Overweight people who violates the laws of thermodynamics?

[cosmicalstorm]

I've had a prolonged debate with an (obese) friend of mine, we've been talking about his weight-issues, to make a long story short he claims that some people simply cant help the fact that they are fat.

I told him that if they accepted a lifestyle of rigorous excersize and healthy eating-habits, it should be virtually impossible for them to gain extra weight.

But he insists that "some people simply have the wrong genes, it dosent matter what they do, they still go fat"...
To me that sounds ridicuolous, it would violate the laws of thermodynamics.

In my opinion people who are overweight are so because they are either eating too much or moving their bodies too little, im sure genes can make it easier or harder for some people to gain/lose weight, but thats it, you cant grow fat on thin air.

Or did I miss something here?

[Spin Echo]

I've had a prolonged debate with an (obese) friend of mine, we've been talking about his weight-issues, to make a long story short he claims that some people simply cant help the fact that they are fat.

I told him that if they accepted a lifestyle of rigorous excersize and healthy eating-habits, it should be virtually impossible for them to gain extra weight.

But he insists that "some people simply have the wrong genes, it dosent matter what they do, they still go fat"...
To me that sounds ridicuolous, it would violate the laws of thermodynamics.

In my opinion people who are overweight are so because they are either eating too much or moving their bodies too little, im sure genes can make it easier or harder for some people to gain/lose weight, but thats it, you cant grow fat on thin air.

Or did I miss something here?

I recommend reading this thread.

A lot of people are overweight because they eat too much and move too little, but there are some people are overweight because they got dealt a shit genetic hand.

[Mr Bean]

Tell your friend the following very closely

Even a person with a very slow metabolism burns a minimum of 850 calories a day laying in bed all day. Your average barely active person(Sitting at a desk for 12 hours a day, walking around less than an hour) burns about 1,100 to 1,200 calories.

And if you do any exercise at all, it's possible to get that up to 3,000 to as much as 9,000 with very heavy exercise.

Now then put this to him as such

If X is the amount of food he eats each day, and X is greater than the amount he burns each day, he will by definition be gaining weight.

It's that fucking simple you dumb-fat fuck
Ok you might want to skip the last part depending on the friend, but I have no tolerance of people 75 or more pounds overweight. To stay that fat you need EFFORT, you need to try to gain weight, you need to spend more than average and due less than average to get that big. Even Pregnate woman, only 40-50 pounds is the max for weight gained due to pregnancy. So if you except my limit I have no sympthay for you. 20-30 pounds over? Your overweight but with two months of effort you can be in shape, 40? Your pushing it but you might have a valid excuse 50-65? Unless your pregnate you have issues, and as mentioned 75+, you are trying to stay that weight.


I am aware there are people who do have eating disorders, who never for example don't stop being hungry, and I know there are a few other reasons for gaining to much excess weight, but those people with those conditions are so rare that it's a non-issue for 99.995% of the American population

[Broomstick]

You know, even if someone IS dealt a bad hand with genes or disease, they can STILL maintain a reasonable weight. It's much harder for them, yes, and they'll need extra help sometimes, but NO ONE is really doomed to be obese. Overweight, yes, there are some conditions that make it very hard to avoid that, but even people with sometimes severe medical conditions can exert some control over the situation.

True, for many people fashion model stick-thin is impossible to reach - so what? A healthy weight is achievable.

[The Spartan]

As Spin Echo and Mr Bean have noted, what you're saying is largely true.

From the sound of things, my impression is that your friend is one of the people who has tried to lose weight at some point but they do so by trying to do one thing or by seeking a magic solution, putting in a token effort, not seeing results and giving up. But losing weight isn't easy. It can be quite hard and it requires work and work isn't fun. Well, it is for me but that's another discussion.

But it can be done, I know from experience having lost near 60 lbs from my peak and around 6 inches off my waist.

Of course, I did this by strictly (more or less) watching what I eat and excercising. A lot. And I fell of the wagon more than once.

[cosmicalstorm]

I recommend reading this thread.

A lot of people are overweight because they eat too much and move too little, but there are some people are overweight because they got dealt a shit genetic hand.

This is the part that bothers me, even if you're genes suck it should only be a matter of watching your intake/output more closely, surely you're genes could'nt possibly create fat out of pure nothingness?

[Spin Echo]

This is the part that bothers me, even if you're genes suck it should only be a matter of watching your intake/output more closely, surely you're genes could'nt possibly create fat out of pure nothingness?

