Seemingly crazy scientific ideas

[Superboy]

I'm writing a thing and hit a bit of a dead end with research, I was hoping you guys could help me out.

What are some scientific theories that seem crazy but actually have some validity? Theories that seem to go against what we know about the Universe, concepts that a layperson would be blown away by, etc.

The most obvious example is the Theory of Relativity, which is pretty mind blowing the first time you learn about it.

What other theories out there are like that? I'd prefer ideas that are likely to be valid, but really any theory that has even a small possibility of being true will work.

[Darth Wong]

The wave-particle duality of light is pretty counter-intuitive. For that matter, Newton's laws of motion are still not very well understood by laypeople despite being incredibly well-tested. At a guess, I'd say that the majority of the population does not understand how it can be possible to apply force to something without doing any work on it.

[Stark]

The wave-particle duality of light is pretty counter-intuitive. For that matter, Newton's laws of motion are still not very well understood by laypeople despite being incredibly well-tested. At a guess, I'd say that the majority of the population does not understand how it can be possible to apply force to something without doing any work on it.

Back in highschool, that was a big sticking point in physics, with many arguments from 'common sense' perspectives as to why it's impossible.

[Darth Wong]

The wave-particle duality of light is pretty counter-intuitive. For that matter, Newton's laws of motion are still not very well understood by laypeople despite being incredibly well-tested. At a guess, I'd say that the majority of the population does not understand how it can be possible to apply force to something without doing any work on it.

Back in highschool, that was a big sticking point in physics, with many arguments from 'common sense' perspectives as to why it's impossible.

That was also the cause of my final falling-out with Robert Brown (of the old Millennium Falcon deckplan site fame). He insisted that I (and my physics textbook, apparently) was wrong and then dismissed contradictory real-life examples of constant force without work by saying that they are "mysteries".

Eventually, he resorted to the final fallback argument that every mindless dipshit in the world uses when confronted with science that they don't like and can't refute: he called me "close-minded". And yes, the irony was lost on him.

[Hawkwings]

Well, the sticking point there is the definition of work. If people get past that, then it's pretty easy to understand.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The biggest sticking point in my opinion, is there's not enough emphasis on the word "assumptions". I used to have that problem once, till I finally made the leap of understanding and understood how best to tackle Physics.

Of course, there are many who never make that leap.

[Mayabird]

Something that is totally valid, not really all that arcane, but totally non-intuitive, and crazy enough that it blew my mind and I ended up failing that class (the only one I ever did) is compressible flow. Once you have shock waves and things going at supersonic speeds, weird things happen. Weird, bizarre, totally mathematically explainable and everything, counter-intuitive weird stuff.

[Darth Raptor]

My brain screams when I force it to accept the almost certain truth of relativity. The idea that two completely different measurements can both be correct is so utterly incredible that I'm driven to break things with my face before I accept it. What happens to stuff near the speed of light, or at a black hole, or at the subatomic level? Whatever the equations say, the end result is always the same: I feel really fucking dumb.

[Ariphaos]

The wave-particle duality of light is pretty counter-intuitive. For that matter, Newton's laws of motion are still not very well understood by laypeople despite being incredibly well-tested. At a guess, I'd say that the majority of the population does not understand how it can be possible to apply force to something without doing any work on it.

This is almost always due to a misunderstanding of the physical notion of 'work'. I find it hard to blame the general populace for getting confused. My physics teacher had an amusing rant about separating the concepts.

My brain screams when I force it to accept the almost certain truth of relativity. The idea that two completely different measurements can both be correct is so utterly incredible that I'm driven to break things with my face before I accept it. What happens to stuff near the speed of light, or at a black hole, or at the subatomic level? Whatever the equations say, the end result is always the same: I feel really fucking dumb.

It becomes almost intuitive when you try to look at it from the perspective of what life would be like if Newton was the end of all physics. So many basic things are dependent on relativity in the first place.

[darthbob88]

Euler's formula always gives me the willies. e^(pi*i) = -1. That's two transcendental numbers interacting with an imaginary number to produce a "mere" negative number. To quote Benjamin Peirce, "It is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."

[darthbob88]

Euler's formula always gives me the willies. e^(pi*i) = -1. That's two transcendental numbers interacting with an imaginary number to produce a "mere" negative number. To quote Benjamin Peirce, "It is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."

Ghetto edit: Actually, that's not Euler's formula, that's simply Euler's Identity, a special case of the formula, which is e^(i*x) = cos(x) + i*sin(x), and no less willie-inducing for that.

[SpacedTeddyBear]

Magnetic forces don't do work. The math is easy, but the concept is a little more tricky.

[Surlethe]

Euler's formula always gives me the willies. e^(pi*i) = -1. That's two transcendental numbers interacting with an imaginary number to produce a "mere" negative number. To quote Benjamin Peirce, "It is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."

It's pretty, but it makes absolutely perfect sense when you remember that the line exp(ix), x real, is the unit circle. When you go halfway around the unit circle from 1, of course you hit -1.

As far as actually mind-blowing results, I find it absolutely incredible that we know enough about planetary mechanics that we can throw an object across the solar system and have it arrive to the second.

[cosmicalstorm]

0.9999999...= 1

That one has got to be one of the biggest mind-f**ks of all, at least for ordinary people.

[The Spartan]

0.9999999...= 1

That one has got to be one of the biggest mind-f**ks of all, at least for ordinary people.

Strangely enough I had the same problem until college. In high school, in spite of what the teacher said, I insisted that it wasn't 1, it was infinitely close to one.

Then one of my college professors showed us the proofs for it...

[Paolo]

Well, pretty much all physics outside of the classical limit is pretty counterintuitive even today.

