How far did Nationalism and Facism go in the Imperial era?

[PainRack]

When Biggs was trying to convince Luke of the need to resist the Evil Empire, he pointed out that sooner or later, the Empire would come to nationalise Owen lars farm.
In G canon, we see something similar happen when the Empire took control of Bespin, seizing it from Lando.
However, lesser canon has been relatively "quiet" about this nationalisation programme. There were interference with the Bounty Hunters Guild, Kuat and Sienar enjoyed state support, Incom was nationalised, however, we never ever saw a planet that had its entire economy fully controlled by the state.Well, except for throw away slave settlements owned by the Empire, although details are lacking.

So, is Biggs statement based more on fake propaganda than facts? Was the Empire political philosophy suggestive of the State controlling minor corporations?

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe the state controlled the minor corporations by giving those minor corporations away to Their Good Friends, Big Business. Like, imagine Aunt Beru's little shop getting bulldozered and replaced by an Imperial-aligned corporate strip mall.

[Darth Hoth]

There were a number of other corporations that were "Imperialised" named in some sourcebook, although I cannot presently recall their names. Generally, however, these actions seem mostly punitive (in the Incom case, for example, after discovering the company's treacherous nature). Cloud City would be another example; even after "renegotiating", Vader was not planning to take over the colony. It was only after Lando's blatant treason against legitimate Imperial authority that such action became reality; before that, it was merely a threat.

Generally, while the Empire was certainly authoritarian, it cannot be called Communist or collectivist.

[Darth Raptor]

Remember that a lot of the galaxy's corporations were part of the CIS. That left a huge vacuum for the loyalist companies and state-owned industry to fill after the war.

[Master_Baerne]

Incom was only Imperialized after they supplied cutting-edge starfighters to the insurrection. If Boeing gave warplanes to the Iraqi rebels, what would we do?

[darthscott]

Incom was only Imperialized after they supplied cutting-edge starfighters to the insurrection. If Boeing gave warplanes to the Iraqi rebels, what would we do?

I could not agree more. I really never saw the Empire as being very socialistic. I always figured as long the companies did not give aid to the Rebels or work against Imperial interests they were left alone, an almost laissez faire system. In my opinion, the Empire only nationalized in the name of security and not for economic or philosophical reasons.

In the case of the CIS, the Empire did nationalize their holdings, but according to the Insider #84 PG 56, these holding are to be given to loyalist companies like Kuat Drive Yards, Sienar Systems, TaggeCo and Merr-Sonn. I see this more as a case of spoils of war than nationalization. I just think they may have been an authoritarian Empire and maybe a little feudal, but were nothing like the socialist and communist governments seen on Earth over the last 100 years.

So, is Biggs statement based more on fake propaganda than facts? Was the Empire political philosophy suggestive of the State controlling minor corporations?

So with that said I would definitely say that what Biggs said is largely propaganda. The Rebels were probably upset because the Empire nationalized a company who supported them and used then this as a propaganda piece.

[PainRack]

There were a number of other corporations that were "Imperialised" named in some sourcebook, although I cannot presently recall their names. Generally, however, these actions seem mostly punitive (in the Incom case, for example, after discovering the company's treacherous nature). Cloud City would be another example; even after "renegotiating", Vader was not planning to take over the colony. It was only after Lando's blatant treason against legitimate Imperial authority that such action became reality; before that, it was merely a threat.

Generally, while the Empire was certainly authoritarian, it cannot be called Communist or collectivist.

I would disagree with regards to Lando. The context given suggests that while Lando would still be in charge of Cloud City, his mining operation would now have Imperial masters, or at least, have to answer to the Empire in some form or another.

Its sorta an interesting contrast. The Empire worked mostly through local governments, adding an additional layer of bureaucracy and oversight that wasn't present in the Republic era. Other than arrogating additional powers to governors who wasn't directly responsible to their constituents, it would appear that the Empire only claim to being totalitarian is that they have a centralised military. The slavery claims and other amoral decisions were all done through a somewhat democratic process afterall.

