Terminator: Could Cameron have a baby?

[Anarchist Bunny]

They did address the weight issue in the show. In their second visit to the safe house when Cameron gets shocked and they have to bail, rather than having one or both of them pick the petite Summer Glau up and tossing her out a window, Sarah pulls a wheeled chair over to her, both her and John lift her into it, and then she wheels her over to the window and dumps her out.

[tim31]

I could throw Summer Glau out the window with one hand: damn straight people would notice.

But I bet she's a special magical type of Terminator invented especially for Neighbours.

Don't promise something you can't deliver, man.

But anyway, is this question even justified? I've only watched a few episodes of this show and Cameron actually seems to be colder towards John. Is this just fanboy ho-ho-I'd-love-to-see-them-shack-up-because-I-could-pretend-it's-actually-me nonsense??

[Gerald Tarrant]

...and Cromartie being a complete asshole who enjoys proving his superiority is the only reason I can think of for him to not shoot Ellission at the end of the season finale.

I think he thinks of Ellison (sp?) as an asset, it's Ellison's job to find Sarah Conner, which is what Cromartie needs. Cromartie might still try to keep tabs on Ellison, while performing his own search, he just probably won't be able to use an FBI cover anymore.

[Thanas]

^agreed.

But anyway, is this question even justified? I've only watched a few episodes of this show and Cameron actually seems to be colder towards John. Is this just fanboy ho-ho-I'd-love-to-see-them-shack-up-because-I-could-pretend-it's-actually-me nonsense??

Look for yourself. (There is another scene where he caresses her face, but couldn't find it, so this and this screencap will have to suffice) Honestly, I don't know. Some people interpret it as attraction, others do not. As for what we see on the show is that John is willing to defend her against almost any accusation thrown at her. (Even when a few seconds earlier, she flat out told him she lies about important things).

Me? Don't really care as long as ships do not mess up the show (like in BSG).

Don't terminators weigh a fair bit? In T3 I think it's some firefighters or paramedics that try to move Arnie and one of them comments he weights a ton. While I could see prolonged contact with a canny terminator as possible, I can't believe anyone could fuck one and not notice a) the horribly different skeleton and b) the weight difference. I don't know how much Cameron is supposed to weigh but it's got to be a noticeable step up on Summer Glau's actual weight.

Since Sarah was able to throw her out of the window without any help and she is able to sit on rather old wooden chairs, I doubt she weighs that much more than a real human.

[Junghalli]

Well, look, if she isn't "really" eating then where is all that stuff going? I mean she's had at least a few meals since the show began, probably ate at school, and other such instances...it cant all still be in there, rotting away in her empty shell, or else it'd fuck up the works.

It's quite possible that she has something similar to the set-up R Daneel Olivaw in Asimov's books had to allow him to eat. She swallows the food into what basically amounts to a Ziplock bag inside her chassis, which can be conveniently removed, emptied, and cleaned when she has some privacy. Removing might be a bit tricky with the organic envelope, although as an alternative she could just drink a lot of water and use it to clean out some kind of internal container, purging (vomiting, essentially) the food while disposing of the waste water. The ability to swallow food doesn't necessary imply a full digestive tract.

One does have to wonder, though, how a Terminator does sustain its organic components. They'd probably need a urinary system at least to keep it from poisoning itself, which would imply kidneys and perhaps a small rudimentary liver. You'd also need lungs and a heart, to keep it oxygenated. Depending on how far medical tech has advanced by the 2030s in Terminatorverse some of these might be replaced with mechanical equivalents. The simplest way to supply nutrients would be through basically an internal IV bag, although this would have to be replenished periodically, which might be problematic. Perhaps there could be included some sort of purifier which could be used to sift liquids like orange juice into something suitable.

[Thanas]

Well, look, if she isn't "really" eating then where is all that stuff going? I mean she's had at least a few meals since the show began, probably ate at school, and other such instances...it cant all still be in there, rotting away in her empty shell, or else it'd fuck up the works.

