Israelis Sue Government for Laser Cannons

[The Grim Squeaker]

Israelis Sue Government for Laser Cannons
By Noah Shachtman

Residents of a southern Israeli town want a real-life laser cannon to protect them against Palestinian rocket attacks. And they're suing the national government, for failing to provide the ray gun defense.

From 1996 to 2005, the U.S. and Israeli governments worked together on the Tactical High Energy Laser project, considered by many to be the most successful energy weapon ever built. During tests at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, the chemical-powered laser blasted 46 Katyusha rockets, artillery shells and mortars out of the sky. (Check out the video, to the right.) "All my career, I've been interested in fielding lasers," Jeff Sollee, a veteran Northrop Grumman laser scientist, told me a few years back. "THEL was as close as they come."

But generating the megawatts of laser power required for THEL -- known in Israel as "Nautilus" -- meant brewing up hundreds of gallons of toxic chemicals, like ethylene and nitrogen trifluoride. The weapons grew bulky; one proposed small-scale version was supposed to be kept in a mere eight cargo containers, each 40 feet long. A mobile THEL, on just a couple of trucks, proved to be too complex, and too expensive to contemplate. Worse, after a few shots, the lasers would have to be resupplied with a fresh batch of reactants. The logistics of hauling those toxins either through the air or across a battlefield made generals shiver. Israel eventually dropped out of the program. Then America did, too, turning its focus instead to solid-state, electric lasers.

Now, Northrop is pushing an upgraded THEL, under the name SkyGuard, which it says can fit into just three cargo containers. Newspapers have been howling for the government to put the laser defenses in place; the volume has only gone up since Hezbollah launched a series of rocket attacks against northern Israel in 2006, and since Hamas started firing longer-range rockets at southern Israel earlier this year. But the Israeli military has said that the sci-fi-esque system is still not ready for a real-world deployment.

So a group of citizens of Sderot, which has been hit by Hamas' rockets in recent weeks, is trying to force the government to set up the energy weapon defense -- by taking prominent officials to court. They're suing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, among others, for not adequately protecting the people of the Negev desert town. "The failure to utilize the currently available and inexpensive 'Nautilus' systems is gross negligence on the government and IDF's part ... result[ing] in the murder and injuring of dozens of residents of Sderot. The IDF [Israeli Defense Forces] has completely breached its duty to protect the Negev's civilians," reads a press release from the Shurat HaDin Israel Law Center, which filed the suit.

But Center director Nitsana Darshan-Leitner seems a little confused about some of the specifics of the laser system. She claims it "shot down Katyushas, Kassams and bombs with 100 percent success." Not quite. Yes, it did zap some 46 targets. But, overall, “its performance was not great,” Penrose C. Albright, a former Pentagon official who helped initiate the project, told The New York Times. “Under certain conditions you can make it work. But under salvo or cloudy conditions, you’ve got problems."

Darshan-Leitner also asserts that the old THEL is "just sitting there in New Mexico... There is a way to take it apart, bring it to Israel and rebuild it. A company [you gotta figure it's Northrop -- ed.] told me that it would take no longer than five or six months. It would cost around 50 million dollars to rebuild it, but there would be unlimited protection." The laser is, in fact, in storage in New Mexico. But that $50 million figure is about a third of what Northrop has said previously it would take to build a laser system. And, as Yiftah S. Shapir, a Tel Aviv University military analyst told The New York Times: "one guerrilla with a rocket launcher could fire 40 Katyushas in less than a minute, easily overwhelming most any defense."

Darshan-Leitner isn't just suing Israelis, however:

"We filed suit on behalf of forty Sderot residents who lost loved ones in Kassam rocket attacks," Darshan-Leitner said. "They're suing Egypt for helping the terrorist organizations smuggle weapons, bombs, oil and people into the Gaza Strip and Israel. Since Egypt is considered a co-participant, it is responsible for damages incurred during these attacks."

"Egypt has a relationship with Israel and America," Darshan-Leitner said. "I don't think the Egyptian government will refuse to pay."

Posted without comment.

[Sea Skimmer]

C-RAM would be significantly more sane then an array of static chemical lasers, though you’d need a number of the things to cover the area, let alone defend against a saturation attack. Anyway, its just plain retarded that world relations are allowed to exist at a point in which such an absurdly overengineeed military solution can be taken even remotely seriously.

[Stark]

Can I say 'replied without comment' too?

That said, they want a defense. Good for them. It's amusing that the writer seems to think they're being put up to it as a part of corporate maneuveruing, though.

[Stark]

C-RAM would be significantly more sane then an array of static chemical lasers, though you’d need a number of the things to cover the area, let alone defend against a saturation attack. Anyway, its just plain retarded that world relations are allowed to exist at a point in which such an absurdly overengineeed military solution can be taken even remotely seriously.

