Stargate: The Ark of Truth (Spoilers)

[NecronLord]

Have they changed this film from the leaked version? There was no reason to use the cloak in the leaked version, the Ori fleet were sitting out in the solar system somewhere looming menacingly.

[Connor MacLeod]

I should just ask with this phase cloak.. if its rendering a planet invulnerable to weapons, how long did they actually cloak? Unless they have some replacement for the local star, I can't imagine them surviving for any length of time without sunlight (or an analogue). For that matter, there's the issue of disposing of/radiating away heat as well...

Plus, I'd hate to wonder what phase cloaking the planet (minus moon) would do, to say nothing of other gravitaitonal influences, and such.

On the other hand, that could be why they never bothered with it - the potential drawbacks could be serious enough that you don't wnat to use it for any serious length of time, or under the direst of circumstances (The Ori could probably just out-wait the cloak, after all.)

[Rommie2006]

It could buy time...

Meanwhile they could do hit-and-runs attack on the Ori fleet. Remember that the Asgard weapons can toast the Ori ships with a few shots. War by attrition I think is possible, so as long as Earth doesn't loose their ships. Remember that Earth ships are generally more maneuverable that the Ori toilet bowl ships.

And I also agree that after the Goa'uld storyline was wrapped up, the SG-1 writing has gotten from bad to worse. They should have just ended it there when Anubis died.

[CaptJodan]

Have they changed this film from the leaked version? There was no reason to use the cloak in the leaked version, the Ori fleet were sitting out in the solar system somewhere looming menacingly.

Sir, given how seriously out gunned we are, I don't see how a little more time really helps. What could possibly save us at this point?

To which Landry replies that he hopes that SG-1 shows up at some point.
He could have added "At least we could buy ourselves more time with the ancient cloaking device, I just hope it doesn't come to that." Instead we have...

I tell you this much, we're not going down without a fight.

Which shows that either Landry is incredibly stupid, and is going to fight a hopeless battle that they know they will lose rather than use the cloak, or, yes, this movie sucks because they've once again forgot about a piece of technology that was used a fair deal in the last season.

Really, the apologetics here are getting rediculous. Can you not just accept that they fucked up and completely forgot about this device that could have bought them A LOT more time?

I should just ask with this phase cloak.. if its rendering a planet invulnerable to weapons, how long did they actually cloak?

We never know. It was obviously long enough in the mirror universe for the Ori to give up, even withdrawing their ships from the area. What effect it had on the planet is also a mystery. When it was used in a smaller area with just Sam and Cameron, however, there wasn't any perceptible loss of heat.

I guess it all depends on whether or not the Ori are willing to commit ships to stay there for a very long time, potentially while Earth ships conduct hit and run attacks. But I don't find the "never bothered with it" line very convincing. It, without a doubt, saved one Earth. The fact that it wasn't even suggested as a solution either to save Earth or to buy time shows that the writers just missed it.

Remember that the Asgard weapons can toast the Ori ships with a few shots. War by attrition I think is possible, so as long as Earth doesn't loose their ships.

To be fair, it's unclear when "Ark" takes place. It could easily be prior to the Apollo and Daedalus' upgrade. They may only have missiles and rail guns to throw at them, which would be a bit of a problem.

As a kind of aside, it is largely agreed upon throughout both "The Road Not Taken" and "Ark" that the Ancient Outpost was, in no way, capable of defending the planet against a large fleet of Ori ships. My question is, does this mean drones are unlikely to penetrate Ori shields? There was firepower to spare during the attack on Anubis' 30+ ships that arrived in orbit. If drones could penetrate Ori ships shields, wouldn't that be more than enough to take out or at least heavily damage all of 7 ships the Ori brought?

