Israel makes another bid for F-22 jets

[Sidewinder]

Mar 14, 2008 0:12 | Updated Mar 14, 2008 13:07
Israel makes another bid for F-22 jets
By YAAKOV KATZ

In the face of Iran's race to obtain nuclear weapons, defense officials who will visit the US next week plan to ask the Pentagon to reconsider its decision not to sell Israel the F-22 fifth-generation stealth fighter jet, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

Defense Ministry Director-General Pinhas Buhris will visit the US for several days next week to discuss a wide range of security and defense issues, including the continued funding of the Arrow missile defense system as well as the possibility that Israel will receive the F-22.

Israel had asked for the stealth jet - manufactured by Lockheed Martin - last year in an effort to retain its qualitative edge in the region in the face of American plans to sell Saudi Arabia advanced JDAM smart bombs. The Israeli request was turned down.

The IAF did not give up hopes of acquiring the aircraft, particularly since Israel is only expected to begin receiving the stealth Joint Strike Fighter - also known as the F-35 - in 2013 at the earliest. This could be too late to be used if Israel decides to attack Iranian nuclear facilities.

The F-22 formally entered operational service in the US Air Force in December 2005, but has not been sold outside America due to a federal law barring export sale of the aircraft.

In recent talks with the US, Israel again expressed interest in the jets, and defense officials told the Post this week that "things were looking positive."

"This would be a major boost for Israel and its image of deterrence," an official said.

Israel is particularly encouraged by remarks made last month by US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates during a visit to Australia. Gates said he would look into lifting the congressional ban on the sale of the F-22 to foreign nations. Australia and Japan have also expressed interest in buying the stealth aircraft.

Buhris will also use his US trip to try to secure funding for the continued development of the Arrow missile defense system.

Israel currently operates the Arrow 2, and in a recent meeting at the Defense Ministry, Defense Minister Ehud Barak approved plans to begin developing the Arrow 3, an upgraded version that is slated to have a longer range and be capable of reaching higher altitudes.

Israel is also holding high-level talks with the Pentagon concerning a future Israeli acquisition in a time of war of the Lockheed Martin-built Terminal High Altitude Area Defense missile defense system.

A delegation of officials from Israel's Homa Missile Defense Agency were in Hawaii recently to view a successful test of the system. The US Congress recently allocated $200 million subsidy for Israel's use if it decides to purchase the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense system.

Comments on The Jerusalem Post website include these:

6. Israel created the problem of finding US technology like raptor hard to come by
zionist forever - (03/14/2008 16:44)

5. If raptor is not avalible Israel should try getting the jewly retired F117 stealth fighter
zionist forever - (03/14/2008 16:43)

4. F-22
No doubt this is a great plane and would do well in the Israeli arsenal. The real story is that Israel is protect by the God of heaven. If the fighter is not sold to Israel it will make no difference. When the soverign God protects no power on this earth can defeat Israel. There was an agreement made between God and father Abraham centuries ago that Israel would be God'd chosen people. A father will do all within his power to provide and protect His chosen. Israel is the winner and the rest of the world is the looser.
Prophet - USA (03/14/2008 16:41)

3. If the US won't sell Israel the F-22 Then they should at least lead the charge to Iran
Shaya - USA (03/14/2008 14:58)

2. Bring Back the Lavi
Which, given Israel's technological superiority per capita in (and I will generalize, if I may) in every field. The project was slated due to political and not monitary issues. In any case the Jews need to kearn when the go it alone (in contradistinction to grovelling to the World) they do best. Bring back the Lavi before it costs the country in human life.
Dave Cohen - Israel (03/14/2008 10:39)

1. F-22 to israel
we should imediatly get (7 ) f-22's to Israel simply stated, "what happens in Israel effects the whole world". Israel needs to jump iran in a pre-emptive strike on its neuk program, ASAP. We need to help to the uttermost.
allen Ols - usa (03/14/2008 09:23)

[Galvatron]

If we sell them, wouldn't we just be getting our own money back?

[Shroom Man 777]

If we sell them, the Israelis are just gonna sell the designs to the Chinese.