Maybe Northrop just wanted a jumble sale and found THEL in a warehouse?

[Mr Bean]

So lets review, the system costs roughly 50 million a bed, the chemicals are a total nightmare to work-with and it can handle max of four rockets at the same time. So you need at least seven to ensure 100% shoot-down on a standard 40 cell Katy. So 350million plus the Chemicals. Not exactly cheap to defend one city, and considering you need I'd say a good four or five per city, it might be cheaper to simply build 2 foot thick bunker quality roofs over everyones house rather than shell the four or five billion you'd need to protect the whole border area.

[MKSheppard]

This reminds me of the arguments against ABM - it must work perfectly the first time it's deployed - or else it's not worth buying it. Even a thin screen of just the original THEL can be thickened up significantly as more improved units arrive.

[Mr Bean]

This reminds me of the arguments against ABM - it must work perfectly the first time it's deployed - or else it's not worth buying it. Even a thin screen of just the original THEL can be thickened up significantly as more improved units arrive.

Sheppard, see the ecnomics of the situation, these things are only good for one town, each town needs at least five to handle your average salvo(20 rockets in the air at the same time)

Which means you need to spend 250 million dollars defending each border town of which Isreal has a few, they might scrap by with just defending say three of the more popular ones, but still, until they knock a zero of that price tag it's out of reach consider how dirt cheap the rocket attacks are VS the system to defend against them.


*Edit
Lets not forget what the high powered search radar would do in a urban environment.

[KlavoHunter]

Or they could take a more offensive posture, and keep Predator-style drones flying over the areas that the local militants like to launch rockets at Israel from - and whenever they spot someone with a rackful of missiles in the back of their pickup truck, blow them up with a Hellfire. Or whenever they're spotted setting up a launcher in a field.

Should nicely solve the problem of having to wait until they fire.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Again, why not just RAM launchers?

[Stark]

Or they could take a more offensive posture, and keep Predator-style drones flying over the areas that the local militants like to launch rockets at Israel from - and whenever they spot someone with a rackful of missiles in the back of their pickup truck, blow them up with a Hellfire. Or whenever they're spotted setting up a launcher in a field.

Should nicely solve the problem of having to wait until they fire.

Yeah, I bet that's a real practical idea. 24/7 coverage with drones, you say?

[Sea Skimmer]

Again, why not just RAM launchers?

RAM and C-RAM are totally different things just so you know, and the modified Sidewinder missiles used by RAM aren’t likely to reliably lock on to small ballistic rockets. Israel has at times expressed interest in C-RAM, and a proposed similar modification of the heavier caliber KDG Millennium gun, but nothing ever came of it. Supposedly C-RAM can open fire at as great a range as 2,000 meters, but that’s slant range, the effective defended radius on the ground is more like 500 meters.

[KlavoHunter]

Yeah, I bet that's a real practical idea. 24/7 coverage with drones, you say?

You're falling for the same mistake that Sheppard outlined - it doesn't have to work perfectly upon initial deployment. It does not have to be all-encompassing and perfectly reliable right off the bat.

Limited deployment and partial coverage to prove the system would be an excellent start.

[Sea Skimmer]

Or they could take a more offensive posture, and keep Predator-style drones flying over the areas that the local militants like to launch rockets at Israel from - and whenever they spot someone with a rackful of missiles in the back of their pickup truck, blow them up with a Hellfire. Or whenever they're spotted setting up a launcher in a field.

Should nicely solve the problem of having to wait until they fire.

They already do that actually, but the world tends to get pissed when the rocket launchers are in the middle of an intersection inside a refugee camp and a bunch of gawking civilians get blown away at the same time. Anyway, just look at how many places they have to look at and then remember that a UAV has one camera and one narrow field of view.

[Ace Pace]

From what I recall, the main problem with the laser system is that it doesn't work during fog. Fog is the general weather condition in Sderot-area winters. See the problem?

Then again, the alternative, Iron Dome is a rocket system that is completly ineffective against Qasams. 2

[brianeyci]

Or they could take a more offensive posture, and keep Predator-style drones flying over the areas that the local militants like to launch rockets at Israel from - and whenever they spot someone with a rackful of missiles in the back of their pickup truck, blow them up with a Hellfire. Or whenever they're spotted setting up a launcher in a field.

Should nicely solve the problem of having to wait until they fire.

You don't understand you're giving the terrorists exactly what they want with your predator drone idea with minimal military benefit.

Israel has as much an offensive posture as I can stand. I was going to bring up the shit Israel pulls but realized that might be against the Palestinian-Israel ban, so instead I'm going to point out your plan has a crucial flaw in that cameras can't see through blankets and rockets can be fired through windows and from rooftops. Hamas and Hezbollah aren't stupid, and if they are the ones who didn't eat it would quickly learn their lesson.

