Wrecks of HK Kormoran and HMAS Sydney found

[Thanas]

Eat this, conspiracy whackos

The wreck of the German merchant raider Kormoran, believed responsible for the war-time sinking of HMAS Sydney in November 1941, has been found off the Western Australian coast.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, along with Australian Defence Force heads, announced the discovery at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra today.

He said the search body called Finding Sydney made the discovery yesterday, about 150km west of Shark Bay.

"We are one step closer as a nation to hopefully finding Sydney," Mr Rudd said.

"This is an important part in solving a 65-year-old puzzle."

Australia's greatest maritime mystery claimed the lives of the Sydney's 645 crew.

Sailing from Sumatra back to Fremantle in November 1941, the warship encountered what purported to be the Dutch freighter Straat Malakka off the West Australian coast.

But the freighter was really the disguised German mercantile raider Kormoran.

After an ensuing fight, the Sydney went down with all hands and represents the greatest ever loss of life in an Australian warship.

It was also the largest vessel of any country to be lost with no survivors during the Second World War.

The 317 survivors from the 397 crew aboard Kormoran were picked up over ensuing days, giving the only eyewitness accounts of what occurred.

I sure would love to see some pictures of the wreck, but none are available online to my knowledge.

Thread title amended by order or the author.
-AV

[Flagg]

What's the relation to conspiracy theories?

[Stark]

Obviously a light cruiser can't go down to a merchant raider! It must have been a conspiracy! It was probably the Philadephia Experiment, to be honest. Kormoran FROM THE FUTURE!

[Thanas]

Just google "Sydney", "Kormoran" and "battle" and I guarantee you will get a few hits.

A short summary: HMAS Sydney's captain let his ship wander too close to the disguised HK Kormoran, in the ensuing duel both ships received mortal damage and there were no survivors among the Sydney's crew.

Now, because of the emotional impact on the Australian public, several conspiracy theories have sprung up, most notable the idea of a japanese sub torpedoing the sydney, and the germans executing survivors of the sydney.

If the wreck has battle damage, it kinda makes the "Japanese torpedo theory" moot, and I imagine the position of the Kormoran will be an important step in the search of the wreck of the Sydney.

[Stark]

Yeah, both ships being nearby puts paid to all the stupid crap: Kormoran jumped Sydney and both ships sunk due to battle damage (although apparently it's possible Kormoran was scuttled). Kormoran apparently had concealed torpedoes, and Sydney was only a Leander-class: at 1000m and taken by surprise she'd have no fucking chance to avoid tremendous damage.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

IIRC, Kormoran could bear four 5.9in guns to the broadside, along with two 37mm and multiple 20mm, and had two above-water torpedo tubes to the side and one fixed submerged tube to the side. Engaging at 1000m, Sydney's armour could not resist 5.9in AP shells, which means that as best as can be told the Sydney's conning tower (probably with command crew inside) was destroyed, and if they were on the deck bridge, they were chopped to bits by autocannon fire at that range, leaving the ship leaderless, and having gotten only one salvo out, 5.9in shells in short succession punched through the armour of the Sydney's forward turrets and knocked them both out. The crews of X and Y turrets, however, managed to get into the battle independently with X turret showing well, heavily damaging the Kormoran though Y turret was also able to get off a few salvoes.

By this time the Sydney had also been struck by a torpedo, but had nonetheless regained steering and tried to cross over to bring her starboard tubes to bear, which she did, but the torpedoes missed. Her reconaissance floatplane by that point was on fire, and B turret, either because of internal fires and a failure to flood it, or later hits, exploded violently, adding into a raging inferno on the cruiser as she headed off to the southwest. By that time, however, her gunfire had succeeded in knocking out Kormoran's engines, and the ship was sinking, though slowly. The scuttling charges were mainly a precautionary measure against other allied ships arriving to board her for secret documents and so on before she sank--she was lost to Sydney's gunfire, even if the charges technically put her under.

It was around midnight, IIRC, when the Germans in their boats saw a great flash off on the horizon, which was likely a magazine going up. That neatly explains why all the crew died--the average number of survivors from a British-designed ship having a catastrophic magazine failure at sea in battle has been 3 out of 1000 for battlecruisers, for instance--as they stood with their ship until the very last, desperately fighting both flooding and fires until the fires overwhelmed them and, before they could abandon ship, reached one of the magazines and detonated it. If there were a couple survivors they were probably burned by flaming oil on the surface and died of injuries and exposure in hours.