[Stuart]

If we sell them, the Israelis are just gonna sell the designs to the Chinese.

Exactly. That's the problem and its one the Israelis can only blame themselves for.

[Shroom Man 777]

Since you're in the know, I'll ask. Why the hell did the Israelis fuck themselves by...err, fucking with the Chinese and making America all jealous and scorned and stuff?

Seriously, what could the Chinese possibly offer them that was worth scorning the States?

[That NOS Guy]

Seriously, what could the Chinese possibly offer them that was worth scorning the States?

Money for their projects?

Wasn't one of the deals with the JSF an extreme limit of technology transfer and homebrew modification?

[cosmicalstorm]

Could'nt they buy the F-117's? They are being retired after all. I know too little about these things to understand if that's a good or a bad idea.

[Ace Pace]

Long story short from what the news here reported, Israel decided a quick cold buck from China now was better then the dangling offer of the F-22 in an undetermined future.

Galvatron
Yes, thats the precise problem with current american aid to Israel, it's contigent upon it being paid back to america in the form of more equiptment Israel doesn't need.

[Sea Skimmer]

Could'nt they buy the F-117's? They are being retired after all. I know too little about these things to understand if that's a good or a bad idea.

The F-22 is the best air superiority fighter in the world, with a fair bit of ground attack capability. The F-117 is a subsonic strike plane that’s utterly screwed if intercepted by enemy fighters. They don’t do the same job at all. Also the Nighthawk is simply old technology (the same kind of vintage as the F-15 fighters Isreal wants to replace!) and a well used plane, it’s unlikely that it would be practical for Israel to continue to operate them for any great length of time.

Anyway, the only way Israel could afford F-22s is if the US steps up military aid even higher, and fuck that. If any extra money is spent on F-22s they are going right to the USAF.

[Jade Falcon]

It does seem a bit stupid to sell F-22's to Israel under basically USA funding considering the USAF's original F-22 order was cut.

Also, I haven't been looking up on the nations that face Israel militarily for a while, but just what do they have that justify having F-22's. Isn't it a bit overkill?

[Medic]

If we sell them, the Israelis are just gonna sell the designs to the Chinese.

Exactly. That's the problem and its one the Israelis can only blame themselves for.

*cough* AWACS aircraft *cough*

That and even if they didn't, I don't particularly care to put any number of F-22's into service in an area of the world where foreign military's WILL have an opportunity to observe and analyze it. By procurement, it's a silver bullet so let's not fuck THAT up and give any OPFOR a chance to develop tactics tailored to it -- if any effective ones even COULD be designed -- by seeing Israel operate it. Or crash it, it's not like that never happens.

[Ford Prefect]

Also, I haven't been looking up on the nations that face Israel militarily for a while, but just what do they have that justify having F-22's. Isn't it a bit overkill?

You can apply this very easily to the US, if you wanted to be an ass. Do they really need an air superiority fighter that goes head to head with ten times* its number in opponents and wins? I mean, looking at their most recent conflicts, did the US actually face anyone with planes? Of any kind? Whatever justification the USAF is for a hundred million dollar superfighter with the sort of overwhelming killing ability usually possessed by characters like Goku from Dragon Ball Z can be used by any country on the face of the planet.

The reason why no one else will ever get it is so that 'just in case', the USAF has no competition. Because the Raptor killed its only real competition.

*Or whatever it was - it was fucking ridiculous, in any case

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Wait wait wait? You mean to tell me that after years of support, which has screwed over our posistion in the mid-east mind you, the Israels had the gaul to sell USA tech to the Chinese?

This, if true, combined with the Palestinian occupation and the usage of American governmental aid for the building of settlements makes me ever more disgusted with Israel as a nation. Not to mention attacking a US warship and having it glossed over as an accident (happened a while a go, but still wtf?).

[That NOS Guy]

Wait wait wait? You mean to tell me that after years of support, which has screwed over our posistion in the mid-east mind you, the Israels had the gaul to sell USA tech to the Chinese?

What, did you think the J-10 was actually Chinese designed?