[KlavoHunter]

rockets can be fired through windows

Not really. The backblast would kill, or at least severely burn anyone in the room - and with the larger rockets that they're using to bombard Israeli civilians, it's entirely possible that they'd start house fires.

[Stark]

You're falling for the same mistake that Sheppard outlined - it doesn't have to work perfectly upon initial deployment. It does not have to be all-encompassing and perfectly reliable right off the bat.

Limited deployment and partial coverage to prove the system would be an excellent start.

No, it's completely different. Shep objects to people who claim developing technologies shouldn't be adopted until they're already good (ie ABM, lasers, etc) which stifles development. I'm saying a huge fleet of rotating drones to provide 24/7 loiter for the entire threat area isn't as simple as you seem to think it is, nor is the actual attack. 'Not covering the whole area' is different to 'zomg lasers suck don't bother'.

[Mayabird]

But laser cannons are SO much cooler!

How big is this town, anyway, land and population wise? I want to know how just how ridiculous it would be to have five laser cannons defending each one.

[Sea Skimmer]

Sderot is basically triangular area with each side being around 2 miles long, but that’s just the largest town around, numerous other small towns and settlements are strewn throughout the area and well within rocket range. If Sderot was well defended then some of the other towns would just become the target, as it s Sderot is attacked simply because its size makes it easier to hit with the pieces of crap the Palestinians use as weapons.

[Sarevok]

Or they could take a more offensive posture, and keep Predator-style drones flying over the areas that the local militants like to launch rockets at Israel from - and whenever they spot someone with a rackful of missiles in the back of their pickup truck, blow them up with a Hellfire. Or whenever they're spotted setting up a launcher in a field.

Should nicely solve the problem of having to wait until they fire.

What's the point of an expensive tactic like this when same amount of money can repair far more damage than the rockets do ? And what about the fact that lobbing explosives tend to kill bystanders. What happens when each fatal mistake recruits 3 new rocket operators ?

[brianeyci]

Not really. The backblast would kill, or at least severely burn anyone in the room - and with the larger rockets that they're using to bombard Israeli civilians, it's entirely possible that they'd start house fires.

There wouldn't be anybody in the room or even the building: at least there'd only be women and children and the essential personnel would be long gone. They fire through timers to avoid counter battery fire. As for house fires, they'd just use smaller rockets where possible and larger rockets from reinforced basements. These are not hypothesis or theory -- I believe an article was posted on this very forum about Hezbollah during the war unfurling prepared rockets, rockets ready for fire for years to unleash on Israel. You vastly underestimate the enemy to think they stupid enough to be even scratched by such tactics.

[brianeyci]

What's the point of an expensive tactic like this when same amount of money can repair far more damage than the rockets do ? And what about the fact that lobbing explosives tend to kill bystanders. What happens when each fatal mistake recruits 3 new rocket operators ?

Israel wankers will give a rebuttal to your point that letting your country be attacked tiny bit by bit is not a way to run a war. After all, if a US Navy ship was sunk by a Chinese missile, saying that a war with China would be too expensive then forgetting the servicement who died wouldn't be a strong rebuttal at all.

But Israel wankers forget one thing. The Palestinians have no state, at least not the Palestinians the Israelis want to kill. This isn't a war between states, and the whole point of saying your state will defend even a single man with its entire power is to deter sane states from hurting your citizens. That rationale goes out the window fighting stateless terrorists who are more than happy to get martyred. We saw how much Israel wasted its efforts in the Lebanon War in 2006 with this "no man left behind" policy. And no, a few pittance of Hezbollah legislators or a fractured government in Fatah and Hamas doesn't count.

[Ace Pace]

Sderot is basically triangular area with each side being around 2 miles long, but that’s just the largest town around, numerous other small towns and settlements are strewn throughout the area and well within rocket range. If Sderot was well defended then some of the other towns would just become the target, as it s Sderot is attacked simply because its size makes it easier to hit with the pieces of crap the Palestinians use as weapons.

Nitpick, the kibbutzim and moshavim around Sderot are also under attack, but they're far quieter about it and bear it in a differant fashion. They're less urban and therfor real damage has been lower. But it's not that they're un-targeted.

[Lancer]

Suing because they think that their government isn't protecting them is one thing, but demaning the installation of "friggin laser beams" is quite another. While they're at it, why don't they request the US naval railgun prototype for counter-battery fire, because that's going to be about as useful.

Hell, what happens if the laser system is installed, overwhemed, and a rocket hits one of the reactant tanks?

[Jadeite]

Hell, what happens if the laser system is installed, overwhemed, and a rocket hits one of the reactant tanks?

Let's not try and use fantasy scenarios as arguments against something. Given just how shitty Palestinian rockets are, that type of hit would be a one in a million (or more) shot.