It's quite possible that she has something similar to the set-up R Daneel Olivaw in Asimov's books had to allow him to eat. She swallows the food into what basically amounts to a Ziplock bag inside her chassis, which can be conveniently removed, emptied, and cleaned when she has some privacy. Removing might be a bit tricky with the organic envelope, although as an alternative she could just drink a lot of water and use it to clean out some kind of internal container, purging (vomiting, essentially) the food while disposing of the waste water. The ability to swallow food doesn't necessary imply a full digestive tract.

True, however I think it might be far simplier to have her burn it internally. Might even save some energy in the process, and would be far better for an infiltrator unit trying to blend in instead of having her open herself up or vomiting.

[Solauren]

Let's consider a few things about what we know about Carmeron specifically;

1 - She was apparently in use by the resistance before being sent back through time. Enough to understand that reprogrammed terminators go rogue, and how to stop them very freaking quickly

2 - John has apparently had her head open, with her co-operation at least once prior to coming back through time.

3 - We've seen her eat.

4 - She's visually biologically correct.

5 - Other Terminator models (AFAWK) have not been able to identify her model.

6 - She has living, healing skin and other organs.

What do we know about skin and those organs
They need nutirients - this would require the ingestion and digestion of food (eating) as well as it's removal (crapping and pissing), as well as a delivery system (blood, circulartory)

It's fairly possible Carmeron has a rudimentary circulartory system. One that's just enough to keep her skin, eyes, hair, fingernails, teeth and similiar alive.
Such a digestive and circulatory system need not be complicated. In fact, given the nature of the organism in question, they could be rather simple.

Case in point; Look at an Earthworm. Very simple organism, yet it has all the needed support systems listed.

-

Now, as for the original question;
Unless Carmeron's biological support systems are more powerful then they should realistically need to be (which, considering Skynet could be reckless with GE and luck out...) It's unlikely she has the ability to carry a baby to term without risking serious biological damage and losing said baby. More then likely, she'd need serious external assistance. Basically, hook up up to lifesupport.

She's probably capable of sex, as that would be the quickest way to gain a males trust, but I doubt skynet gave her the ability to concieve children.


The only possible way I can see that is if she was an early prototype for what became the T-X. Small, lightweight, incredibly advanced (even by Skynet standards), and highly miniatured and reinforced systems, that leave a lot of left over room.
And had that specifically added in as an ability.

In other words, she was built for that purpose.

Consider this scenario;
Skynet has wiped out all of humanity, but has all there DNA, and he can make 950's (humans with cyborg brains Skynet and remote control)
950's would make a fairly adequete workforce, with the more combat capable, and harder by comparison to mass produce metal models.

They'd need a model to gestate the fetus.

Now, I'm way, way out there with that, but to me, that would make sense.

Wipe out all humans not under my control, while desigin a replacement model (the 950s)
Design a terminator model that could carry 950's to term for implantation to grow into worker units.

The 950's become a worker unit
the 800s, T-X, and the like (the high tech body ones) become warriors
Skynet is the Queen.

In short, Skynet builds a giant mechanized insect colony, and it spreads out.
Ruthless, efficient, and if more organics are met, they may not realise they are dealing with cyborgs / machines until Skynet's already designed 950 subtype Alien 1s

[Anarchist Bunny]

Actually I was incorrect about the scene. There is a little internal scan of her frame work by that T-888, and it simply reads "Subject: Unknown Cyborg" which could as easily mean its an unknown type as it could mean that its another cyborg or a familiar type that is unknown to him.

And I'm leaning to the latter because it then reads to reevaluate. If it was a unknown type of cyborg I think its response would be to destroy. But if it is possibly another one of Skynet's Infiltrators sent on a mission unfamiliar to it, its best course of action would be to reevaluate the situation rather than possibly interfering with another mission.

[Thanas]

And I'm leaning to the latter because it then reads to reevaluate. If it was a unknown type of cyborg I think its response would be to destroy. But if it is possibly another one of Skynet's Infiltrators sent on a mission unfamiliar to it, its best course of action would be to reevaluate the situation rather than possibly interfering with another mission.

I disagree. You notice it first reads evade and then reevaluate. And evasion seems to be a correct decision when an unknown enemy has demonstrated a) comparable/equal strength and b) has backup.

