I feel you, man. I still have Hard Contact on my bookshelf, but I couldn't bring myself to buy any of the other novels when I heard what was going into them. Every once in awhile I'll pick it up, reread some of it, and walk away feeling saddened that the series had so much potential and yet dried up and died so fast.Joe Momma wrote:I'm glad I've bowed out of the EU. I bought Triple Zero based on the quality of Hard Contact and then bought True Colors out of morbid curiosity and that was pretty much the last SW novel I'll be buying. But I have to admit I find the ongoing Travissties fascinating. I hope to someday understand how someone could go from writing a solid, entertaining novel like Hard Contact to the gawdawful bad-fanfic wank like flipping a switch.
Revelation review
Moderator: Vympel
JADAFETWA
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Darth Hoth
- Jedi Council Member
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Reading up on the TFN thread, I found a curious claim that seven Mandalorians had commandeered a Star Destroyer on their own. Can someone please tell me that this is not true?
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
-George "Evil" Lucas
-George "Evil" Lucas
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Edward Yee
- Sith Devotee
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This reminds me why I left a FFN comment to Ash Darklighter's "Out of the Shadows," post-Truce at Bakura AU, chapter 35:
(Oh there's clones, but no sign of them descending from the Jango Fett template.)
P.S. At least (according to Wikipedia) Pellaeon died ordering forces to side against Caedus.
That's how bad the EU seems to me now -- at least this fanfic has NOT A FUCKING MANDO IN SIGHTSince I can't think of any specific (or timely) critiques at the moment, this is what I think of this fanfic:
I wish that THIS was the post-Endor/Bakura canon.
(Oh there's clones, but no sign of them descending from the Jango Fett template.)
P.S. At least (according to Wikipedia) Pellaeon died ordering forces to side against Caedus.
"Yee's proposal is exactly the sort of thing I would expect some Washington legal eagle to do. In fact, it could even be argued it would be unrealistic to not have a scene in the next book of, say, a Congressman Yee submit the Yee Act for consideration. 
" - bcoogler on this
"My crystal ball is filled with smoke, and my hovercraft is full of eels." - Bayonet
Stark: "You can't even GET to heaven. You don't even know where it is, or even if it still exists."
SirNitram: "So storm Hell." - From the legendary thread
" - bcoogler on this"My crystal ball is filled with smoke, and my hovercraft is full of eels." - Bayonet
Stark: "You can't even GET to heaven. You don't even know where it is, or even if it still exists."
SirNitram: "So storm Hell." - From the legendary thread
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Master of Ossus
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Here's what bugs me the most about Traviss's latest bullshit. And I mean this in all honesty: she got the definition of "Sith" wrong.
Think about that. I'm going to make a finer point, here. This is worse than her 3,000,000 clones figure. There, at least, there was no explicit statement in the films themselves that there were more than 3,000,000 clones (at least, not in the sense that one character said to another that there were X number of clones). All efforts to show that there were more clones than that have relied on real-world comparisons and inferences drawn from the films, and by (oft-times hilariously) rebutting the ludicrous ass-covering efforts that Traviss and her "Fandalorians" concocted after-the-fact (which were also explicitly refuted by the films, like the idea that the Clone Wars were merely a series of "brushfire" conflicts). Clearly, my point is not that these comparisons and inferences are invalid--far from it--I'm merely pointing out that the higher figures are not EXPLICITLY mentioned in the canon.
The definition of "Sith," though, IS in the films themselves. And Karen Traviss didn't care. She got it wrong. A Sith is not merely a fallen Jedi--had she watched Episode I she would have known this because:
1. The Jedi didn't know the Sith even existed. Had Jedi been leaving their order one at a time, they'd have known of their existence. Instead we get lines like, "Always two there are. A master, and an apprentice." CLEARLY, then, the Sith represent a particular order of Force users.
2. Darth Maul and Emperor Palpatine had never been Jedi. Palpatine was a senator, and Maul appears to have had no connections with the Jedi from the films (the novelization goes on to demonstrate conclusively that he had never been a Jedi).
Further, a fallen Jedi is not a Sith. This is a fundamental plot point from Episode II:
1. Count Dooku had left the Jedi order and the Jedi clearly knew this, but they did NOT realize that he had become a Sith.