[Thanas]

The german gunners also reported that there was all kind of flammable stuff lying on the deck, and neither the Sydney's guns were ready to fire and a great deal of the crew were exposed, and the german gunnery - according to those same gunners - managed to hit the forward guns immediately.

That the Australians managed to even return fire under such conditions and hit the Kormoran's engine room (which is why the germans had to abandon the ship, iirc) is something.

Of course, the thing would have been a shoo-in for the allies if the Sydney's captain hadn't been that stupid as to get within spitting distance of an unidentified ship. Certainly that takes a special kind of disregard for protocol. Not as stupid as that german Kaleun getting drunk on champagne after celebrating a sunken escort - while still being near other escorts - but still.

[tim31]

And now they say they've found the Sydney!

If K-Rudd says it's so...

Place your bets on what happens next!

[Thanas]

Here's the full text of the article.

The wreckage of HMAS Sydney should be left in its place as a war grave so the 645 sailors who died on the warship can rest in peace, the chairman of the Finding Sydney Foundation said today.

"For a start they're in very deep water," Ted Graham said.

"From my point of view ... they contain the remains of many people and our firm view is that they should be left alone."

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said the discovery of the HMAS Sydney, sunk by the German raider Kormoran off the coast of West Australia in November 1941, would help bring closure to the families of the 645 crew members who perished.

Mr Rudd confirmed at a press conference in Canberra this morning the discovery of the warship in waters about 800 kilometres north of Perth.

The wreckage of the merchant raider Kormoran was found yesterday.

"The pain and family loss at 65 years removed is still pain, and very deep pain," Mr Rudd said.

"I would say to all members of the family of the crew of HMAS Sydney, our Government sends our condolences for the loss of these brave young men.

"This is a day ... which begins a process of closure for many families of the crew of the Sydney.

"It's also a time for the nation to reflect on the bravery of all the men who gave their lives in the defence of this country in this particularly brutal and bloody engagement."

He dismissed the possibility of raising the wreckage.

"We will treat these war dead ... with complete respect."

Mr Rudd said the Government had begun the process of protecting the wrecks.

"I wish to confirm that under the Historic Shipwrecks Act, the Minister for Environment is in the process of issuing an interim protection order for both vessels."

Mr Rudd thanked the Finding Sydney Foundation and the navy for their efforts in finding the vessels.

He said the Australian Defence Force would be communicating with family members.

''They will be using their own communications systems to make sure that the surviving family members of the crew of HMAS Sydney are informed of this discovery as soon as is practically possible."

Mr Rudd said the order would prohibit any unauthorised intrusion into the site. "It is the protection mechanism we have available to us under Australian law."

Mr Rudd said the hull had been found largely intact.

The Sydney's entire crew of 645 went down with the ship in the Indian Ocean and its location has been a mystery for 66 years.

Chief executive of the Finding Sydney Foundation, Bob Trotter, said an announcement would be made later today, but his organisation was "pretty confident" evidence of the Sydney wreckage had been found.

Very large pieces of wreckage had been located about four kilometres from where the wreck of the Kormoran was found on Saturday, he told ABC Radio.

"Things have yet to be confirmed," Mr Trotter told ABC Radio.

"I'm not in a position at the moment to give an absolute that Sydney itself has been found.

Mr Potter said traces of the Sydney had been found in the field of action where the Australian cruiser and the Kormoran engaged on November 19, 1941.

"The search ship and its sonar have found very large pieces of wreckage about four kilometres from the wreck of Kormoran which don't appear to be from the Kormoran, therefore are more likely to be from the Sydney," Mr Trotter said.

He said the chances were "fairly good" the wreckage of the Sydney had been found.

"The (search) ship is out there now doing passes over the wreckage and in that area up to 10 kilometres away from the Kormoran because that's where we believe she (HMAS Sydney) must be, given the evidence of the last sighting of the Sydney in 1941 by the German survivors."

Mr Trotter likened the search for Sydney as climbing Mount Everest.

"Now we're on our backsides sliding down."

Ean McDonald, a signalman on board the Sydney until 1939, described reports of the finding as "momentous news".

He queried whether the location of the Sydney and the Kormoran had been kept secret by "hierarchy".

"There's always been that side of the mystery," he told ABC Radio.

Mr McDonald said the Sydney would have been sending out signals during the pitched battle with the Kormoran.

"There is this conspiracy theory which a lot of people hold."