That is not a favorite tactical situation. Evasion is the correct and prudent choice. Furthermore, Cameron is not a familiar type, because she is the first terminator of that size seen in canon. Even Cromartie had not identified her, despite looking at her for several seconds in the pilot.

[weemadando]

Solauren:

1 - She was apparently in use by the resistance before being sent back through time. Enough to understand that reprogrammed terminators go rogue, and how to stop them very freaking quickly.

-Yes, this is the case, she may well be another of the "anti-terminator" models.

2 - John has apparently had her head open, with her co-operation at least once prior to coming back through time.

-Yes.

3 - We've seen her eat.

-No. We've seen her put food in her mouth and "swallow" on one occasion - which was when Derek made the comment about "them never eating." There's no other cases that I can recall where we have seen her ingest anything. And even then - in this one case it didn't look particularly comfortable or natural. Isn't it entirely possible that it is still lodged in her "throat" for later regurgitation? Given that she talks through a speaker, doesn't need to breath etc?

4 - She's visually biologically correct.

-And what previous terminator hasn't been?

5 - Other Terminator models (AFAWK) have not been able to identify her model.

-Indeed they haven't.

6 - She has living, healing skin and other organs.

-What other organs? Skin and "muscle" yes, but where have other organs ever been mentioned?

[Thanas]

Let's consider a few things about what we know about Carmeron specifically;

1 - She was apparently in use by the resistance before being sent back through time. Enough to understand that reprogrammed terminators go rogue, and how to stop them very freaking quickly

2 - John has apparently had her head open, with her co-operation at least once prior to coming back through time.

3 - We've seen her eat.

4 - She's visually biologically correct.

5 - Other Terminator models (AFAWK) have not been able to identify her model.

6 - She has living, healing skin and other organs.

You forgot one curious fact about her - she was not merely in use by the resistance, she was Connor's aide-de-camp and for all we know, the only person with unlimited access to him.

What do we know about skin and those organs
They need nutirients - this would require the ingestion and digestion of food (eating) as well as it's removal (crapping and pissing), as well as a delivery system (blood, circulartory)

You are operating under the assumption that her skin is human-like in nature. To me the skin flap would suggest otherwise, and her skin may actually just be a very complex fabrication.

In fact, her being able to stand within three feets range of temperatures of ~2000 degrees and not even sweating kinda speaks against her skin being human, or even human-like.

It's fairly possible Carmeron has a rudimentary circulartory system. One that's just enough to keep her skin, eyes, hair, fingernails, teeth and similiar alive.

Assuming they are alive....

Now, as for the original question;
Unless Carmeron's biological support systems are more powerful then they should realistically need to be (which, considering Skynet could be reckless with GE and luck out...) It's unlikely she has the ability to carry a baby to term without risking serious biological damage and losing said baby. More then likely, she'd need serious external assistance. Basically, hook up up to lifesupport.

How would she even conceive a child in the first place? Unless she somewhere stores ovaries, which I find doubtful.

She's probably capable of sex, as that would be the quickest way to gain a males trust

And terribly clichée...

, but I doubt skynet gave her the ability to concieve children.

Again, ovaries...

The only possible way I can see that is if she was an early prototype for what became the T-X. Small, lightweight, incredibly advanced (even by Skynet standards), and highly miniatured and reinforced systems, that leave a lot of left over room.

Cameron is very different from the T-X, both in skeleton structure (her robotic head for example looks nothing like the T-X), composition etc... Oh, and for the purposes of T:SCC, T-3 did not happen.

And had that specifically added in as an ability.
In other words, she was built for that purpose.

Consider this scenario;
Skynet has wiped out all of humanity, but has all there DNA, and he can make 950's (humans with cyborg brains Skynet and remote control)
950's would make a fairly adequete workforce, with the more combat capable, and harder by comparison to mass produce metal models.

They'd need a model to gestate the fetus.

And the only way for Skynet to gestate the fetus would be to build a complex machine who just happens to look like Summer Glau, when a breeding tank would have done the same job, with far lesser expenditure of resources/risk to the fetus?
And just why would Cameron be skin-covered in that instance? And that is assuming Skynet is even interested in having a human population.

Now, I'm way, way out there with that, but to me, that would make sense.