She's totally off-base, here, and the book (I borrowed it from a friend who gave up on it) clearly indicates that this is not merely a character's view of what it is to be a Sith--it's HER view of what it is to be a Sith.
Karen's definition of "Sith" is not understandable. It is not defensible. It's just WRONG. Any casual viewer of the films--including one who has never heard of the EU or been exposed to it, would be able to tell you, unequivocally, that a Sith is not merely a fallen Jedi. Karen couldn't do that. This is out-and-out, blatant disregard and disrespect for the films. Even people who defended the 3,000,000 clone figure can have no answer to this argument.
I also cannot let go of this ridiculous Mandalorian wanking that takes place in this book. As patently absurd as some of the other feats Traviss has attributed to the Mandos (and, frankly, the entire idea that the clones are "Mandalorians" is a complete deviation from the prior EU that is in no way justified by the prequel trilogy), the scenes in which Mandalorians can BEAT UP JAINA are so easily beyond this that I refuse to sit by and say nothing.
No Mandalorian is as powerful as a Jedi Knight. Period. This point is underscored by statements like the canonical one from the AotC novelization, which states that a Super Battle Droid is slightly MORE powerful, one-on-one, than a clone. Anyone who's watched the CW cartoons will be able to say that a Jedi is significantly more powerful than a SBD, one-on-one. The scenes with Mace Windu on Dantooine are particularly illustrative, since Windu was literally able to PUNCH SBD's TO PIECES. Perhaps the better example, though, is the fight on Muunilist. In a series of skirmishes, ARC Troopers (among the best of all Mandalorian warriors) and Obi-Wan encounter Durge the bounty hunter. An entire squad of ARC troopers engages Durge and doesn't even slow him down. Kenobi, though surprised by Durge's abilities, nonetheless defeats him and forces the Banking Clan to surrender. No one who watches this scene can argue that the ARC troopers stood a chance against Durge, but Obi-Wan defeated him easily. Kenobi and Yoda easily handled an entire battalion of clone troopers when moving back into the Jedi Temple after Skywalker/Vader had killed most of its inhabitants. In fact, a juvenile Jedi was able to kill several clone troopers before, himself, being killed in front of Bail Organa.
People on the OS have been making arguments that boil down to: "Well, what if Boba Fett has a really good trap? That would even the odds against a Sith Lord." This is bullshit, and they know it. If it were simply a matter of preparing a clever trap to "even the odds" against Vader, for example, then the Jedi who survived Order 66 would have done this. Instead, Vader was able to hunt down the survivors and kill many of them personally. Everything in the EU (at least prior to Traviss) suggests that Fett is capable of fighting on the same level as Han. They're both threats to each other, and neither can take the other for granted. To say that Han would have NO CHANCE against a high-level Jedi, though, is a completely uncontroversial statement. Similarly, Lando Carlissian is not hugely overmatched by Boba Fett--again, Fett poses enough of a danger to him that Lando has to take him seriously, but Lando is not so outclassed that fighting Fett is futile. Again, to say that Lando has NO CHANCE against a high-level Jedi is a completely uncontroversial statement.
Boba Fett is a powerful, intelligent, and dangerous opponent in SW, but he is dangerous to normal characters. Jedi are NOT normal characters. They eat normal characters for breakfast. And Jaina isn't just a run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight. She's an INCREDIBLY powerful Jedi in the new order. Sorry, but NO Mandalorian has a chance against her. That's it.
Apart from all of this is the fact that Jaina had regularly fought against YV warriors in the NJO who had:
1. Immunity to Jedi precog--Jaina had to rely on normal, human faculties when fighting against them. Yet she won regularly.
2. Armor that could stop a lightsaber and by all accounts offered vastly better coverage than the beskar armor we see on Mandos.
3. Numbers--Jaina and the other Jedi were frequently engaged by multiple YV warriors.
4. Weapons and "moves" that the Jedi were unfamiliar with--the only advantage that the Mandos claim over Jaina in Rev.
None of these advantages were determinative--the Jedi overcame all of these disadvantages and regularly killed YV warriors.