No, but they can make it much more difficult for a person to maintain a normal weight. People with underactive thyroids can still gain weight on a low calorie diet with rigorous exercise. Type I Diabetics also can have issues because their insulin causes fat storage. And remember, you also need food for nutrients, not just calories. A person with a very slow metabolism may have issues with malnourishment if they cut back their food intake to the point where energy in = energy out.

But seriously, in your friends case, it more sounds like he's looking for an excuse opposed to actually having a real genetic issue.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

This is the part that bothers me, even if you're genes suck it should only be a matter of watching your intake/output more closely, surely you're genes could'nt possibly create fat out of pure nothingness?

Read the thread that he linked to. It doesn't explain everything, but there's some information there. It doesn't boil down to "creating fat out of pure nothingness", though... and like Broomstick said, while some conditions make being overweight very difficult to avoid, obesity can be avoided no matter what. It may be harder for them, than the average person, but they can still do it.

[FSTargetDrone]

True, for many people fashion model stick-thin is impossible to reach - so what? A healthy weight is achievable.

Slight tangent since you mentioned it, I would hope that everyone avoids the "fashion model stick-thin" goal. Some models are so skinny it's completely unappealing. I've never understood the attraction of that.

[FireNexus]

It can be easy to lose weight, it just requires getting yourself into patterns of behavior. Running for 5 minutes a day this week, then ten minutes next week at a slightly faster pace. Cutting out easily consumed calories (like soda or beer) and eating foods with a lower energy density. It requires psyching yourself out mentally, but it's certainly doable.

But thermodynamics is definitely in play, and being 20-30 pounds overweight is sometimes unavoidable. Some people's bodies will do whatever it takes to prevent the weight gain to a healthy weight.

Of course, with the coming food shortage, the real fatties will have a slight advantage, at least for a while, if they can hoard vitamin supplements.

[Darth Wong]

True, for many people fashion model stick-thin is impossible to reach - so what? A healthy weight is achievable.

Slight tangent since you mentioned it, I would hope that everyone avoids the "fashion model stick-thin" goal. Some models are so skinny it's completely unappealing. I've never understood the attraction of that.

To be honest, I'm a little tired of people bitching about stick-thin models, because all too often, they use that as an excuse to be overweight. If there weren't this ulterior motive I would be OK with it because I don't like the super-thin look either, but I've seen way too many seriously obese people talking about stick-thin models with that smug look on their faces that says "See? I'm actually healthy! That's why I'm standing in the lineup at the grocery store with eight 2L bottles of soda in my cart and a tub of ice cream!"

[Zixinus]

Personally I see this whole "overweight" issue overblown. Am I the only person that thinks that we have a bit screwed priorities when we are bitching about fat people when 1/3 of the world is starving and the 1/3 isn't eating properly (no, I can't cite numbers).

Sure, being overweight can cause problems, but that doesn't mean that overweight people are subhuman or something. Stupidity is a far, far worse condition in my opinion.

This is the part that bothers me, even if you're genes suck it should only be a matter of watching your intake/output more closely, surely you're genes could'nt possibly create fat out of pure nothingness?

Of course. It's only the small matter that most people JUST FUCKING EAT AND DON'T CALCULATE THEIR FUCKING DAILY INTAKE.

Or you didn't consider that option?

[Korvan]

The human body can be very good at conserving energy and maintaining energy reserves (fat). It can't violate the laws of thermodynamics but it can put a stranglehold on releasing fat to be burned and also send strong signals telling you to eat.

A while back I ended up putting on a few pounds and weighed in at 210. I was noticeably pudgy at this weight and I wanted to drop some of it. I cut out a lot of the junk food and upped the exercise. I was doing over an hour of biking each day (my commute) and did weights three times a week. In about 4 months I dropped fairly rapidly to 180 and then was stuck there. I wasn't able to drop below that weight and while I certainly didn't look at all pudgy anymore, I definitely still had plenty of stored fat left.

What was happening is my body adjusted and stopped letting fat be burned so easily. This lack of energy cause me to become tired sooner while exercising and I slowed down, just a little bit. Also I was eating more, not a lot more, but just enough to fully fuel the amount of exercise I was doing. The changes were very subtle, but were enough to keep me plateaued for months.

Now, I could've overcome that by upping the effort I put in and my body would have responded by eventually releasing the extra energy I needed. But I had grown comfortable with my routine. Exercise no longer required a major effort to do to and I was happy with my current appearance and fitness level and all my old clothes fit again, so I didn't do what was needed to drop that last 10 pounds as to reach 170 (my original goal).