Not to me, sorry.

Wipe out all humans not under my control, while desigin a replacement model (the 950s)

And those would be..who exactly?

Design a terminator model that could carry 950's to term for implantation to grow into worker units.

And Cameron is supposed to be that model? That assumes a) Skynet is interested in borg-like creatures, and it still seems to be a bit of a waste of resources to create a full blown terminator for exactly one purpose - once that is fulfilled (which can be achieved via simplier means), what is there to do with them?

[Thanas]

Solauren:

3 - We've seen her eat.

-No. We've seen her put food in her mouth and "swallow" on one occasion - which was when Derek made the comment about "them never eating." There's no other cases that I can recall where we have seen her ingest anything. And even then - in this one case it didn't look particularly comfortable or natural. Isn't it entirely possible that it is still lodged in her "throat" for later regurgitation? Given that she talks through a speaker, doesn't need to breath etc?

She also chews a chip in the pilot, and even though we do not see her swallow, it looks very natural and comfortable.
I thought the scene between her and Derek was more like a giant pissing match, so I would not infer anything from it.

Also, she regularly eats in the school cafeteria, which kinda seems odd if she couldn't at least mimic the swallowing and eating part. (And I doubt there is room in her throat for two slices of pizza).

[Drooling Iguana]

2 - John has apparently had her head open, with her co-operation at least once prior to coming back through time.

I think the "this isn't the first time you've done this" line referred to the time he removed Arnold's chip in T2. It wouldn't make sense for her to say that if she was referring to something Future John did, because in that case it would be the first time he'd done it from John's perspective.

As for the main question at hand, they would need at least a few internal organs to keep the skin alive (my guess is that they'd clone a few human organs, engineer them to be smaller than normal since they only have to maintain the skin rather than the entire body, and store them somewhere inside the endoskeleton torso) but there's no reason why ovaries and a uterus would be among them.

[Thanas]

2 - John has apparently had her head open, with her co-operation at least once prior to coming back through time.

I think the "this isn't the first time you've done this" line referred to the time he removed Arnold's chip in T2. It wouldn't make sense for her to say that if she was referring to something Future John did, because in that case it would be the first time he'd done it from John's perspective.

Considering that the procedures were different (he needed to be talked through this one), I doubt that.

As for the main question at hand, they would need at least a few internal organs to keep the skin alive (my guess is that they'd clone a few human organs, engineer them to be smaller than normal since they only have to maintain the skin rather than the entire body, and store them somewhere inside the endoskeleton torso) but there's no reason why ovaries and a uterus would be among them.

Again, why is everyone assuming her skin is human?

And I doubt she has any human organs, considering that her blood is distinctly non-human. How could a human organ survive with no blood?

[Zablorg]

WTF are you talking about, Thanas? It says multiple times throughout the Terminator media that the skin is living.

[Thanas]

WTF are you talking about, Thanas? It says multiple times throughout the Terminator media that the skin is living.

Right, living. Definitely not human, though, and it never says human in that media, iirc. At least not in the movies or the show. You seemed to have me confused for someone who argues that her skin is non-living.

Or could a human skin survive standing this close to a 2500°C fire? (watch 1:32-end) She's not even sweating.

Furthermore, living skin does not necessarily need cloned human organs, which is what Drooling Iguana argued in favor of.

[JCady]

It was my impression that the "infiltrator" T-800 models (up until Sarah Connor Chronicles at least) only had to pass inspection for a few hours at a time, just long enough to hook up with some fighters/refugees, find a bunker complex/hide and get as far in as possible before lighting the place the fuck up and calling in the reinforcements.

My guess is the T-800 "skin jobs" are literally that; the skin will rot off them in a matter of days to weeks, but it doesn't matter because they only have to look human enough to not be shot on sight by Tech-Com. They're more scout/recon units than true infiltrators.

Glau's model, however, is an infiltrator model, possibly based on a variant of the T-X series chassis instead of the 800 series chassis. My guess is that she has some form of artificial skin which looks and feels human, but doesn't require organic nutrition.