Traviss has gotten to the point where she's not even writing in the same vision as George Lucas. Frankly, though, George's vision defines Star Wars. Once an author gets, inarguably, outside of George's vision they stop writing Star Wars and begin writing fanfic AT BEST. The characters in Traviss' texts can have the same name as ones in the SW universe, but make no mistake--that is NOT Star Wars. It's no better than fanfic, and I mean that, Traviss (if you're out there).
One can sort of see the authors of LotF and the editors together in a room. "Okay, everyone, we need someone to write the next novel."
[Karen's hand shoots up like she's a kindergartner with ADD] "Can there be Mandos in it?"
[All of the other authors roll their eyes.] "Fine, fine. Put your stupid Mandos in it."
"I'll do it!"
It's one thing for an author to have favorite characters that they return to. It's one thing for an author to write SW books without researching every book, comic, and videogame that deals with SW. But when an author ignores the FILMS, and gets to the point where they're not even TRYING to keep faithful to the story that all of the SW authors are trying to tell, together, then they ought to be let go. So here's my appeal to LFL: let her go. Just drop her. She's harming the Saga, and she's screwing up the other authors that are forced to deal with her.
Think about that. I'm going to make a finer point, here. This is worse than her 3,000,000 clones figure. There, at least, there was no explicit statement in the films themselves that there were more than 3,000,000 clones (at least, not in the sense that one character said to another that there were X number of clones). All efforts to show that there were more clones than that have relied on real-world comparisons and inferences drawn from the films, and by (oft-times hilariously) rebutting the ludicrous ass-covering efforts that Traviss and her "Fandalorians" concocted after-the-fact (which were also explicitly refuted by the films, like the idea that the Clone Wars were merely a series of "brushfire" conflicts). Clearly, my point is not that these comparisons and inferences are invalid--far from it--I'm merely pointing out that the higher figures are not EXPLICITLY mentioned in the canon.
The definition of "Sith," though, IS in the films themselves. And Karen Traviss didn't care. She got it wrong. A Sith is not merely a fallen Jedi--had she watched Episode I she would have known this because:
1. The Jedi didn't know the Sith even existed. Had Jedi been leaving their order one at a time, they'd have known of their existence. Instead we get lines like, "Always two there are. A master, and an apprentice." CLEARLY, then, the Sith represent a particular order of Force users.
2. Darth Maul and Emperor Palpatine had never been Jedi. Palpatine was a senator, and Maul appears to have had no connections with the Jedi from the films (the novelization goes on to demonstrate conclusively that he had never been a Jedi).
Further, a fallen Jedi is not a Sith. This is a fundamental plot point from Episode II:
1. Count Dooku had left the Jedi order and the Jedi clearly knew this, but they did NOT realize that he had become a Sith.
She's totally off-base, here, and the book (I borrowed it from a friend who gave up on it) clearly indicates that this is not merely a character's view of what it is to be a Sith--it's HER view of what it is to be a Sith.
Karen's definition of "Sith" is not understandable. It is not defensible. It's just WRONG. Any casual viewer of the films--including one who has never heard of the EU or been exposed to it, would be able to tell you, unequivocally, that a Sith is not merely a fallen Jedi. Karen couldn't do that. This is out-and-out, blatant disregard and disrespect for the films. Even people who defended the 3,000,000 clone figure can have no answer to this argument.
I also cannot let go of this ridiculous Mandalorian wanking that takes place in this book. As patently absurd as some of the other feats Traviss has attributed to the Mandos (and, frankly, the entire idea that the clones are "Mandalorians" is a complete deviation from the prior EU that is in no way justified by the prequel trilogy), the scenes in which Mandalorians can BEAT UP JAINA are so easily beyond this that I refuse to sit by and say nothing.