Fat people aren't violating the laws of physics, but their bodies are working against them and they haven't the necessary strength of will and the motivation to reach the effort needed for serious long term body changes. And in some cases, the level of effort needed to effect change would literally kill them.

The best way to lose weight is not to gain it in the first place, but our western lifestyle of excess and convenience does not really encourage that. However, times are achanging and I have little doubt that the health and fitness of the west will improve, at least in those that make it.

[Atlan]

Personally I see this whole "overweight" issue overblown. Am I the only person that thinks that we have a bit screwed priorities when we are bitching about fat people when 1/3 of the world is starving and the 1/3 isn't eating properly (no, I can't cite numbers).

Sure, being overweight can cause problems, but that doesn't mean that overweight people are subhuman or something. Stupidity is a far, far worse condition in my opinion.

This is the part that bothers me, even if you're genes suck it should only be a matter of watching your intake/output more closely, surely you're genes could'nt possibly create fat out of pure nothingness?

Of course. It's only the small matter that most people JUST FUCKING EAT AND DON'T CALCULATE THEIR FUCKING DAILY INTAKE.

Or you didn't consider that option?

I find that slightly ironic, because you just mentioned that you think stupidity is a bad thing.
Well guess what? Becoming a fat fuck IS stupid. Especially for those who can avoid it by doing things like calculating intake vs. energy spend. For most westerners there is NO valid excuse for being a fat slob, for lowering ones life expectancy, increasing the risk of diabeties, being a burden on a already overworked health system, etc.
Fucking stupid is EXACTLY what "JUST FUCKING EAT AND DON'T CALCULATE THEIR FUCKING DAILY INTAKE" is.

[Molyneux]

It can be easy to lose weight, it just requires getting yourself into patterns of behavior. Running for 5 minutes a day this week, then ten minutes next week at a slightly faster pace. Cutting out easily consumed calories (like soda or beer) and eating foods with a lower energy density. It requires psyching yourself out mentally, but it's certainly doable.

Speaking of which - is there any easy-to-find, reliable listing of low-energy-density foods, aside from just "eat green vegetables!"?

[Broomstick]

Other than vegetables? "Just eat plain whole grains".

[Ariphaos]

Or did I miss something here?

Yes. Genetics includes behavioral traits, not just physical ones.

I've also mentioned the effects of corn syrup on diets before. I don't think it's a coincidence that America's obesity 'epidemic' began with its rise after the sugar tariffs started in the 80's.

[Broomstick]

The problem with corn syrup is not that it's corn syrup - it's been used for candy and baking for well over a century, it's not really new - it's that it's in every fucking thing imaginable. It's just empty calories added to foods and beverages.

[Ariphaos]

The problem with corn syrup is not that it's corn syrup - it's been used for candy and baking for well over a century, it's not really new - it's that it's in every fucking thing imaginable. It's just empty calories added to foods and beverages.

To wit, every time I cut something with corn syrup out of my diet entirely, I lost weight. Not just pop, but ketchup, BBQ sauce, etc. etc.

[Broomstick]

I think part of the confusion regarding food intake/exercise/weight control is that, since you're talking about biological critters, it's really not as cut and dried as calorie-counters would have you believe.

For example, if some reference says X activity burns Y calories there's no mention that that is an average. In actual fact, a large, heavy man running 1 km will burn more calories than a small, light woman simply because he is moving more mass than she is. HOW you go about an activity can affect the caloric burn, as can ambient temperature (you burn more doing outdoor exercise in winter than in summer - up to a point). How efficiently your body works is also a factor - stronger muscles and better coordination may affect caloric burn.

On top of that, how the body intakes and processes food varies from person to person also. Some people have more efficient digestion than others (bariatric surgery works by making digestion MUCH less efficient in a very brute-force manner). There are biological disorders than disrupt internal processing (diabetes, thyroid problems, stress hormones, sex hormones, etc.) either of sugar or how food is converted in fat and fat into energy.