McDonald needs to shut up though IMO. Considering the state of the ship when she was engaged and the volume of fire she was under I don't really doubt that the radio station was destroyed.

[tim31]

Isn't that one of the first things a Q-ship would go for??

[The Yosemite Bear]

well as per the Germans they did hit the command and control/bridge tower first, I guess the whole wireless was shredded when that happened....

[Thanas]

^Right. However, in this case, the german gunners said that they opened fire on the gun turrets (who were open) and the upperstructure with machineguns, while the heavy guns were targeting the guns directly, iirc. Apparently there were plenty of exposed crewmen due to the ship not being combat ready by all accounts.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

So essentially the ship was caught with its pants down, and people are trying to deny it out of national pride? Figures.

[Stark]

It shouldn't be surprising: even in highschool, it was pretty much understood what happened. It's only idiots who want to overcomplicate things or want to excuse the dead from their mistakes that come up with this shit.

HMAS Sydney had a good career, and I guess some don't want to accept that a light cruiser can get raped at close range when taken completely by surprise.

[thejester]

It's supposed to be 'largely intact', which opens up the debate on what exactly sent her down.

[Thanas]

The Bismarck's wreck is almost completely intact as well, so I don't know how a largely intact wreck is supposed to reopen a debate...most ships sink due to flooding, not because they break apart.

[Isolder74]

The Bismarck's wreck is almost completely intact as well, so I don't know how a largely intact wreck is supposed to reopen a debate...most ships sink due to flooding, not because they break apart.

After the hammering the Bismark took that makes for a HUGE case that a ship being found 'intact' aka in one piece is hardly any proof the ship wasn't attacked. The Bismark was a wreck when it went down.

Any ruling on hos the Sidney sunk will have to wait until the wreck can be maticulassly studied. Until then how it sank is very much not worth speculating about.

[weemadando]

It's supposed to be 'largely intact', which opens up the debate on what exactly sent her down.

The Arizona is largely intact too.

It's certainly no less sunk however.

[Thanas]

The Bismarck's wreck is almost completely intact as well, so I don't know how a largely intact wreck is supposed to reopen a debate...most ships sink due to flooding, not because they break apart.

After the hammering the Bismark took that makes for a HUGE case that a ship being found 'intact' aka in one piece is hardly any proof the ship wasn't attacked. The Bismark was a wreck when it went down.

Thanks for repeating my point.

[Thanas]

A quick update:

Press release

Sonar images of the wreck of the Sydney

Sonar images of the wreck of the Kormoran

[Stark]

Yeah, it looks pretty much like the forward magazine blew off the bow ahead of the superstructure. That'll kill your ship pretty good.

[JME2]

Despite being an aficionado of maritime history, I'd never heard of the matter of the Sydney and the Kormoran (or if I've have, it's been a while). Either way, this looks very interesting; thanks for posting this, Thanas.

[Thanas]

Yeah, it looks pretty much like the forward magazine blew off the bow ahead of the superstructure. That'll kill your ship pretty good.

Which would also fit with the version of the germans, who claimed they saw the ship's forward section being aflame.

thanks for posting this, Thanas.

You're very welcome.

Another update: Official statement and press conference

I especially like this section:

QUESTION:

[Indistinct] surprised that the two ships are so close together?

RUSS SHALDERS:

No, in fact, the disposition of the wrecks is as it was reported by the survivors of the Kormoran at the time, surprisingly so.

QUESTION:

Were they right all along?

RUSS SHALDERS:

It seems so, yes.

[Coyote]

National pride, hell-- there's nothing to be ashamed of. If the Sydney was completely unprepared for battle, got hit by a surprise attack, weathered it sufficiently to respond to battle stations and send the attacker to the deep before sliding under the waves herself... that's pretty good.

I'm no naval expert, but that to me would be like the US forces at Pearl being able to react to the Japanese attack sufficiently to shoot down all the planes despite grevious losses inflicted on our ships. It would be a hell of a response to an unexpected attack.

I'd say only the Captain could be at fault, for making the assumption that any maritime stop & inspect would be "routine" enough that there was no need for action stations. Even if they thought it was a Dutch ship, by that time the Dutch were occupied by the Germans anyway so I'd criticise the Captain for not being suspicious of a Dutch flag. The crew, however, certainly performed well.

[Dartzap]

You wait for one and three turn up at the same time.....

HMS Hunter was found a few weeks ago as well, heh.