No Mandalorian is as powerful as a Jedi Knight. Period. This point is underscored by statements like the canonical one from the AotC novelization, which states that a Super Battle Droid is slightly MORE powerful, one-on-one, than a clone. Anyone who's watched the CW cartoons will be able to say that a Jedi is significantly more powerful than a SBD, one-on-one. The scenes with Mace Windu on Dantooine are particularly illustrative, since Windu was literally able to PUNCH SBD's TO PIECES. Perhaps the better example, though, is the fight on Muunilist. In a series of skirmishes, ARC Troopers (among the best of all Mandalorian warriors) and Obi-Wan encounter Durge the bounty hunter. An entire squad of ARC troopers engages Durge and doesn't even slow him down. Kenobi, though surprised by Durge's abilities, nonetheless defeats him and forces the Banking Clan to surrender. No one who watches this scene can argue that the ARC troopers stood a chance against Durge, but Obi-Wan defeated him easily. Kenobi and Yoda easily handled an entire battalion of clone troopers when moving back into the Jedi Temple after Skywalker/Vader had killed most of its inhabitants. In fact, a juvenile Jedi was able to kill several clone troopers before, himself, being killed in front of Bail Organa.
People on the OS have been making arguments that boil down to: "Well, what if Boba Fett has a really good trap? That would even the odds against a Sith Lord." This is bullshit, and they know it. If it were simply a matter of preparing a clever trap to "even the odds" against Vader, for example, then the Jedi who survived Order 66 would have done this. Instead, Vader was able to hunt down the survivors and kill many of them personally. Everything in the EU (at least prior to Traviss) suggests that Fett is capable of fighting on the same level as Han. They're both threats to each other, and neither can take the other for granted. To say that Han would have NO CHANCE against a high-level Jedi, though, is a completely uncontroversial statement. Similarly, Lando Carlissian is not hugely overmatched by Boba Fett--again, Fett poses enough of a danger to him that Lando has to take him seriously, but Lando is not so outclassed that fighting Fett is futile. Again, to say that Lando has NO CHANCE against a high-level Jedi is a completely uncontroversial statement.
Boba Fett is a powerful, intelligent, and dangerous opponent in SW, but he is dangerous to normal characters. Jedi are NOT normal characters. They eat normal characters for breakfast. And Jaina isn't just a run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight. She's an INCREDIBLY powerful Jedi in the new order. Sorry, but NO Mandalorian has a chance against her. That's it.
Apart from all of this is the fact that Jaina had regularly fought against YV warriors in the NJO who had:
1. Immunity to Jedi precog--Jaina had to rely on normal, human faculties when fighting against them. Yet she won regularly.
2. Armor that could stop a lightsaber and by all accounts offered vastly better coverage than the beskar armor we see on Mandos.
3. Numbers--Jaina and the other Jedi were frequently engaged by multiple YV warriors.
4. Weapons and "moves" that the Jedi were unfamiliar with--the only advantage that the Mandos claim over Jaina in Rev.
None of these advantages were determinative--the Jedi overcame all of these disadvantages and regularly killed YV warriors.
Traviss has gotten to the point where she's not even writing in the same vision as George Lucas. Frankly, though, George's vision defines Star Wars. Once an author gets, inarguably, outside of George's vision they stop writing Star Wars and begin writing fanfic AT BEST. The characters in Traviss' texts can have the same name as ones in the SW universe, but make no mistake--that is NOT Star Wars. It's no better than fanfic, and I mean that, Traviss (if you're out there).
One can sort of see the authors of LotF and the editors together in a room. "Okay, everyone, we need someone to write the next novel."
[Karen's hand shoots up like she's a kindergartner with ADD] "Can there be Mandos in it?"
[All of the other authors roll their eyes.] "Fine, fine. Put your stupid Mandos in it."
"I'll do it!"
It's one thing for an author to have favorite characters that they return to. It's one thing for an author to write SW books without researching every book, comic, and videogame that deals with SW. But when an author ignores the FILMS, and gets to the point where they're not even TRYING to keep faithful to the story that all of the SW authors are trying to tell, together, then they ought to be let go. So here's my appeal to LFL: let her go. Just drop her. She's harming the Saga, and she's screwing up the other authors that are forced to deal with her.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
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Darth Hoth
- Jedi Council Member
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Ah, that would be Zett Jucassa, ten years old at the time, killing no less than eight of the elite 501st Clonetrooper Legion's soldiers and wounding its commanding officer, Clone Commander Appo. And that is only on-screen; we can probably assume that he must have fought his way through more on his way towards the landing pad. So let us round it up to, say, ten elite commandos for a Jedi in fourth grade so we get a nice and even number. I never tire of that example when it comes to putting Mandowankers in their place; Traviss actually bit herself in the tail, so to speak, when she made the clones Mandos...Master of Ossus wrote:In fact, a juvenile Jedi was able to kill several clone troopers before, himself, being killed in front of Bail Organa.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
-George "Evil" Lucas
-George "Evil" Lucas
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Darth Onasi
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Not to mention that every single Jedi we see killed in the Order 66 sequence was ambushed and taken down by superior numbers by troops who they thought obeyed them unquestioningly.