On top of that the base metabolic rate of a human body really CAN change dramatically. For example, someone living in a cold climate where their living quarters tend to be chilly will, after a period of time, start to burn more food just to produce body heat and, without additional calories or exercise, will lose weight. When a person is starved they will, after a certain point, fidget less, turn less in their sleep, and physically walk and move more slowly as the body tries to conserve energy. Age affects it, too - adolescents burn food faster than just about anyone, and the elderly need less food than the young and vigorous. So yes, it IS possible for two people to be of the same height and weight and require significantly different amounts of calories to maintain that same weight. I am the same height and weight as when I was in high school, but I eat about half what I did back then - that's just another example. (Of course, knowing I was getting older and exercising less I made the conscious choice to consume less because I didn't want a weight problem)

These factors really can affect weight loss, and the rate of weight loss. In some cases (such as diabetes or endocrine disorders) medical attention is needed not only for weight issues but also because of other pressing problems or even possible mortality. In other cases - well, yes, some people ARE 'blessed" with very efficient digestion and a lower than average base calorie burn. No doubt their ancestors found it very beneficial as a means of surviving famine. Well, such people WILL have to work harder to stay fit in our current world of plenty. That means, yes they WILL have to change eating habits and, I'm sorry, you may have to regularly bike 15 km instead of 10 km to achieve the same results as the average. Regardless, they CAN lose weight. My sister with a severe thyroid problem has managed to keep her weight under control (she's lucky - she's found types of exercise she likes to do). She's not thin by anyone's standard, but aside from that year and a half when the divorce got ugly she's been healthy (and after the divorce was over she got the weight back off. It took a year, but she did it.)

So, I have sympathy for folks who have been dealt the "thrifty genes" and do have a harder time maintaining or losing weight than I do. But that sympathy only goes so far - at some point they need to push back from the table and get off their asses.

[cosmicalstorm]

Well perhaps my view on the matter was a bit too simplistic, but I think that definetly cleared it up a bit for me, thanks!

[PainRack]

Off topic here, but a person shape may be determined by genetics irregardless of his weight. I know people who are at their optimal weight, but look "fat" due to their endometric shape.

Of course, I don't know their body fat ratio, but shapes may be drastically affected by genetics.

In my own case, it was something more weird. My weight stayed the same, and I didn't become more muscular, however, my body shape changed to become more "slimmer" during my time in the airforce.(After I had became overweight).

[Lord Poe]

Check out this guy:

http://losetogain.livejournal.com/?skip=100

http://www.youtube.com/user/losetogain

He lost 236 pounds in 2 years. Being that huge (yup, I'm still hovering in that area) makes it extremely difficult to even WANT to move.Sure everyone would think that, "Fuck it! Get up and exercise!" but believe me, you carry all that shit around all day, the LAST thing you want to do is exercise. So once you get there, its a fucked-up black hole you've gotten yourself into.

And yes, I say gotten YOURSELF in to. As I've said before, in most cases, there's no one to blame but yourself. This guy above, Dustin; I've actually learned a lot more from him. than anything from Weight Watchers.

[Darth Wong]

Check out this guy:

http://losetogain.livejournal.com/?skip=100

http://www.youtube.com/user/losetogain

He lost 236 pounds in 2 years. Being that huge (yup, I'm still hovering in that area) makes it extremely difficult to even WANT to move.Sure everyone would think that, "Fuck it! Get up and exercise!" but believe me, you carry all that shit around all day, the LAST thing you want to do is exercise. So once you get there, its a fucked-up black hole you've gotten yourself into.

And yes, I say gotten YOURSELF in to. As I've said before, in most cases, there's no one to blame but yourself. This guy above, Dustin; I've actually learned a lot more from him. than anything from Weight Watchers.

Isn't Weight Watchers just a scam to get you to buy their branded products? I know I see a lot of Weight Watchers packaged foods at the grocery store, and they're not cheap.

[Broomstick]

No.

Weight Watchers does NOT require you to buy anything with their name on it. Their system is designed so you can get your food from anywhere. The stuff with their name on it is for convenience and very much optional.

That said, I know a trucker who took off 80lbs with Jenny Craig's pre-packaged food and he's kept it off for several years now. For him, the problem was mostly portion control - he tend to keep eating until the food is gone, as many people were taught to do when young. The package is, apparently, easy to store in his truck and filling enough so when it's gone he doesn't go seeking more food. Since he has to buy food for the road anyhow it works out, and it's a damn sight healthier than what he used to eat so he feels it's money well spent.

A lot of it is finding out what works for the person in question. For my trucker friend it was pre-packaged food. For my sister with the thyroid problem it was regular 20-50 mile bike rides (she's been known to bike 90 miles, her house to our parents' home, spend the night, and bike back in a day or two).