Revelation review

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-03-09 10:43pm

Everyone has the potential to become a "Talifan" when some idiotic bullshit rubs them the wrong way, it seems.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2008-03-09 10:50pm

Lord Poe wrote:Current rating at TFN: 5.91 Does anyone know where the ratings are kept (if any) for EU books?

The rating would be even lower if they let people revise their scores--several of them requested the ability to down-grade their initially high marks. I wonder if I should bother to dig up my old TFN account just to slam on the book. May not be entirely fair since I have no intention of reading it, but given the reviews and my knowledge of KT's MO, I think I still have a nigh-perfect idea of what's in the book.

QuentinGeorge · Post by **QuentinGeorge** » 2008-03-09 11:12pm

The first page of that thread has links to previous reviews.

Fury, the previous entry in LOTF, received a 8.5 average.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2008-03-10 12:49am

Lord Poe wrote:Current rating at TFN: 5.91 Does anyone know where the ratings are kept (if any) for EU books?

Yes, they can be found here:

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 7694330/p1

With the current rating, it's the lowest rated novel.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2008-03-10 01:59am

to be honest, the SW franchise survived KJA and any number of bad authors, stories or execution(DE II, I'm looking at you). It may be time for a good old holocron re-write, deleting the mass of stories. As it is, the post Yavin to Endor era is simply too chock full of Luke/Han stories to cram in anything else, and comic book authors keep insisting on doing so, what with the new prequel revelations and so forth.

Clean up the Yavin to Endor period and prohibit anymore stories regarding Luke/Han and gang, correct the timeline post Endor to JAT and then finalise the equipment/droid list.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-10 02:11am

PainRack wrote:to be honest, the SW franchise survived KJA and any number of bad authors, stories or execution(DE II, I'm looking at you). It may be time for a good old holocron re-write, deleting the mass of stories. As it is, the post Yavin to Endor era is simply too chock full of Luke/Han stories to cram in anything else, and comic book authors keep insisting on doing so, what with the new prequel revelations and so forth.

Clean up the Yavin to Endor period and prohibit anymore stories regarding Luke/Han and gang, correct the timeline post Endor to JAT and then finalise the equipment/droid list.

havokeff wrote:...my solution is just a simple reboot. Every franchise does it, it is our time.
Just throw everything out. Start fresh with just the movies, now that we have their complete story, and anything Lucas actually has a hand in, The Clone Wars, SWTV whatever.

No one has to have hurt feelings or anything, and it doesn't demean what previous authors have done, but it gives a new opportunity to a new group of creators.

I think this could actually be done in a really cool way and could bring some excitement back into the EU. LFL could make a big ass deal about it, countdowns and such. Have it coincide with the premiere of the live action show or maybe one of it's later spin offs. like D-Day... or EU-Day.

There is no reason you couldn't even bring back the same characters and use them again, but at least this way someone or some bodies could keep track of who, what, where why and when. Keep it all running smooth. Even you know, have some ground rules.

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-03-10 02:15am

to be honest, the SW franchise survived KJA and any number of bad authors, stories or execution(DE II, I'm looking at you). It may be time for a good old holocron re-write, deleting the mass of stories. As it is, the post Yavin to Endor era is simply too chock full of Luke/Han stories to cram in anything else, and comic book authors keep insisting on doing so, what with the new prequel revelations and so forth.

Stradleyism! Blasphemy!

For my own part, I don't give a rat's a**, uh, er, a flying f***, well, I mean, I can't really get very excited about maintaining a continuity that I feel is not only riddled with errors and contradictions, but also includes so many really silly (and I mean really, truly stupid and awful) stories (sorry, that's just my opinion).

Not necessarily. I just think that stories which don’t fit the “facts”-- either because the facts have changed with the release of the Prequel Trilogy, or because they just never made much sense in relation to the reality portrayed in the films -- should be jettisoned. However, before the fanboys start jumping, let me quickly point out that what I want has nothing whatsoever with how LF deals with its continuity.