In Traviss' world, Obi-Wan and Yoda should've been running and hiding from a squad of say 10 501st troopers who single-handedly wiped out the Jedi temple with no casualties.
In Traviss' world, Obi-Wan and Yoda should've been running and hiding from a squad of say 10 501st troopers who single-handedly wiped out the Jedi temple with no casualties.
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18-Till-I-Die
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Thank you for summing up all my problems with this novel far better than i could.Master of Ossus wrote:Not just words...awesome words.
Really, this whole thing reminds me of that awe-inspiring shitheap Meet the Spartans. Ok, we get it, you hate 300...fine. You want to make a long-ass movie to prove just how much you hate 300, ok, sure why not, it's a free country right?
But when you try and quote lines from the movie, and GET THE LINES WRONG, that shows your ignorance not the movie's. When someone takes the time to parody (or in this case, chastise) something or someone and then they GET IT WRONG in the first place, that really shows a level of stupidity, laziness and pure ignorance of the source material that's unforgivable. It just screams "You're Doing It Wrong!" like an overconfident hooker talking to a nerd on prom night.
Kanye West Saves.
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Darth Servo
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Can we get a petition started to send to LFL to request all of KT's work get the infinities label slapped on it?
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
Probably not, but I'll sign it anyway. Who knows. Things like this have gone far before. Hey... Maybe we can sic Anonymous on her? There have to be some fans in them somewhere.Darth Servo wrote:Can we get a petition started to send to LFL to request all of KT's work get the infinities label slapped on it?
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
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CaptainChewbacca
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We're busy atm, come back after we've brought down the church of scientology.havokeff wrote:Probably not, but I'll sign it anyway. Who knows. Things like this have gone far before. Hey... Maybe we can sic Anonymous on her? There have to be some fans in them somewhere.Darth Servo wrote:Can we get a petition started to send to LFL to request all of KT's work get the infinities label slapped on it?
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
What truly bothers me about Ms. Traviss' later works concerning the idiotic notion that "Republic's clonetroopers = Mandalorians" is that for almost their entire existence, the Mandalorian warriors have been enemies of the Republic. From their introduction in Tales of the Jedi they have been on a constant path of aggression against the Republic (and several non-aligned powers as well).
This actually means that, according to Ms. Traviss, Kaminoans allowed the clones the Republic had purchased to develop a culture that was antagonistic towards their master and it is completely unsupported outside Ms. Traviss' works. In fact, even ARC troopers shown in Clone Wars comic series didn't praise the Mandalorian Way; yes, they had been trained by Jango Fett, but apparently Fett had forgotten how awesome, important and totally "cool" the Mandalorian culture was and how... necessary it is to train a professional soldier.
Mandalorians are mercenaries by the time of Jango Fett; and before that they had either been mercenaries during their less than glorious moments, or almost religious fanatics devoted to war and conquest. Neither implies professionalism that was a requirement for the clonetroopers.
But if we are to listen to Ms. Traviss, at least ARC troopers are "Mandos" (O God almighty, how I hate that word) and thus have historical reasons to hate their employer (the only time Mandalorians have helped the Jedi and the Republic was during the Jedi Exile's war against the Sith Triumvirate and even then it was more about Lord Mandalore of the Clan Ordo's attempt to restore the clans' glory and unity through warfare). I wouldn't wonder if she had allowed that ridiculous claim to affect the rest of the clonetroopers, making them all "Mandos".
This actually means that, according to Ms. Traviss, Kaminoans allowed the clones the Republic had purchased to develop a culture that was antagonistic towards their master and it is completely unsupported outside Ms. Traviss' works. In fact, even ARC troopers shown in Clone Wars comic series didn't praise the Mandalorian Way; yes, they had been trained by Jango Fett, but apparently Fett had forgotten how awesome, important and totally "cool" the Mandalorian culture was and how... necessary it is to train a professional soldier.