[QuentinGeorge]

Holonet News in Insider had a brief on most of the CIS components being nationalised, with the main exception of the IGBC.

[TC Pilot]

What scant information there is on the matter of the Empire's industrial sector doesn't suggest a very strictly controlled economy. When Lando said Cloud City was not under Imperial jurisdiction, Leia immediately asked if he was part of the Mining Guild. And of course there's the Corporate Sector, which is free to conduct its internal affairs as it sees fit.

[PainRack]

What scant information there is on the matter of the Empire's industrial sector doesn't suggest a very strictly controlled economy. When Lando said Cloud City was not under Imperial jurisdiction, Leia immediately asked if he was part of the Mining Guild. And of course there's the Corporate Sector, which is free to conduct its internal affairs as it sees fit.

The Mining Guild statement actually sounds more like "protection" rather than freedom. Its you're either with the big fishes, or you're under the control of the Empire, there's no room for small operators.

Then again, we have Admiral Ozzel statement that there are thousands of uncharted mining settlements and etc.

So, anyway, it really sounds as if Biggs was reiterating Rebel propaganda then. Perhaps the propaganda started as a result of the CIS nationalisation, and surfaces repeatedly in lieu of Imperial favouritism of Kuat and other corporations?

[Ritterin Sophia]

What scant information there is on the matter of the Empire's industrial sector doesn't suggest a very strictly controlled economy. When Lando said Cloud City was not under Imperial jurisdiction, Leia immediately asked if he was part of the Mining Guild. And of course there's the Corporate Sector, which is free to conduct its internal affairs as it sees fit.

WotC's Hero's Guide has information on becoming a citizen of the Corporate Sector and how it's run. The Corporate Sector is pretty much Libertopia, it's a business run by the Executive Directorship Coard (Direx Board), this board is lead by the Executive Officer (ExO). The ExO is the equivelant of an Imperial Grand Moff, and has an advisor hand-picked by the Emperor. The second the Exo and the Direx Board overstep the boundaries whatever boundaries the Emperor or this advisor make and it's a full-fledged Imperial Territory. The CorSec is Imperial Territory in all but name.

[Darth Hoth]

WotC's Hero's Guide has information on becoming a citizen of the Corporate Sector and how it's run. The Corporate Sector is pretty much Libertopia, it's a business run by the Executive Directorship Coard (Direx Board), this board is lead by the Executive Officer (ExO). The ExO is the equivelant of an Imperial Grand Moff, and has an advisor hand-picked by the Emperor. The second the Exo and the Direx Board overstep the boundaries whatever boundaries the Emperor or this advisor make and it's a full-fledged Imperial Territory. The CorSec is Imperial Territory in all but name.

You are aware, I presume, that "CorSec" is usually taken to mean the Corellian Security Force?

[Kuja]

IIRC, the Empire forcibly nationalized that banks on Raltiir as an excuse to delete millions of nonhuman accounts.

[Ritterin Sophia]

WotC's Hero's Guide has information on becoming a citizen of the Corporate Sector and how it's run. The Corporate Sector is pretty much Libertopia, it's a business run by the Executive Directorship Coard (Direx Board), this board is lead by the Executive Officer (ExO). The ExO is the equivelant of an Imperial Grand Moff, and has an advisor hand-picked by the Emperor. The second the Exo and the Direx Board overstep the boundaries whatever boundaries the Emperor or this advisor make and it's a full-fledged Imperial Territory. The CorSec is Imperial Territory in all but name.

You are aware, I presume, that "CorSec" is usually taken to mean the Corellian Security Force?

Eh, looking it up I am, but from my understanding I didn't miss much by not reading the Corran Horn books.

[Mr Bean]

Eh, looking it up I am, but from my understanding I didn't miss much by not reading the Corran Horn books.

I'd think CorpSec would make more sense than CorSec given the books however.