I’m a firm believer of not mentioning inconvenient events or “facts” from the EU. Not contradicting them, but just not letting them interfere with the telling of a good story. For instance, I have no problem with fans wanting to believe that a species of big green bunny rabbits exists in the same galaxy as Luke, Leia, and the others, but I don’t have to allow them in our comics.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-10 04:12am

PainRack wrote:to be honest, the SW franchise survived KJA and any number of bad authors, stories or execution(DE II, I'm looking at you). It may be time for a good old holocron re-write, deleting the mass of stories. As it is, the post Yavin to Endor era is simply too chock full of Luke/Han stories to cram in anything else, and comic book authors keep insisting on doing so, what with the new prequel revelations and so forth.

Clean up the Yavin to Endor period and prohibit anymore stories regarding Luke/Han and gang, correct the timeline post Endor to JAT and then finalise the equipment/droid list.

It is my firm belief that the canon should be protected; the Expanded Universe is still part of what is Star Wars, and we should have to take the bad things with the good. Revisionism would likely not bring about any radical improvements in any case, seeing as how LFL's quality control has, if anything, declined sharply in recent years.

However, I am not adverse to making some kind of exception for the Traviss crap. If it is just silly, it can be kept; things that defy all possible reason and common sense, on the other hand, should be removed or ret-conned. But there are better ways to attack minimalism and insane wanking than such blunt collective punishments as mentioned above.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2008-03-10 10:18am

Darth Hoth wrote: It is my firm belief that the canon should be protected; the Expanded Universe is still part of what is Star Wars, and we should have to take the bad things with the good. Revisionism would likely not bring about any radical improvements in any case, seeing as how LFL's quality control has, if anything, declined sharply in recent years.

However, I am not adverse to making some kind of exception for the Traviss crap. If it is just silly, it can be kept; things that defy all possible reason and common sense, on the other hand, should be removed or ret-conned. But there are better ways to attack minimalism and insane wanking than such blunt collective punishments as mentioned above.

Its not bad enough that you need to throw out the entire existing canon. However, an explicit "which is canon and which isn't", as well as a detailed timeline and general backstory clearing up would be highly beneficial.
So, those energy guzzling bunnies? What was their significance? The Togs? Again, clear it up. We seen some attempts at this already, what with the existing guides and RPG backstory clearing up the Executor , ancient alien civilisation backstory and etc.
We don't need a Crisis on Infinite Earth SW. But clearly defining which stories should be Infinities or just simply "stories would help clear up and allow new readers to enter the SW timeline. A "this story occured at this time, this story occured at that time, this was "told" but didn't happen" would be highly beneficial to people trying to come up with history and benefit both new readers and authors. We aren't even talking about mimalism. Zahn can have his stories there. Tales of the New Republic where Y-wing commanders can take over entire shipyards? Fine. A squadron of fighters is enough to take over an entire world and fight off the Imperials, requiring drastic action on behalf of Luke? Cool.
However, when did that happen and where?

Instead of inventing backstory for character who appeared 3 seconds on screen, LFL personnel could do much much better to tidy up their holocron database. It MIGHT mean throwing away a huge chunk of SW stories, as there isn't enough time in a year for some of the stories to happen, but the benefits in contunity would be good. And EXPAND the no story parts as it is. ANH-ROTJ should be declared off limits for any story regarding movie characters. Or even movie events. And fix the Endor to DE timeline. The NR undergoes way too many revisions during this period and its impossible to squeeze it all in. And KJA himself is responsible for a lot of this mess, what with his Young Jedi Series, Kids series and then Star Wars for kids stories where he gave advice on.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-10 11:57am

PainRack wrote:Its not bad enough that you need to throw out the entire existing canon. However, an explicit "which is canon and which isn't", as well as a detailed timeline and general backstory clearing up would be highly beneficial.