Mandalorians are mercenaries by the time of Jango Fett; and before that they had either been mercenaries during their less than glorious moments, or almost religious fanatics devoted to war and conquest. Neither implies professionalism that was a requirement for the clonetroopers.
But if we are to listen to Ms. Traviss, at least ARC troopers are "Mandos" (O God almighty, how I hate that word) and thus have historical reasons to hate their employer (the only time Mandalorians have helped the Jedi and the Republic was during the Jedi Exile's war against the Sith Triumvirate and even then it was more about Lord Mandalore of the Clan Ordo's attempt to restore the clans' glory and unity through warfare). I wouldn't wonder if she had allowed that ridiculous claim to affect the rest of the clonetroopers, making them all "Mandos".
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!
The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
The latest book (True Colors) addressed this to some degree by having some Republic troops that had recently faced Mandalorian mercenaries display some antipathy toward the Omega Squad commandos when said commandos referred to Mandalorian practices. This particular sub-plot was not developed very far, however. That's a shame since there was a lot of story potential in the idea of the commandos being confronted with the less-than-ideal reality of Mandalorian culture. Where's Carth Onasi when you need him?Tiriol wrote:What truly bothers me about Ms. Traviss' later works concerning the idiotic notion that "Republic's clonetroopers = Mandalorians" is that for almost their entire existence, the Mandalorian warriors have been enemies of the Republic.
FWIW, you can sidestep that in the canon to some extent by virtue of the way in which the troops were trained. Many people were hired to train the clone troopers, not all of whom may have been Mandalorian.In fact, even ARC troopers shown in Clone Wars comic series didn't praise the Mandalorian Way; yes, they had been trained by Jango Fett, but apparently Fett had forgotten how awesome, important and totally "cool" the Mandalorian culture was and how... necessary it is to train a professional soldier.
Even in Traviss's books, the Null ARCs are only heavily steeped in Mando culture because they were personally raised by Kal Skirata. The other ARCs would not have been as directly influenced, as evidenced by the other appearances you note.
Likewise, the clone commandos in Trraviss's first book (Hard Contact) were not deeply entrenched in Mando culture. They had picked up a few choice words and concepts from Sergeant Kal, but even those were not necessarly Mando specific. Delta and Omega Squad didn't start drinking the Mando'ade until they fell under the full-time stewardship of their respective Mandalorian sergeants in the later books.
IOW, the clone commandos and ARCs in the Republic Commando novels can be explained as an aberrant cult of personality within the ranks and thus not indicative of the clone troopers as a whole. That also fits with the lack of Mando-wank in other depictions of the clone troopers.
It's okay to kiss a nun; just don't get into the habit.
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Darksider
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It should be noted that Traviss has retconned her stance of all the clones being mandos in "True Colors." The Omegas meet with members of the sky corps under general Ki-Adi-Mundi and they speak derisively about mandalorian culture, mostly due to the fact that they have been fighting Mandalorian mercs who sided with the separatists.
That's another thing that pisses me off. Where the hell does traviss get off claiming the Mandos are "honorable" and "Just" when they've sided with the bad guys in EVERY SINGLE MAJOR WAR IN THE GALAXY? The first time the mandalorians come to prominence is when they serve the sith in Exar Kun's rebellion.
then about forty years after that, the sith come to them with an offer to fight the republic, and since its not like the last war against the jedi and the republic cost them many lives and got their leader killed or anything, they jump at the chance (Yet again demonstrating the extreme level of stupidity common to them.)
Fast foreward 4,000 years or so. The sith conspire to overthrow the republic, and they form the CIS. Who sides with them again? The "uber-honorable and great" mandalorian warriors. Then in the OT, vader uses a mando bounty hunter to find the rebels.
It seems as though the mandalorians only significant impact on galactic history is being idiot thugs duped by the sith.
That's another thing that pisses me off. Where the hell does traviss get off claiming the Mandos are "honorable" and "Just" when they've sided with the bad guys in EVERY SINGLE MAJOR WAR IN THE GALAXY? The first time the mandalorians come to prominence is when they serve the sith in Exar Kun's rebellion.
then about forty years after that, the sith come to them with an offer to fight the republic, and since its not like the last war against the jedi and the republic cost them many lives and got their leader killed or anything, they jump at the chance (Yet again demonstrating the extreme level of stupidity common to them.)