[Darth Onasi]

As a kind of aside, it is largely agreed upon throughout both "The Road Not Taken" and "Ark" that the Ancient Outpost was, in no way, capable of defending the planet against a large fleet of Ori ships. My question is, does this mean drones are unlikely to penetrate Ori shields? There was firepower to spare during the attack on Anubis' 30+ ships that arrived in orbit. If drones could penetrate Ori ships shields, wouldn't that be more than enough to take out or at least heavily damage all of 7 ships the Ori brought?

Obviously they can penetrate Ori shields, since the outpost repelled one Ori ship in the alternate universe. I don't remember if it was outright destroyed or not, but it was at least sufficiently damaged to no longer be a threat.
I believe the issue is that there aren't enough drones and/or the Ori ships would take far longer to kill than Anubis' fleet.
By the time a couple were damaged, the other ships would have time to fire on the outpost, and that would be the end of it.

[CaptJodan]

Obviously they can penetrate Ori shields, since the outpost repelled one Ori ship in the alternate universe. I don't remember if it was outright destroyed or not, but it was at least sufficiently damaged to no longer be a threat.
I believe the issue is that there aren't enough drones and/or the Ori ships would take far longer to kill than Anubis' fleet.
By the time a couple were damaged, the other ships would have time to fire on the outpost, and that would be the end of it.

Well, by penetrate, I probably meant "Bypass" ie "Our shields are useless, My Lord" or whatever. But the point is still valid. By this point, everyone and their brother knows WHERE the outpost is. 7 ships gunning for one point on the planet probably would overwhelm the outpost.

[NecronLord]

Which shows that either Landry is incredibly stupid, and is going to fight a hopeless battle that they know they will lose rather than use the cloak, or, yes, this movie sucks because they've once again forgot about a piece of technology that was used a fair deal in the last season.

Or that he's smart enough to understand that cloak =!= Instawin. Sure, it could protect them from Ori fire. But ZPMs are not unlimited energy; it's questionable whether the stargate would work at that time either.

Really, the apologetics here are getting rediculous. Can you not just accept that they fucked up and completely forgot about this device that could have bought them A LOT more time?

Or that they decided that there was a point where you get needlessly into continuity. It's like a Star Trek film talking at length about a solution they used for a problem in an episode, when it has no relevance to the actual plot.

What happens if the Ori just get testy and collapse the moon into a mini-black hole? Given that this phase cloak doesn't protect against gravity... It's good for confusing the hell out of a relatively casual attack; a concerted assault like this one, not so much.

[CaptJodan]

Or that he's smart enough to understand that cloak =!= Instawin. Sure, it could protect them from Ori fire. But ZPMs are not unlimited energy; it's questionable whether the stargate would work at that time either.

Yes, it could protect them from the Ori. For hours at least, maybe even days or weeks. All of Landry's eggs were in the "I hope SG-1 will put us out of the fire" basket, and he admits as much in the episode. If that's the only real viable option, then putting resources towards buying time for SG-1's should be considered. Not wasting your energy reserves fighting a battle you know you're going to lose.

Or that they decided that there was a point where you get needlessly into continuity. It's like a Star Trek film talking at length about a solution they used for a problem in an episode, when it has no relevance to the actual plot.

This was a major device that was touted as being a device that could save Earth. It wasn't a trivial piece of equipment that was mentioned in one or two episodes along the way, it was the central piece around several episodes.

The writers wanted to portray SG-1 as the only hope Earth had. If Earth had a device that worked in the past to save Earth, that would minimize SG-1's importance. The "SG-1s working on the Ori problem, but at least we're safe from attack" angle. It doesn't jack up the stakes. So the writers just dropped it altogether, and did so with no logical in-universe reason.

What happens if the Ori just get testy and collapse the moon into a mini-black hole? Given that this phase cloak doesn't protect against gravity... It's good for confusing the hell out of a relatively casual attack; a concerted assault like this one, not so much.

You're really a fan of the near certainty of death via a direct Ori attack verses the concept of buying time for a new plan, aren't you? Between a plan that we know won't work and will likely lead to the destruction of Earth and a plan that has worked in the past, I'll take the latter, thank you. It's certainly better than "Let's fight to go down gloriously like Klingons!".