So, those energy guzzling bunnies? What was their significance? The Togs? Again, clear it up. We seen some attempts at this already, what with the existing guides and RPG backstory clearing up the Executor , ancient alien civilisation backstory and etc.

As I said, I really do not mind allowing things that are just silly to live; as long as they are not mindlessly stupid I can stand them. My problem is that I can easily see a minor "purge" turning into an Order 66 on canon; some odds and ends are kept, while the rest is thrown away. And as an inclusionist, I would dislike that.

We don't need a Crisis on Infinite Earth SW. But clearly defining which stories should be Infinities or just simply "stories would help clear up and allow new readers to enter the SW timeline. A "this story occured at this time, this story occured at that time, this was "told" but didn't happen" would be highly beneficial to people trying to come up with history and benefit both new readers and authors.

I shall admit that limited clean-up would not hurt, providing that it was strictly controlled, so as not to go out of hand. A typical example would be the Marvel comic in which not merely Hobbie but Janson died on Hoth and Wedge turned out to be an old Tatooinian friend of Luke's. If I recall correctly, some publication ret-conned that into a fictional in-universe story.

We aren't even talking about mimalism. Zahn can have his stories there. Tales of the New Republic where Y-wing commanders can take over entire shipyards? Fine. A squadron of fighters is enough to take over an entire world and fight off the Imperials, requiring drastic action on behalf of Luke? Cool.

The mind-boggling minimalism would, in my humble opinion, be the first candidate for appropriate revision, assuming that such an event came to pass. It is not merely stupid, but a direct issue as far as suspension of disbelief is concerned.

Instead of inventing backstory for character who appeared 3 seconds on screen, LFL personnel could do much much better to tidy up their holocron database. It MIGHT mean throwing away a huge chunk of SW stories, as there isn't enough time in a year for some of the stories to happen, but the benefits in contunity would be good. And EXPAND the no story parts as it is. ANH-ROTJ should be declared off limits for any story regarding movie characters. Or even movie events. And fix the Endor to DE timeline. The NR undergoes way too many revisions during this period and its impossible to squeeze it all in. And KJA himself is responsible for a lot of this mess, what with his Young Jedi Series, Kids series and then Star Wars for kids stories where he gave advice on.

I would not be averse to minor ret-cons and corrections, but I find it most uncomfortable to dismiss entire story arcs from canon. And "What's the Story" deserves to be eaten by a Sarlacc.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2008-03-10 02:48pm

Incidentally, I love "monocularman" from the OS thread.

monocularman wrote:I mean, in a galaxy wide conflict, there's got to be more pressing matters than what the Mandalorians, all 3 million of them, might do.

They also slowed down the story. Jacen's about to make his sacrifice, the one we've been waiting for since Bloodlines, and become a Sith Lord, when the story screeches to a halt to let us know that The Mandalorians' economy is about to recieve a boost from their new fighters. I mean, I'm happy for them and all, but that really isn't the focus of the series. Jacen's fall and his family's reaction to it is.

monocularman wrote:> 1) We know that Fett will take some future action
> that will affect Jacen or the overall plot.
> 2) The Mandalorians re-arming and forming alliances
> has implications on the Galactic Chess board.
> 3) Its almost certain that they end up in the war at
> some point, so explaining how they got all these new
> star ships and soldiers etc will play a role down the
> road.
> 4)

1. That explains why Fett is hanging around, not why the story is dwelling on the rest of the Mandalorians.
2. There are 3 million Mandalorians in the galaxy. On a Galactic scale that's a drop in the ocean. Any physical contribution they made to either side of the war would be negligible at best.
3. No explanation was needed in the NJO for the Mandalorians' brief appearance in TUF or whenever it was that they showed up. Why should one be needed in this war?

What a shot at the whole "three million clones" number. I guess that even the mods there aren't willing to argue that the number makes any sense, anymore.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2008-03-10 04:18pm

Am I led to believe that Han Solo only makes a brief appearance?

Its not like his son is ready to destroy the galaxy or anything...Just go tune up the Falcon, Han. We'll call you if something important happens.