Fast foreward 4,000 years or so. The sith conspire to overthrow the republic, and they form the CIS. Who sides with them again? The "uber-honorable and great" mandalorian warriors. Then in the OT, vader uses a mando bounty hunter to find the rebels.
It seems as though the mandalorians only significant impact on galactic history is being idiot thugs duped by the sith.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
'Just and honorable' goes out the window just from what we can infer from watching ESB. Let's pretend for a moment that the entire EU outside the movies doesn't exist (ahh...fuzzy feeling...) and look at the 'bounty hunters' scene objectively:
The employer is Darth Vader, a guy who's directly killed thousands of people, many of them innocent, some of them children. Hell, the last guy to get on his bad side is still cooling off in the ship's freezer. From the dialogue, it's pretty clear he's employed hunters to off some folks before this.
Let's look at the competition.
A lizard with the nerve to backsass an Imperial admiral on his own ship.
A bug who walks around on said ship with his rifle drawn.
A pair of assassin droids.
Another guy walking around with his rifle loose.
Seriously, how long would a 'just' and 'honorable' bounty hunter last in this kind of competition? They'd hang him out to dry before they even left the ship. These clearly aren't the kind of guys you'd call 'balanced'.
And then there's the crowning moment. Vader walks past them all, singles Fett out, and with a waggling finger says firmly: "NO disintigrations."
What the fuck?! How can you possibly pull terms like just or honorable out of your fucking hat when you hear shit like this? Fett isn't some kind of knight in shining armor, he's a fucking vicious sociopath bad enough to cheese even Lord Vader off. Of course, that was really one of the things that made the character appear so fucking badass. Trying to turn him into some kind of paragon of martial virtue isn't simply wanking the character, it's a fucking insult to the original vision of how he was created.
The employer is Darth Vader, a guy who's directly killed thousands of people, many of them innocent, some of them children. Hell, the last guy to get on his bad side is still cooling off in the ship's freezer. From the dialogue, it's pretty clear he's employed hunters to off some folks before this.
Let's look at the competition.
A lizard with the nerve to backsass an Imperial admiral on his own ship.
A bug who walks around on said ship with his rifle drawn.
A pair of assassin droids.
Another guy walking around with his rifle loose.
Seriously, how long would a 'just' and 'honorable' bounty hunter last in this kind of competition? They'd hang him out to dry before they even left the ship. These clearly aren't the kind of guys you'd call 'balanced'.
And then there's the crowning moment. Vader walks past them all, singles Fett out, and with a waggling finger says firmly: "NO disintigrations."
What the fuck?! How can you possibly pull terms like just or honorable out of your fucking hat when you hear shit like this? Fett isn't some kind of knight in shining armor, he's a fucking vicious sociopath bad enough to cheese even Lord Vader off. Of course, that was really one of the things that made the character appear so fucking badass. Trying to turn him into some kind of paragon of martial virtue isn't simply wanking the character, it's a fucking insult to the original vision of how he was created.
JADAFETWA
Ah, it appears I have been (happily) misinformed, if that Mando Infectation hasn't spread to other clone trooper units besides Ms. Traviss' pet commandos. Thank thee, kind sirs.
Kuja: like father, like son. Jango Fett was employed by the craven and exceedingly greedy Trade Federation Viceroy Nute Gunray, and calculating and politically ruthless and amoral Count Dooku (whom some might know as an invidual called "Darth Tyranus", a Sith Lord) to assassinate a Senator of the Galactic Republic through any means necessary, an invidual, I might add, who we KNOW to be innocent and just in her dealings. Indeed, Jango and his accomplice caused the deaths of Senator Amidala's staff and bodyguard in their first attempted assassination - and later Mr. Fett even murdered that accomplice before she could give Jedi any information.
And that is only counting the one movie in which Jango Fett featured in.
