intricate, and I would say none can be substituted for stamped.

For that matter, the difference between early WWII and mid-late WWII Garands is the milled vs the stamped trigger guard. It was a different era in terms of design philosophy.

[JCady]

Yep, those would be the regular magazines for the AA-12. A smaller 8-round box mag and a larger high capacity drum in the 30-40 round range are reportedly under development.

A 30 to 40 rounder! That's going to be insanely heavy (without a magazine it's already 4.76kg), not to mention a bitch to reload.

The high capacity drum is designed for vehicle-mounted applications, not handheld use.

[Setesh]

I'm saying that for mass manufacture, there are better alternatives that use less resources. The machining requirements for a Garand are horrendous, and significantly higher than for most other semiauto firearms. I started counting once and stopped when I passed forty seperate machining steps for the reciever alone. The hammer needs another five to ten, the trigger housing at least twenty more, and bending the op rods so the thing functions right is a nightmare.

What model are you looking at? (I'm just curious)

Personally, in the Baldrick universe, I'm ordering a .375 Whelan barrel ASAP for my Garand (because it's a drop in fit, unlike the .458 Win), and hitting the gun store for a 44 mag semi-auto when it opens. I like shooting the Garand because it fits me, its fun to shoot, and I can tinker with it. It's just not the best choice to try making 25 million copies.

While yes there are other semi-auto weapons they could use, there is a very good psychological propaganda reason for using the garand. Its the gun that won WWII, giving instant public trust and faith in its ability.

That said if I was stuck in that situation I'd like to stick with my Ruger Mini-30.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

And we're back.

I say revolver, because revolvers naturally deal with the pressure of a big cartridge more easily, due to the cylinder being a big chunk of steel.

The typical .40 S&W load develops 35,000 PSI worth of pressure. The .44 Magnum develops only 1000 PSI more. The standard .45 Colt or .38 WCF (Winchester Center-Fire) cartridges only develop 14,000 PSI. The .38 WCF threw a .40 caliber 180 grain bullet at 1000 ft/sec in the 1870s, and the .45 Colt could throw a 250 to 260 grain bullet at the same velocity. The .44 Magnum will do about 400 ft/sec better in that bullet weight.

A revolver cylinder is less a big chunk of steel than it is six little chunks of steel put together. The revolver gets its power from case capacity, i.e. having far more powder to burn, over a longer period of time.

[Gerald Tarrant]

Is Luga lying?

“Is that how you come to Earth.”

“Yes. We contact a Nephilim and use our mind-mask to establish a message link. Then our leaders add more power and form a gate we can step through.”

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a human who's not wearing a tinfoil-beanie, and thus immune from unwanted hellish communication, yet somehow a portal got opened up in a random American Mall.


On a more strategic bent, the ability to open up portals at any location is pretty terrifying. Potentially the Baldricks have the ability to deposit forces into an enemy's HQ. They don't seem to have the communications to do this quickly (also they lack the information/intel to recognize command staff/HQ/valuable military locations) but if they ever organize properly, things might get dicey for allied command staff..

Fortunately the Baldricks revealed this ability without exploiting it properly. A heavier attack including harpies could have been much more devastating.

There may be pressure to start mounting spoiling attacks into Hell, since local defenses are probably going to be inadequate until more production comes on line. Also, the mobility that portals grant could allow Baldricks to have numerical superiority everywhere they attack. At the moment they might not realize they need it.

I just have to say, playing a Devil's Advocate (unintentional bad pun) the Baldricks could open a portal to Paris, let several million troops (or how ever many are needed to overwhelm local defenses) loose. Bring them back once the city has been thoroughly ransacked and battered. And they can do this for several cities a day, simultaneously rinse and repeat as often as they wish, and still maintain a large field force. The full extent of this ability depends on how much Luga is lying. Maybe one Demon can go through without a Nephilim for making portals, but big portals require Nephilim? Or maybe the Baldricks don't have much accuracy. But if the Baldricks ever get competent command staff, things get very nasty for supposedly safe areas.

Whatever the case, getting proper reaction forces set up is imperative. Also the old Civil Defense (predecessor to FEMA) organizations may need to be revived (probably everywhere) to provide adequate local responders. And this development may force military planners to up their time table for attacking Hell, to put in spoiling attacks, so we don't get quite so many portal storms.

[JCady]

The problem is a revolver is never going to be able to achieve the same sustained rate of fire as a high capacity auto-pistol even if that revolver has speed loads. After you have fired 6-7 seven shots in a revolver you have to stop and reload. With a high capacity auto-pistol you can just keep on going.

What might make a good round is a .357 SIG round. The round is 125 grain at 1350 ft/s so you get good penetrative ability. What might make a good weapon is the S16-40 from Para Ordnance in .40 S&W with a 16-round magazine. You drop in a new barrel for .357 SIG and you essentially have a weapon with 16 rounds of .357 SIG ready to go. You get a +2 magazine and now you have 18 rounds. Carrying this gun with 3 extra magazines you can essentially have 72 rounds of .357 SIG ready to go.

The .357 SIG is of questionable utility even against the presumably more-gracile succubi (recall the Bill Clinton vs. Succubus scene.) Honestly, I'd take the .40 S&W over the .357 SIG for the advantage in momentum. A good 155 grain load will deliver just over 1200 ft/sec for roughly identical KE, but higher momentum. Though I tend to be of the opinion that attempting to use the sort of firearms paradigms that apply to self-defense against humans is going to be an excellent way to get killed and eaten, as what make for good loads against people aren't as good against modest-sized animals, and just about useless against large, dangerous game.

Basically from what I can tell with these Demons any pistol caliber is going to have a tough time stopping these creatures. However maybe having a S&W Revolver with 5 rounds of .500 S&W Magnum will stop one of these Demons.

From what we've seen, I suspect the .500 S&W Magnum could do it with rounds still in the cylinder afterwards (with the right bullet.) Against baldricks, the only semi-auto pistol I'd really be willing to trust would be an M1911-type pistol with a .460 Rowland drop-in conversion. (230 grain bullet at 1335 ft/sec FTW!)

Otherwise, I'd prefer a revolver. A big-bore with the ability to fire big hunks of deep-penetrating, hard-cast lead slugs with wide tissue-crushing noses (I'll settle for a load with Hornady's excellent XTP bullet too.) Preferably a revolver chambered in the same caliber as my handy lever-action rifle.

I'd go for a .44 Magnum Desert Eagle, myself. The big frame and gas action soak up the recoil much better than a .44 Mag revolver; it's comparable to a .357 Magnum in felt recoil.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Someone could have taken their's off for a few seconds to run a hand through their hair or something like that. A demon reacted to an abruptly available portal by just coming through, maybe curious at why the hell portal ability has suddenly plunged worldwide down to almost absolute zero.

We may get 100% compliance in wearing the things, but 100% compliance, 100% of the time? Forget about it.