But that's an aside
The real point I want to make is that spacecraft are cheap an numerous enough that it's highly possible to get yourself a ship, some mining droids and park on an astriod somewhere and start mining all by yourself, thus explaining Admiral Ozzel statement about thousands of uncharted mining settlements. Given how vast the Galaxy is and how many areas of unclaimed space remain.

Lets do a quick bit of math here
Lets say there are 50 Billion Stars in the Star Wars Galaxy, and then lets us further suppose that only 20% of those stars contain full fledged plants. Given how multi-planet systems seem to be the norm from what we've seen so far lets assume each star has two worlds.

So ten billion stars each with two planets. Twenty billion worlds in short.
Lets assume only 1% of those planets are habitable and have a race living on them, in short 100 Million habited planets. Now we have 3PO who knows 6 million forms of communication, lets assume that means there are six million alien races. And each race has it's ten worlds under it's direct control, that still leaves 40 million planets left over, never mind the other nineteen billion worlds that while not livable are most likely to contain useful minable elements.

Considering Luke's statements on landspeeder and ship costs then it's fair to assume even a backwater farmer could with ten years worth of work, scrap togther the money needed to buy a ship and some droid help. Certainly ten or twelve people working togther could do so.

Thus we have a Wild West situation where there are millions of unclaimed planets out there with mineral wealth laying about and millions of prospectors going after it, likely most simply are breaking even rather than getting rich, but it neatly explains why there can be thousands of uncharted mining settlements out there, if there are a million plus unclaimed worlds.

[Darth Hoth]

WotC's Hero's Guide has information on becoming a citizen of the Corporate Sector and how it's run. The Corporate Sector is pretty much Libertopia, it's a business run by the Executive Directorship Coard (Direx Board), this board is lead by the Executive Officer (ExO). The ExO is the equivelant of an Imperial Grand Moff, and has an advisor hand-picked by the Emperor. The second the Exo and the Direx Board overstep the boundaries whatever boundaries the Emperor or this advisor make and it's a full-fledged Imperial Territory. The CorSec is Imperial Territory in all but name.

You are aware, I presume, that "CorSec" is usually taken to mean the Corellian Security Force?

Eh, looking it up I am, but from my understanding I didn't miss much by not reading the Corran Horn books.

I would say that you did; I, Jedi is definitely one of the best Star Wars novels of all time. It even makes some sense out of the Jedi Academy sequences in the KJA trilogy. The X-wing series proper is not too bad either, if one can stand the wanking, but not at all in the same class.

[Jade Falcon]

The only other Corporation that I can think that was Imperialised was SoroSuub but that was apparently a voluntary move by the Sullustan government.

[NeoGoomba]

Heres a question. Was the HoloNet a state-run system, first by the Empire and then the NR? Or was it privately owned similar to how cable television is set up?

[Eleas]

Eh, looking it up I am, but from my understanding I didn't miss much by not reading the Corran Horn books.

I would say that you did; I, Jedi is definitely one of the best Star Wars novels of all time. It even makes some sense out of the Jedi Academy sequences in the KJA trilogy. The X-wing series proper is not too bad either, if one can stand the wanking, but not at all in the same class.

"Definitely" is a strange word to use regarding an opinion. In my own, not at all humble, opinion, "utter dreck" falls woefully short as a description of the atrocity "I, Jedi" committed onto the field of literature merely by existing. Of course, it's not as thematically insipid as Black Fleet Crisis, nor indeed as vapid in characterisation as Rogue Squadron (I grant that that would take some doing), nor as aggressively minimalist as Kevin J Anderson's childish efforts, but in terms of bad literature, I'd say it's up there with Eragon in terms of literary achievement.

Back to the subject at hand, though, Imperial Sourcebook makes it clear that the regime (and particularly COMPNOR) strove to centralize the flow of information, and made it obvious what a daunting task it was merely to monitor communication between star systems. To maintain control over a largely nationalized economy in an effective manner would be far more difficult than simple wiretapping, while there would be practically no payoff for the Empire for doing so. There is certainly no rival market to guard against in any meaningful sense, so in essence you're largely locked into the Empire's market, unless you want to live outside it. Hutt space sound good?