Kuja: like father, like son. Jango Fett was employed by the craven and exceedingly greedy Trade Federation Viceroy Nute Gunray, and calculating and politically ruthless and amoral Count Dooku (whom some might know as an invidual called "Darth Tyranus", a Sith Lord) to assassinate a Senator of the Galactic Republic through any means necessary, an invidual, I might add, who we KNOW to be innocent and just in her dealings. Indeed, Jango and his accomplice caused the deaths of Senator Amidala's staff and bodyguard in their first attempted assassination - and later Mr. Fett even murdered that accomplice before she could give Jedi any information.
And that is only counting the one movie in which Jango Fett featured in.
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!
The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
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Darksider
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Whom Fett knew to be Tyrannus. I don't know if he knew he was working for the sith, but he knew Dooku was leading a double life as Tyrannus.Tiriol wrote: (whom some might know as an invidual called "Darth Tyranus", a Sith Lord)
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
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Jim Raynor
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Not to mention Boba Fett willingly working for Jabba the Hutt, a fucking gangster and PROBABLE rapist given how he treated his slave girls. Honorable my ass.Kuja wrote:And then there's the crowning moment. Vader walks past them all, singles Fett out, and with a waggling finger says firmly: "NO disintigrations."
What the fuck?! How can you possibly pull terms like just or honorable out of your fucking hat when you hear shit like this? Fett isn't some kind of knight in shining armor, he's a fucking vicious sociopath bad enough to cheese even Lord Vader off. Of course, that was really one of the things that made the character appear so fucking badass. Trying to turn him into some kind of paragon of martial virtue isn't simply wanking the character, it's a fucking insult to the original vision of how he was created.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers
"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds
"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds
"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
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Joviwan
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Man, I hate you SO MUCH right now for that mental image. Thanks..Jim Raynor wrote:Not to mention Boba Fett willingly working for Jabba the Hutt, a fucking gangster and PROBABLE rapist given how he treated his slave girls. Honorable my ass.
Drooling Iguana: No, John. You are the liberals.
Phantasee: So extortion is cooler and it promotes job creation!
Ford Prefect: Maybe there can be a twist ending where Vlad shows up for the one on one duel, only to discover that Sun Tzu ignored it and burnt all his crops.
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Typhonis 1
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Fun thought. She is under contract to write X number of books. She fulfills that obligation and decides to renew it. They refuse too renew her contract.
Brotherhood of the Bear Monkey Clonemaster , Anti Care Bears League,
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,
I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,
I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
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Darth Servo
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The squeamish may want to avert their eyes but...
me thinks KT has projected her high-school football player desperately-wish-was-her-boyfriend fantasy onto Fett and clones. You know the type of guy I'm talking about; the typical tough-guy bully and asshole that the bimbos chase after anyway because he's the "popular" guy and can't see any of their enormous faults.
me thinks KT has projected her high-school football player desperately-wish-was-her-boyfriend fantasy onto Fett and clones. You know the type of guy I'm talking about; the typical tough-guy bully and asshole that the bimbos chase after anyway because he's the "popular" guy and can't see any of their enormous faults.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
I wouldn't be too surprised.Darth Servo wrote:The squeamish may want to avert their eyes but...
me thinks KT has projected her high-school football player desperately-wish-was-her-boyfriend fantasy onto Fett and clones. You know the type of guy I'm talking about; the typical tough-guy bully and asshole that the bimbos chase after anyway because he's the "popular" guy and can't see any of their enormous faults.
Honestly, making Boba a less-than-horribly-evil character is fine - hell, put him through some character development, show that he follows some kind of twisted moral code - but she seems to have just decided to ignore everything she doesn't like about the character's portrayal. The real pity is that if she'd gone to the trouble of actually writing a redemption story or three for Boba Fett, it'd probably be a great read, and a nice way for her to make a lasting mark on the EU.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
It's a shame that she decided to make more than half of the book on the Mandalorians, because I think she does Caedus very well. Unless, he's facing Mandalorians, in which case Caedus in no match for any of them.
The Second Battle of Kuat was good, most of the other stuff should have gone into a Mandalorian novel.
The Second Battle of Kuat was good, most of the other stuff should have gone into a Mandalorian novel.
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Darksider
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Don't give them any ideas....ExarKun wrote: The Second Battle of Kuat was good, most of the other stuff should have gone into a Mandalorian novel.
A mando novel by Traviss. That's the last fucking thing we need
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
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Karmic Knight
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