Regardless, it's needless speculation not supported by prior Ori actions. "The Road Not Taken" shows a successful use of the device. So useful it was, that they broke out their own phase-shift device, and were eagerly pouring over it to understand it for use again if they needed to (which implies they may have had the power to run it again, or had the means to find more power to run it again). The planet was cloaked for HOWEVER LONG it took the Ori to decide that trying to get at them was useless, and not only did they not try to wait them out, they just flat left. When the planet returned, there was no immediate rush to attack it again, nor was there Ori resources being moved to Earth's moon to create a black hole.

Stargate's been really good in the past about bringing up old ideas to use for new problems. Your argument is basically that they shouldn't do that, despite the fact that that continuity is something that sets it apart from things like Trek. This was a direct threat against Earth itself, with total annihilation hanging in the balance which makes it relevant to the actual plot. Had they written out the attack on Earth, you'd have a point. Had Landry made a casual mention of why they couldn't use the device, or that they were prepared to use it if necessary, but the Ori never attacked, that would have been fine. But it was more important for Landry to go out in a blaze of glory, fighting to the last man and dooming humanity because...well you haven't actually said why that is somehow the better plan.

[JME2]

Well, my roommates and I just finished watching it. Flawed and anticlimactic in some ways (especially the Ark itself; I'm sick of Ancient Ex Machina), but effectively a good end to the Ori arc, thank god.

3.75/5

Oh, and the IOA are a bunch of fucking morons. That is all.

[NecronLord]

Yes, it could protect them from the Ori. For hours at least, maybe even days or weeks. All of Landry's eggs were in the "I hope SG-1 will put us out of the fire" basket, and he admits as much in the episode. If that's the only real viable option, then putting resources towards buying time for SG-1's should be considered. Not wasting your energy reserves fighting a battle you know you're going to lose.

Like I said, there was no actual battle joined over Earth in the version I saw; why would they turn on the cloak which has a limited lifespan until the Ori ships are actually in firing position? All I recall was a lot of blather about preparing ships to fight, doom and gloom; but no evidence that they weren't going to use the cloaking device. Frankly, if your big gipe is that they didn't use a device they used in one episode - and for all we know, the thing didn't work in their universe, because Doctor Lee spilt his coffee on it - then you're panning the film rather unfairly.

You're harping about how "I tell you this much, we're not going down without a fight." makes Landry a klingon - because of course, using a cloaking device couldn't posibly be part of that fight, could it?

You're right, it would have been nice to see it; indeed, it would have been a cool way to jack up the tension to have them use it and then have the Ori start bombarding the planet to burn up its power, or start some other wicked plan of evil. But I don't think it's a massive problem with the movie that they don't mention yet another ancient gizmo of doom in it.

If I'd written the film, it would certainly have been mentioned (of course, there would have been an actual battle and the destruction of the other earth ships, too, and the Antarctic outpost. In fact, I'd have basically totalled the SG program's assets) but I didn't find that the lack of a phase cloak in any way harmed my enjoyment of the film.

I found the lack of an actual Ori attack to be much more irritating. They appeared to sit out beyond Mars, or wherever it was they were, and do a lot of sweet fuck all.

You're really a fan of the near certainty of death via a direct Ori attack verses the concept of buying time for a new plan, aren't you?

Yes, I'm a fan of certainty of death against a concerted Ori attack. Frankly, the Ori and their followers are so overwhelmingly powerful that the logical end of the arc is the destruction or prostration of Earth and total conversion of the Milky Way Galaxy and beyond.

And yes, they gave up in one universe, doesn't mean they'd do the same in another. Adria, for a start, has far more reason to be concerned about the Tau'ri than the Ori did, and doubtless, getting the place wiped out is much higher on her list of priorities.