EDIT: My post in the "discussion thread, in case it gets deleted:

I'm happy this thread exists; it helps me to steer clear of things that are Star Wars in name only. And after reading YodaKenobi's very detailed review, all I can do is shake my head. However I'm not surprised. Not in the slightest. Two things:

1. What, if anything, did Jania have to learn from...Boba Fett?

Let's see, going by the films, we learn in AOTC that Jedi actually DO engage in hand to hand combat. Or, as Jango found out, flying foot-to-the-chest combat. We learn that Mandos can be easily snuck up on and beheaded (If Mace Windu chose to do so.) We also learn that the neck area of their armor is the weakest point. We learn in ROTS that two Jedi Masters can wade through an entire batallion of Mandos guarding a Jedi temple. But that's without the Mando magic armor, of course. But then again, judging by the reviews of this book, I'd think all Mandos would need against a Jedi would be a two-by-four with a rusty nail in it.

We learn in ROTJ that the handwavium magic anti-lightsaber armor doesn't protect hand weapons, and that Mandos can't hit a target less than 12 feet away with wrist blasters. We learn that Mandos have no concept of battle tactics, or else Fett would have stayed in the air and not landed within spitting distance of a Jedi, with his back to a Wookiee. We learn that Mandos haven't perfected anti-lightsaber handwavium rope, and that you don't even need to be a Jedi Master to hit a Mando's blindside and make their highly unreliable jet packs malfunction. Oh, and we also learn that Mando scream like 12 year old girls when they fall in a pit. Or is that their war cry?

2. Am I led to believe that Han Solo only makes a brief appearance?

Its not like his son is ready to destroy the galaxy or anything...Just go tune up the Falcon, Han. We'll call you if something important happens.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2008-03-10 11:15pm

Dude, be FUCKING GLAD that Han doesn't show up.

Have you SEEN what they did to Han Solo? He's become Peter tittyfucking Griffin in the time between ROTJ and the NJO.

It's pathetic. I know this picture, shows all the Solo-Skywalker kids and their parents sitting around, and WAAAAAY in the back is poor old Han, looking befuddled and sad like an old drunk that wandered into the picture by accident.

Part of me almost wishes he'd died instead of Chewie. At least he'd go out with some class, instead of the inglorious death from kidney failure or whatever he's headed towards now.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2008-03-11 12:08am

Where were the Mandalorians on the top #100 list in SW Insider...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2008-03-11 12:40am

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Dude, be FUCKING GLAD that Han doesn't show up.

Have you SEEN what they did to Han Solo? He's become Peter tittyfucking Griffin in the time between ROTJ and the NJO.

On the OS, one of the people was arguing that Boba Fett was teh awesomez and can take down a Sith Lord, since only Lando and Han have ever gotten the better of him. The next guy quotes him and points out the obvious: "Lando. And. Han."

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2008-03-11 01:03am

Master of Ossus wrote:On the OS, one of the people was arguing that Boba Fett was teh awesomez and can take down a Sith Lord, since only Lando and Han have ever gotten the better of him. The next guy quotes him and points out the obvious: "Lando. And. Han."

LOL!!!

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-11 01:10am

Mange wrote:Where were the Mandalorians on the top #100 list in SW Insider...

Answer, for all those that don't get SWI... Not.

Interesting: While Boba Fett made the list at #16, the last line of his entry...

Star Wars Inside #100 wrote: The airborne Fett slammed into the side of Jabba's sail barge, before tumbling into the deadly Sarlacc's mouth.

Guess all his EU wank doesn't rate.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2008-03-11 01:11am

Master of Ossus wrote:
18-Till-I-Die wrote:Dude, be FUCKING GLAD that Han doesn't show up.

Have you SEEN what they did to Han Solo? He's become Peter tittyfucking Griffin in the time between ROTJ and the NJO.
On the OS, one of the people was arguing that Boba Fett was teh awesomez and can take down a Sith Lord, since only Lando and Han have ever gotten the better of him. The next guy quotes him and points out the obvious: "Lando. And. Han."