[Thanas]

It was my impression that the "infiltrator" T-800 models (up until Sarah Connor Chronicles at least) only had to pass inspection for a few hours at a time, just long enough to hook up with some fighters/refugees, find a bunker complex/hide and get as far in as possible before lighting the place the fuck up and calling in the reinforcements.

My guess is the T-800 "skin jobs" are literally that; the skin will rot off them in a matter of days to weeks, but it doesn't matter because they only have to look human enough to not be shot on sight by Tech-Com. They're more scout/recon units than true infiltrators.

The show directly contradicts you there, though, because we have seen one Terminator being in a long term relationship with the programmer of ARTIE.

Glau's model, however, is an infiltrator model, possibly based on a variant of the T-X series chassis instead of the 800 series chassis. My guess is that she has some form of artificial skin which looks and feels human, but doesn't require organic nutrition.

She does bleed though, so I'd say there is at least some nutrition going on. And I wonder why everyone seems to think T-X immediately after seeing Cameron. Everything about her is fundamentally different, from the HUD to the mimicry, fighting style etc.

[JCady]

It was my impression that the "infiltrator" T-800 models (up until Sarah Connor Chronicles at least) only had to pass inspection for a few hours at a time, just long enough to hook up with some fighters/refugees, find a bunker complex/hide and get as far in as possible before lighting the place the fuck up and calling in the reinforcements.

My guess is the T-800 "skin jobs" are literally that; the skin will rot off them in a matter of days to weeks, but it doesn't matter because they only have to look human enough to not be shot on sight by Tech-Com. They're more scout/recon units than true infiltrators.

The show directly contradicts you there, though, because we have seen one Terminator being in a long term relationship with the programmer of ARTIE.

Which show? If it's Sarah Connor Chronicles, it can easily be rationalized by pointing out that just as Skynet evolved from rubber-skin infiltrators to human-skin ones, it has now evolved more advanced materials.

She does bleed though, so I'd say there is at least some nutrition going on.

As an EMT-B, I can point out she doesn't bleed nearly enough for the wounds she's taking; none of the Termies do. It makes sense that an infiltrator should be able to "prove" itself human by bleeding from a minor injury; it's an easy and logical way to test people.

[Thanas]

The show directly contradicts you there, though, because we have seen one Terminator being in a long term relationship with the programmer of ARTIE.

Which show? If it's Sarah Connor Chronicles, it can easily be rationalized by pointing out that just as Skynet evolved from rubber-skin infiltrators to human-skin ones, it has now evolved more advanced materials.

So you want to rationalize something for which there is no proof in the first place (e.g. the T-800 series being perceived as short term infiltrators and their skin rotting) by disimissing canon evidence (the T-800s are specifically named infiltrators), when in fact there are numerous facts that speak against such a perception of yours (like what sense would it make for Skynet to send back robots with rotting skin in the first place when Skynet had no idea how long it would take them to find their targets)?

That makes even less sense to me.

Besides, first you'd have to prove that the skin used on the T-800 is different from the T-888, which after all, is the same model line.

She does bleed though, so I'd say there is at least some nutrition going on.

As an EMT-B, I can point out she doesn't bleed nearly enough for the wounds she's taking

Well, no shit sherlock. That's because her skin is only centimeters thick at best.

[Resinence]

I just recently started watching SCC, so it's still fresh in my memory (and I have HDTV rips for screens). The skin issue is gone into in a decent amount of detail in episode 3. When cromarte is talking to the scientist for his new skin, the guy mentions that the formula provided uses an artificial oxygenator, that also brings nutrients to the skin (explaining the lack of red blood cells in terminator blood, and no bone marrow needed). I don't think they have a circulatory system or that they even need one, the skin is definitely not human. Though it would still need nutrients, that doesn't mean they need to have a full blown liver and digestive system. Maybe the "artificial oxygenator" is capable of absorbing nutrients through the skin itself?

Apparently it's extremely fast growing/repairing as well "no no no, that's just not possible, that sort of epidermal growth rate is just not sustainable. It's not possible" and cromarte reply's "possible.". It's vat grown, the scientist say's he needs 20 units of blood to do it. And they grow it in a bathtub.


Made in a bathtub

Basically, I don't think expecting it to behave at all like human skin is reasonable considering what we were shown in episode 3.