This, if true, combined with the Palestinian occupation and the usage of American governmental aid for the building of settlements makes me ever more disgusted with Israel as a nation. Not to mention attacking a US warship and having it glossed over as an accident (happened a while a go, but still wtf?).

The Liberty? The scary thing is that it was an accident. Score one for the competence of the Israeli Navy.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Yeah how the hell do you accidentally blow up A) A ship twice as long as your supposed target. B) One thats lettering IS IN ANOTHER FREAKING ALPHABET. Unless Israeli pilots eye requirments are fucking piss poor, there's no way you could make that mistake. That's like mistaking a humvee for a motorcycle.

[Pelranius]

To be honest, I don't see why the Israelis need the F-22A.

The neighboring airforces aren't exactly competent, and the frickin Egyptians are also dependent on American aid. (they probably won't be stupid enough to ask for Raptors, but they'll most likely demand free Lightnings if we give Tel Aviv Raptors)

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Wow just looked at some stuff on the J-10. I now officially hate Israel. I really really really can't stand stereotyping but fuck when the nation representing your people starts behaving exactly as a stereotype would suggest it's kinda demoralizing. I was just listening to a radio bit on them rebuildinging the settlements again. WHAT THE HELL??!?!

Fuck you Israel. Fuck you

[That NOS Guy]

Yeah how the hell do you accidentally blow up A) A ship twice as long as your supposed target. B) One thats lettering IS IN ANOTHER FREAKING ALPHABET. Unless Israeli pilots eye requirments are fucking piss poor, there's no way you could make that mistake. That's like mistaking a humvee for a motorcycle.

Stuart had an excellent piece on that incident actually.

[phongn]

Yeah how the hell do you accidentally blow up A) A ship twice as long as your supposed target. B) One thats lettering IS IN ANOTHER FREAKING ALPHABET. Unless Israeli pilots eye requirments are fucking piss poor, there's no way you could make that mistake. That's like mistaking a humvee for a motorcycle.

This topic has come up before on SDN; please read this essay on the incident in question (by Stuart Slade, who also posts on this board as "Stuart"). Unfortunately, the idiots at Yuku screwed up their importation of EZBoard's data and any quote marks are missing in it, now.

EDIT: Damn you, NOS!

Wow just looked at some stuff on the J-10. I now officially hate Israel. I really really really can't stand stereotyping but fuck when the nation representing your people starts behaving exactly as a stereotype would suggest it's kinda demoralizing.

What in particular?

[Black Admiral]

Yeah how the hell do you accidentally blow up A) A ship twice as long as your supposed target.

Just to address this specifically, during the pursuit of the Bismarck, a strike of Swordfish torpedo bombers from HMS Ark Royal launched an attack on the cruiser Sheffield by mistake. Not only was Sheffield significantly smaller than Bismarck, as well as different in silhouette and various other parts of her appearance, Ark Royal had been working alongside her for months in the Mediterranean, and Ark Royal's pilots were actually trained in ship identification, which the Israeli pilots who attacked the Liberty weren't.

It's simply not that easy to identify ships from the air, and I imagine it would be much more difficult from a jet flying vastly higher and faster than any Swordfish could dream of.

[Sidewinder]

Wow just looked at some stuff on the J-10. I now officially hate Israel. I really really really can't stand stereotyping but fuck when the nation representing your people starts behaving exactly as a stereotype would suggest it's kinda demoralizing.

What in particular?

Probably the stereotype that Jews are obsessed with money and will sell their own mothers for a buck. Yes, people who believe that are racist assholes, but there are people who believe that.

By the way, the J-10 is significantly different from the Lavi, so it's wrong to call it a direct copy.