No, as tempting as some would find it consider the Empire evil in every sense (thus, to some, meaning it must be communist), it has far more in common with an American-style free market, albeit with competent leadership.

[Warsie]

IIRC, the Empire forcibly nationalized that banks on Raltiir as an excuse to delete millions of nonhuman accounts.

The Empire invaded and toke over the world as the bankers on Ralltiir tried to balance the human-nonhuman account worth/balance. The Empire did that, claiming sedition or something.

Also, hmm I wouldn't consider the Empire nationalistic given the scale of the galaxy. Well nationalism can include species, so it did favor humans. but some would say it favored all people (some imperial dignitaries said that IIRC; ask TC pilot for info)

[TC Pilot]

The actual ideology of the Empire (the New Order, to a degree) has never been divulged, though there seems to be little in the sources toward an expression of nationalism in favor of the Empire, mostly because there is little in the way of actual competition in dominating the galaxy. Even after the collapse of the Empire, rogue factions revolved around ambitious personalities, not any ideas of nationalistic fervor.

But we do know there exists absolutely no written or legal policy or ideology condoning xenophobia or sexism within the Empire. Individuals within the Empire certainly were: products of deep-rooted anti-alien and misogynistic tendencies in planetary cultures.

Perhaps the only two things the Galactic Empire fights for is order and civilization.

[Illuminatus Primus]

High Human Culture was a political/social ideology, but its unclear whether this was ever really sponsored or adopted at any level by the Empire (certainly not at the "pan-Empire" level or within major organs as explicit and official policy). There was certainly chicanery involving widely-held anti-alien discrimination within the pro-Imperial galactic social and economic elites and labeling sapient species "not sentient" and thus open to "domestication" (slavery).

[irishmick79]

Maybe Imperialization is more of an indicator of corruption within the empire than anything else. The empire controlled the spice production on Kessel, and tolerated (rather reluctantly) a lot of illegal trading.

Given the personality driven nature of Imperial rule, it wouldn't surprise me that the Empire had a pretty heavy patron-client system for promotion in place - if you wanted to get anywhere in the empire, you would have to have a superior officer or leader nominate you or support you in your efforts. This style seems to be pretty pervasive at the highest levels of the Imperial bureaucracy, with entire careers being made and broken by the support or opposition from one or two superiors.

Also, I suspect there might be a pretty strict nomenklatura system based on species in place that also contributes to the decision of whether or not to Imperialize a corporation. It sure doesn't seem to make sense for the Empire to Imperialize a corporation like SoruSuub, since it generates a lot of resentment amongst the locals, forces the empire to spend resources on maintaining order, and such.

It especially doesn't make sense when you think that the Empire could just use its courts system to haul the offending smugglers or conspirators within the corporation to trial and their eventual executions. That would send just as strong a message to anyone potentially interested in leading a corporation which has supplied the insurrection with war materiel as outright occupation.

The Empire would have to find support for the insurrection to be pervasive throughout the entire company for it to think that Imperialization is the only realistic option, I would think. That doesn't appear to be the case in any of the companies that are known to have been Imperialized. Even Inacom still managed to exist under Imperial rule, suggesting that a strong core of the company employees either had imperial sympathies or were outright imperials. If there wasn't that support there and the majority of the company really did go over to the rebellion, then the Empire would have simply dissolved what was left of the company and shipped any worthwile components to Kuat or Sienar, or any of the other more 'reliable' corporations.

Imperialization makes sense when you have a cadre of cronies standing by, cronies you want to make rich. It makes sense when there's a system in place where superiors reward loyal underlings with wealth and access to resources which most people wouldn't have. It makes sense when you can limit the potential pool of profits to just a few select followers.