[raptor3x]

Something that is totally valid, not really all that arcane, but totally non-intuitive, and crazy enough that it blew my mind and I ended up failing that class (the only one I ever did) is compressible flow. Once you have shock waves and things going at supersonic speeds, weird things happen. Weird, bizarre, totally mathematically explainable and everything, counter-intuitive weird stuff.

Seconded.

[Singular Intellect]

At a guess, I'd say that the majority of the population does not understand how it can be possible to apply force to something without doing any work on it.

As I recall, your example of this was a person pushing on a massive wall. They're applying force to it, but not doing any actualy work.

Although that does bring up a question...taking that specific example, if a person applies force to a wall, aren't they applying pressure with their hands, and therefore increasing the temperature at that point (however little), thus some work is being done?

[Paolo]

Although that does bring up a question...taking that specific example, if a person applies force to a wall, aren't they applying pressure with their hands, and therefore increasing the temperature at that point (however little), thus some work is being done?

You can look at it that way, but only by sacrificing the convenience of the definition of work. I'd think you'd much rather describe that kind of dynamic as heat.

[Darth Wong]

At a guess, I'd say that the majority of the population does not understand how it can be possible to apply force to something without doing any work on it.

As I recall, your example of this was a person pushing on a massive wall. They're applying force to it, but not doing any actualy work.

Although that does bring up a question...taking that specific example, if a person applies force to a wall, aren't they applying pressure with their hands, and therefore increasing the temperature at that point (however little), thus some work is being done?

No. His efficiency is zero. All of the energy he uses in this process is wasted as heat, without any real work being done. All he's doing is converting sugar to waste heat.

I suppose if you tried to rationalize the person as a heater, then he's doing work. Heaters are the only 100% efficient device we have, because they're the only kind of device where waste heat is actually considered useful.

[wjs7744]

Although that does bring up a question...taking that specific example, if a person applies force to a wall, aren't they applying pressure with their hands, and therefore increasing the temperature at that point (however little), thus some work is being done?

The question isn't if any work is being done, but if any work is being done on the wall. That's an important distinction. As Mike points out, although he is in fact expending energy, none of it is going towards moving the wall, so the only way to argue that he is in fact doing useful work is to redefine useful work. Which is basically conceding that he isn't. As for your heater, Mike, are they 100% efficient? I mean, they also glow orange, giving off visible light as well as heat, so if only the heat is considered useful work, how can they be 100%?

Speaking of counter-intuitive science, has anyone ever run across anything like this site before? When I first saw it, I thought it looked like a creationist thing, but having read more I'm fairly sure it's just a scam of some sort, designed to prey on laymen with an interest in science.

[Darth Wong]

Although that does bring up a question...taking that specific example, if a person applies force to a wall, aren't they applying pressure with their hands, and therefore increasing the temperature at that point (however little), thus some work is being done?

The question isn't if any work is being done, but if any work is being done on the wall. That's an important distinction. As Mike points out, although he is in fact expending energy, none of it is going towards moving the wall, so the only way to argue that he is in fact doing useful work is to redefine useful work. Which is basically conceding that he isn't. As for your heater, Mike, are they 100% efficient? I mean, they also glow orange, giving off visible light as well as heat, so if only the heat is considered useful work, how can they be 100%?

Radiation is still considered a form of heat transfer. But in any case, heat is not work in the context of people who believe that you cannot apply force without doing work, because they're obviously referring to mechanical work. Moreover, they are too stupid to understand that the ground beneath your feet is continuously applying force to you. I've actually had people respond to that by saying "If the ground is applying force to me, then why am I not flying up into the air?" It's sickening.

Speaking of counter-intuitive science, has anyone ever run across anything like this site before? When I first saw it, I thought it looked like a creationist thing, but having read more I'm fairly sure it's just a scam of some sort, designed to prey on laymen with an interest in science.

Did you read their "fatal science errors" page, where they try to debunk mainstream science? Funniest goddamned thing I've seen in a long time.

[Paolo]

In the US, HS graduates not exposed to college-level physics through AP or some other program generally don't touch heat transfer, so that's probably a major source of the confusion. I'd be more worried if people believed no energy transfer accompanied an applied pressure absent mechanical work, but this seems like a gross oversight if typical in HS curricula.

[wjs7744]

Radiation is still considered a form of heat transfer.

Ah, I wasn't sure if light in the visible spectrum had a similar heating effect to the lower frequency infrared that most people associate with heat. I think I may have forgotten conservation of energy somehow there. Never ask a biologist to do a physicist's job, I guess.

Moreover, they are too stupid to understand that the ground beneath your feet is continuously applying force to you. I've actually had people respond to that by saying "If the ground is applying force to me, then why am I not flying up into the air?" It's sickening.

Bloody hell, that's bad. I thought Newton's Laws were taught in high school?

Did you read their "fatal science errors" page, where they try to debunk mainstream science? Funniest goddamned thing I've seen in a long time.

You mean like when they show a possible derivation for Einstein's famous mass-energy conversion formula from other equations, and then act like this disproves it? Or perhaps their fridge-magnet example? I believe you once told a creationist in one of your hate mail pages that you could pull the same trick with electromagnetism if you tried. I guess now we've actually seen it.

[Molyneux]

Moreover, they are too stupid to understand that the ground beneath your feet is continuously applying force to you. I've actually had people respond to that by saying "If the ground is applying force to me, then why am I not flying up into the air?" It's sickening.

They explained that to us on the first day of high-school physics, and everyone got it easily. What. The. Fuck.

For me, the first time science ever blew my mind (well, really math, but close enough) was the realization of the existence of truly irrational numbers - I'd sort of understood that 0.3333... = (1/3), but when I first encountered pi my brain broke a little.