There have been conflicting reports about what relationship the Chengdu may have with the Israeli IAI Lavi fighter program. [6] In formal (official) Chinese sources, the J-10 is said to have been developed from the canceled Chengdu J-9, which shared with both J10 and the Lavi a canard-configuration. The J-9 program predated both of the other aircraft[11] — a fact that arguably counters the Lavi related speculations. In an interview, the general designer of J-10, Mr. Song Wencong (宋文骢) said, "Our nation's new fighter's external design and aerodynamics configuration are completely made by us and did not receive foreign assistance, this made me very proud and filled with pride. Our nation developed J-9 in the 1960s, this adopted the canard configuration. So, those statements that said J-10 is a copy of Israeli Lavi are just laughable."[12]

A simple comparison of known IAI Lavi prototype photographs and J-10 photographs (now officially released) shows some common features between the two aircraft, but also common with fighter aircraft of other countries.[13][14]. The Delta canard planform has appeared on many aircraft, including Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale. Additionally, the delta-canard planform combined with ventral intake has also been used on a soviet-designed high-technology prototype known (among other designations) as MiG 1.44. The Soviets began the MiG-1.44 project as far back as 1986, before Lavi was cancelled. While Lavi and J-10 share some features, there are notable differences. The ventral intakes of J-10, as well as those for MiG-1.44 and Eurofighter are squared and feature variable geometry ramping for high-speed flight. The intakes for both Lavi and the F-16 are round and fixed, and neither aircraft was developed with an eye towards reduced radar cross-section. Were J-10’s link to the Lavi confirmed, there would still be the issue of whether the connection was mutual, or resulted from unilateral activity such as Chinese copying or espionage.

The strongest admission of a mutual connection between China and Israel by Israeli authorities appeared in a statement made by an official as the American government investigated Lavi technology transfers to China. The Director General of Israel's Ministry of Defense David Lari "acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that 'some technology on aircraft' had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have 'clean hands'".[15]. The context of the article strongly substantiates a link between the Lavi and the Chinese, though lack of a specific mention of Lavi, and the volume of Israeli arms and technology sales to China means that there are a considerable range of ventures other than Lavi/J-10 which could have been the subject of that statement.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Hell no. Israel may technically be the US's ally, but I see no reason to sell them anything related to the F-22, much less the whole damn fighter. The least of reasons being that the US spent so much developing it and Israel has done nothing to deserve getting their paws on something that can brutally crush anything else. To say nothing about just how much the US should even help out Israel. *

And Ford, the numbers aren't quite as impressive as that. They're 12:2 for anything else to the F-22. That's still damn impressive. I suspect the lethality of the F-22 is largely from the sensor package it has. Being able to target your opponent well before they have a clue you're there is immensely beneficial to kills and survivability.


As far as the F-22's dominance and why there's even a point to it, the US has more people pissed off at them than Israel. Granted, Israel is in a worse location. But if the shit hits the fan, Israel has allies to help it out. The US? Nasty habit of pissing off its allies lately. Not to mention the US is quite fond of being the baddest motherfucker on the playground.

*I'll just say that there's too many factors involved in the whole US/Israel situation to get into it without a threadjack being very possible.

[hongi]

As far as the F-22's dominance and why there's even a point to it, the US has more people pissed off at them than Israel.

Hard to believe that it could ever have come to this point.

If things get really out of hand, like a national survival sort of scenario, I'm sure the US will be selling F-22s to Israel.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I'd rather see the Raptor sold to the Aussies before any Israeli or Japanese lay a finger on it, since they (as far as I can remember) haven't fucked us over. As has been said, the Israel has sold confidential equipment to China and Japan has sold milling machines that decreased the noise of the infamously loud Soviet subs.

But unless it's a matter of national importance to any of our allies (as in they're actually in danger of becoming nonexistent as a country because of an outside threat) I'd rather the Raptor stayed in American hands only.

[Enforcer Talen]

[quote="RIPP_n_WIPE"]Wait wait wait? You mean to tell me that after years of support, which has screwed over our posistion in the mid-east mind you, the Israels had the gaul to sell USA tech to the Chinese?

This, if true, combined with the Palestinian occupation and the usage of American governmental aid for the building of settlements makes me ever more disgusted with Israel as a nation. Not to mention attacking a US warship and having it glossed over as an accident (happened a while a go, but still wtf?).[/quote

Yeah, they and the Chinese are one of the most active intel peeps against us. Im not fond of them.