Never mind that for all you know, The Road Not Taken's Earth was wiped out by having its moon turned into a black hole, the sun detonated in a supernova or some such a few days after Sam left. You seem to be objecting to anyone saying 'we're doomed' when a colossally more powerful space power has suddenly devoted all its resources to their destruction.

[CaptJodan]

Like I said, there was no actual battle joined over Earth in the version I saw; why would they turn on the cloak which has a limited lifespan until the Ori ships are actually in firing position?[/quote]

I don't propose they turn it on if the Ori don't attack. I simply propose a throwaway line regarding the cloak as a back-up, or more appropriately, something along the lines of what you propose. Part of the reason (and I do mean part) it was a bad movie was because they used writers fiat twice. Once, to ignore (or forgot) the cloak, and the second is to have the Ori do nothing so that they artificially buy time for SG-1 to save the day.

All I recall was a lot of blather about preparing ships to fight, doom and gloom; but no evidence that they weren't going to use the cloaking device.

Like you said, we have no idea if the Stargate works properly with the phase cloak, so I really doubt the drones will work with the phase cloak, and they were clearly preparing for that. I find their "doom and gloom" enough to conclude that it wasn't likely in the plans.

Frankly, if your big gipe is that they didn't use a device they used in one episode - and for all we know, the thing didn't work in their universe, because Doctor Lee spilt his coffee on it - then you're panning the film rather unfairly.

A minor nitpick, but off the top of my head they used it twice, featured in at least 3 episodes I can think of. But no, this isn't my primary gripe. If I were to list my top gripe, it would be the IOA/Replicator subplot. A close second would be the Ark itself and it's effects. But others have already covered that.

You're harping about how "I tell you this much, we're not going down without a fight." makes Landry a klingon - because of course, using a cloaking device couldn't posibly be part of that fight, could it?

Because all evidence points to the fact that they are not planning on using it.

You're right, it would have been nice to see it; indeed, it would have been a cool way to jack up the tension to have them use it and then have the Ori start bombarding the planet to burn up its power, or start some other wicked plan of evil.

That's all I'm asking.

But I don't think it's a massive problem with the movie that they don't mention yet another ancient gizmo of doom in it.

I object simply on the basis that it was a greater-than-normally featured Deux Ex that should have been dealt with. If the writers wanted to make it somehow useless, that's fine. But it just hangs out there.

I'll tell you why I object to it higher than is possibly logical, and it goes back to what Chris said. SG-1 used to do a fantastic job with continuity, but in recent years they've been slipping. I wouldn't say it's there yet, but it's progressing more toward the Trek's treatment of it in recent years. And this one, to me, is a fairly big one. You don't have 3 episodes with a device that could (and in one case, did) save Earth, and not make a mention of it. It seems like a bad move.

If I'd written the film, it would certainly have been mentioned (of course, there would have been an actual battle and the destruction of the other earth ships, too, and the Antarctic outpost. In fact, I'd have basically totalled the SG program's assets)

At least get rid of the ancient outpost, along with a couple other goodies like the phase cloak. The humans have too many goodies at this point, and I think that's why these continuity problems keep coming up. Either way, I agree, there should have been a battle. No less than on the order of "All My Sins..."

but I didn't find that the lack of a phase cloak in any way harmed my enjoyment of the film.

Well, it did for me, for the reasons mentioned above.

Yes, I'm a fan of certainty of death against a concerted Ori attack. Frankly, the Ori and their followers are so overwhelmingly powerful that the logical end of the arc is the destruction or prostration of Earth and total conversion of the Milky Way Galaxy and beyond.

I guess I posed that question as more of a "if you were in command, would you cloak or fight?", rather than what is best for dramatic effect.

And yes, they gave up in one universe, doesn't mean they'd do the same in another. Adria, for a start, has far more reason to be concerned about the Tau'ri than the Ori did, and doubtless, getting the place wiped out is much higher on her list of priorities.