Link plz?

I would love to see the reaction.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2008-03-11 01:32pm

It seems as if most mods etc. over at TFN is rushing to the Revelation thread to question why people gave the novel bad reviews and to give it inflated scores.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2008-03-11 03:05pm

Mange wrote:It seems as if most mods etc. over at TFN is rushing to the Revelation thread to question why people gave the novel bad reviews and to give it inflated scores.

I saw that. THey even suggested throwing out the lowest scores! Why have scores at all, then, if you're going to pull that crap? Face it, assholes, the majority of fans are now turning, finally, after Traviss decided to blatantly slap them in the face.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2008-03-11 05:01pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Mange wrote:It seems as if most mods etc. over at TFN is rushing to the Revelation thread to question why people gave the novel bad reviews and to give it inflated scores.
I saw that. THey even suggested throwing out the lowest scores! Why have scores at all, then, if you're going to pull that crap? Face it, assholes, the majority of fans are now turning, finally, after Traviss decided to blatantly slap them in the face.

The only thing I saw like that was one person suggesting that a reader disregard the ten lowest and highest scores, to get a "less biased" view of the book's quality. Did I miss something?

Alexian Cale · Post by **Alexian Cale** » 2008-03-11 05:21pm

Pellaeon's death scene seems to debunk the idea that the man was a total coward. Did it seem cogent with the rest of his characterization and portrayal?

You'd think that any Imperial would submit to Jacen at the moment and then, the second Tahiri is gone, turn on him and attempt to kill her. Even Pellaeon's big about "honor", one would assume his will that "the Empire will always strike back!" would trump his ethics.

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-03-11 08:34pm

I love it how claims of an "anti-KT conspiracy" are now being discussed on the review thread - oh, the reach of the insidious arm of the dozen Talifans is far indeed! It can't possibly be because the book is actually awful and rubs an obviously wide variety of readers the wrong fucking way, can it?

Darth Onasi · Post by **Darth Onasi** » 2008-03-11 08:38pm

Ah yes, the Great Talifan Conspiracy.
Obviously a conspiracy George Lucas himself is part of considering it was he who had the glorious, wonderful, invincible Boba Fett bested by a blind man with a stick.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2008-03-11 11:30pm

Darksider wrote:The first Republic Commando book had none of the bullshit that characterized her later novels, and it was one of the best Clone War novels written. Her writing didn't take a nose-dive in the quality department until she got criticized for the 3 million clones number and went batshit crazy.

I recently reread Hard Contact and the difference in the tone of that book versus Traviss's following works is amazing. The few brief inclusions of Mandalorian culture (most of which are Mando profanity used by the Mandolorian merc) are simply used for flavor and the Jedi-bashing is almost non-existent. Etain is depicted as somewhat naive, but it fits given that she is a padawan and she grows by leaps and bounds in over the story, making her own unique contributions to the team's success. Even Jedi Master Zey's initial callous elitist attitude is quickly indicated to be largely a ruse to test Etain's motivations and his actions toward the end indicate his compassion for others as well as his competence.

The drastic shift in the tone of Traviss's subsequent novels and stories seems inexplicable. AFAICT from reading the various interviews, blog statements, etc., it seems like Darksider's exactly right in saying the "3 million clones" argument drove her batshit crazy. She now seems to thrive on the drama of being seen as an "iconoclast" (in her words) regardless of the increasingly tortured logic and distorted continuity necessary to accomplish that end.

I'm glad I've bowed out of the EU. I bought Triple Zero based on the quality of Hard Contact and then bought True Colors out of morbid curiosity and that was pretty much the last SW novel I'll be buying. But I have to admit I find the ongoing Travissties fascinating. I hope to someday understand how someone could go from writing a solid, entertaining novel like Hard Contact to the gawdawful bad-fanfic wank like flipping a switch.