Possibly, but then as you say, logically if she was so concerned she'd tell her ships to drop out of hyperspace lined up with Antarctica and open fire before the outpost can fire rather than sit way the hell out and do nothing.

Never mind that for all you know, The Road Not Taken's Earth was wiped out by having its moon turned into a black hole, the sun detonated in a supernova or some such a few days after Sam left. You seem to be objecting to anyone saying 'we're doomed' when a colossally more powerful space power has suddenly devoted all its resources to their destruction.

If anything, the Ori in this universe showed more ineptitude than the Ori in the other galaxy that decided to attack when they arrived rather than hold back. I think we can safely deduce that Earth may have days or weeks (if they have enough power) before anything drastic were to happen. But arguments about what might have happened could go on for days and resolve nothing. It's clear that the lack of mention of a device featured in 3 episodes and touted as something that could save Earth didn't bother your SOD, but it did bother mine.

Suffice it to say that the Replicator waste of time could have been dropped in favor of an Earth attack which included the use (and eventual nullifying) of the phase-shift device.

[NecronLord]

I was rather fond of the replicator plot, though perhaps that's because I've had long enough to retro-fit a sane reason for them randomly taking that guy's body. I did enjoy seeing the scuttling bug form again. Though perhaps that could have been better featured as an episode of Atlantis (it would have well suited the early fourth season) all told.

Also, I think the drones are one thing that might very well work; they seem to have phase-shifted in and of themselves upon occasion, passing through solid objects. Presumably then, they could work through a phase-cloak, provided they were correctly programmed. But that's just speculative.

[Oskuro]

Saw it last night... It felt rather mediocre. There was one thing I liked, even though it's taken more than 10 years for them to do it again.... They've finally shown what happens when you cross the event horizon (the demolecularization thingie we last saw in the STARGATE MOVIE).

The bug replicators, even when shoehorned in, were a nice touch, in the sense that they are cool, unlike the human-form whineplicators. And that borg-ish thingie was cool, reminiscent of Goaul'd domination, but cool.


I'm really not looking forward to the next movie(s), seeing how the writers have no idea about the pacing and structure of a proper movie (and seemingly, not even of a series).

[PREDATOR490]

The reasons why the Replicators took over the guy should be fairly simple. He was the only one capable of telling the crew how to disabel them and potentially had more information about the IOA's secrets.

It still dosent justify the attitude the crew took towards getting that information or the reasoning of the IOA. It is exceptionally retarded to mess around with Replicator weapons when they have the hindsight to know these things are unwieldy in such a use.
At the very least they must realise that by employing a replicator, they are risking their most valuable strategic asset of the Odessy being disected by them and losing the legacy of the Asgard. The very race who got curbstomped by the Replicators to the point of near extinction.

As for getting the information, Weir is willing to employ torture if the stakes are high enough and she is a civilian. We are sitting on a ship completely cut off from reinforcements with a guy who is performing an unauthorised action that puts the ship, galaxy and even their home galaxy in danger. I really cannot fathom why they suddenly become so squemish not to interrogate him or pull the 'motivating' speech routine... except the writers being bankrupt for ideas. If this wasnt bad enough, they become incompetant by locking the guy in a cell, unguarded to get 'assimilated' by the Replicators.

Overall, this entire film was weak and very unsatisfying for the scale they were supposed to encompass. I do not consider watching Adria moving around with sparklie flames very impressive for a being that can supposedly hurl lightning and other godly powers. This entire arc strikes me as the writers stepping into a realm that was too big to navigate with the increasing levels of laziness.

[NecronLord]

The reasons why the Replicators took over the guy should be fairly simple.

And why they didn't just suck his knowledge out and leave his twitching corpse in the cell.

[Dahak]

I didn't like the portrayal of the Alterans in the beginning. Granted, from the little amount of text they had, it was obvious that they had been persecuted and had to hide. But it just didn't seem right how they portrayed them.

I always thought that their homeworld (or base world, whatever...) should be a more technologically advanced portrayal than just a mediaeval hamlet...

[Zac Naloen]

I didn't like the portrayal of the Alterans in the beginning. Granted, from the little amount of text they had, it was obvious that they had been persecuted and had to hide. But it just didn't seem right how they portrayed them.

I always thought that their homeworld (or base world, whatever...) should be a more technologically advanced portrayal than just a mediaeval hamlet...

Well, they appeared to be hiding in a mountain in the middle of nowhere, presumably from persecution.

Although they were within a mountain it was still a spaceship. (and an extra galactic one, suggesting they have inter-galactic travel abilities already so it's possible that wasn't their homeworld. It's never specifically stated as such.)

[Old Plympto]

That was underwhelming.

The story could have used a bit more polishing. And the last 30 minutes' editing just didn't flow very well. Doesn't stand up well against other epic storylines, say, The Reckoning Parts 1 & 2.

I saw Heroes Parts 1 and 2 again recently, and although it's a whole different ball game in storytelling terms, is light years ahead of the Ark of Truth.

I was hoping for a ending when Daniel asked about the Ark and Landry tells him it's being studied by top men. Top. Men.

[JME2]

I was hoping for a ending when Daniel asked about the Ark and Landry tells him it's being studied by top men. Top. Men.

Yeah, my roommates and I collectively booed at that. We all wanted a shot of a warehouse with the Ark of Truth being put into a crate. That would have been funny as hell. Still, I wonder if that means it might pop up in Atlantis at some point.

[Gustav32Vasa]

I was hoping for a ending when Daniel asked about the Ark and Landry tells him it's being studied by top men. Top. Men.

Yeah, my roommates and I collectively booed at that. We all wanted a shot of a warehouse with the Ark of Truth being put into a crate. That would have been funny as hell. Still, I wonder if that means it might pop up in Atlantis at some point.

It could, the Wraith have a Hivemind so it could be used on them. On the Asurans as well.

[CaptJodan]

It could, the Wraith have a Hivemind so it could be used on them. On the Asurans as well.

To what end? To confirm the truth that, yes, the Wraith need human food to survive? To confirm to the Asurans that the Ancients screwed them over?

I'm not sure what the Ark could do in that circumstance. Sure, it could help against Wraith Worshipers, but the wraith aren't following a misguided philosophy as far as I know, they're just trying to survive.

[Gustav32Vasa]

It could, the Wraith have a Hivemind so it could be used on them. On the Asurans as well.

To what end? To confirm the truth that, yes, the Wraith need human food to survive? To confirm to the Asurans that the Ancients screwed them over?

I'm not sure what the Ark could do in that circumstance. Sure, it could help against Wraith Worshipers, but the wraith aren't following a misguided philosophy as far as I know, they're just trying to survive.

The Ark can be reprogrammed to another setting then the truth.

[CaptJodan]

Actually, Daniel says "Supposing someone figures out how to reprogram it", meaning no one knows how to do so and it isn't clear whether it can be reprogrammed yet. Maybe it can, maybe it can't.

Besides, then you'd have to rename the damn thing to the Ark of Lies.

[NecronLord]

It probably can't work on the Asurans anyway. They're machines. Even more, the writers seem to endorse the idea (the Asurans can't ascend) that there is something special (a soul) about CHON that machines can't replicate, which means there's an even greater difference between biological organisms and machines, there.

[Darth Onasi]

It probably can't work on the Asurans anyway. They're machines. Even more, the writers seem to endorse the idea (the Asurans can't ascend) that there is something special (a soul) about CHON that machines can't replicate, which means there's an even greater difference between biological organisms and machines, there.

Admittedly I've missed a lot of Atlantis season 4 due to lack of interest, but isn't the stated reason for the Asurans being unable to ascend their inability to overcome their hostile nature?
Niam seemed to think if adjustments were made to their programming, they could in fact ascend.