If Darth Maul hadn't died.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-17 06:36pm

Suppose Maul, after killing Qui-Gon, didn't have a spat of stupid and allowed Obi-Wan to kill him. Say, Obi-Wan fell so far down the hole that neither Maul or Obi-Wan could do anything, so Maul left satisfied with a victory.

How would Palpatine's plans have differed if he still had Maul as an apprentice? Would he still have tapped Dooku to lead the separatists or would that have fallen to Maul? Would Maul perhaps take Grievious's place as leader of the droid armies? Would Anakin still have been the priority that he was? How would Maul have fared against Anakin assuming Palpatine still did want him?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2008-03-17 06:55pm

Maul would likely not have led the Confederates but would used in the same manner as Dooku was against Anakin.

Maul from all the literature is a blunt weapon. Palpatine used him for killing and nothing more. Palpatine was always gunning for Anakin.

Aasharu · Post by **Aasharu** » 2008-03-17 06:59pm

Without Qui-Gon Jinn or Obi-Wan Kenobi to support Anakin's entry into the Jedi Order, would Anakin have even been a factor? If the Jedi hadn't taken him in, wouldn't Palpatine have just scooped him up right then and there?

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-03-17 07:00pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Maul would likely not have led the Confederates but would used in the same manner as Dooku was against Anakin.

Maul from all the literature is a blunt weapon. Palpatine used him for killing and nothing more. Palpatine was always gunning for Anakin.

I was about to ask how Palpatine could be gunning for Anakin before he even met him... But then I realise he's like one of the most powerful precogs in Star Wars...

But Maul = Brute Animal, Wasn't that just Dooku being a xenophobic twat in the EpIII Novel? His idea of what was going on is so far from the truth (treachery being the way of the Sith, after all) as to be next to useless.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2008-03-17 07:47pm

Even if Dooku is wrong, Maul was certainly treated like a weapon to be used and discarded as needed. He certainly didn't have any of the charm or political appeal that Count Dooku had to lead the Confederacy.

ExarKun · Post by **ExarKun** » 2008-03-17 07:55pm

Dooku would have been used and discarded, just like the other separatists. Anakin would have killed Maul, and we'd still get the same outcome

TC Pilot · Post by **TC Pilot** » 2008-03-17 08:54pm

Aasharu wrote:Without Qui-Gon Jinn or Obi-Wan Kenobi to support Anakin's entry into the Jedi Order, would Anakin have even been a factor? If the Jedi hadn't taken him in, wouldn't Palpatine have just scooped him up right then and there?

Obi-Wan is still a factor in this scenario, merely that both he and Maul survive the fight.

I sincerely doubt that Maul would ever be put in any position of leadership or military command in the CIS. Dooku was chosen for his influence, Greivous for his stategic expertise. Although I could see him forming the third party in a triumvirate, specializing in espionage, clandestine operations, and assassinations. Still just a tool to be disposed of at the most convenient and expediant oppurtunity.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2008-03-17 09:43pm

If Palpitine is to stay true to the Sith only working in pairs, he's going to have to do something with him.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-17 09:44pm

Are there any sources that specifically preclude Maul from being more than just a weapon? Palpatine was able to train him for quite a long time. Is it specifically stated that all he taught him were the martial sides of being a Sith? Is it not possible that he was imparting his political savvy onto him as well?

I mean there is no reason for Palpatine to believe, up until he encountered Anakin, that Maul would not be the one to carry on his legacy and the legacy of the Sith is there?

Darth Onasi · Post by **Darth Onasi** » 2008-03-17 09:57pm

I've never seen anything about Palpatine that suggests he ever intended to pass on his legacy; he used and discarded apprentices like toys.
He was never troubled by the loss of Maul, he discarded Dooku when he had Anakin and in turn was going to replace Vader with Luke.

So I doubt Maul was anything other than Palpatine's attack dog, convenient for his rise to the positon of Supreme Chancellor but otherwise not much use.
I think if Maul hadn't died when he did, Palpatine would've disposed of him soon after.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2008-03-18 12:02am

Chris OFarrell wrote:If Palpitine is to stay true to the Sith only working in pairs, he's going to have to do something with him.

Like arrange a duel between Maul and Dooku, the winner remaining or becoming a Sith Lord?

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2008-03-18 05:47am

It would be a more interesting question to ask what would happen to Anakin if Maul is able to kill both Obi-Wan and Qui-gon, because that tosses Anakin's destiny into question. Would Yoda or Mace Windu have stepped in and taken over his training himself?

In Ep 1 it was clear to the Jedi that Anakin had a unique role to play in the near future. Even if they couldn't see to what end Anakin's game would play out, they would still be asking themselves if leaving such a boy to himself would be the wisest option. This question would have troubled them even further the instant they picked up any inkling of Palpatine's interest in Anakin's career.

In the end, I think what happens is that Yoda and/or Mace Windu train Anakin because they fear that if they don't he'll fall into Palpatine's corner more quickly. Palpatine would force Anakin to confront Maul when Anakin clearly isn't ready to face him. Palpatine would give Maul instructions to try and capture or torture Anakin for as long as he could, and just torment Anakin to the point where he has to decide between survival and falling to the dark side.

With Obi-Wan still alive, I think the same scenario as the OTL, at least as far as Anakin's turn is concerned plays out, with maybe Maul playing the role of General Grievous instead.

KlavoHunter · Post by **KlavoHunter** » 2008-03-18 06:59am

If Obi-Wan did not kill Maul, then Maul would be free to go to the Palace, and kill or otherwise neutralize Princess Amidala and her party, free the Viceroy, and in general crash the Naboo's party - though that would still leave the Confederacy with a tactical loss, with the destruction of the Droid Control Ship and the ensuing loss of the ground battle, but with Amidala dead or captured, and the Trade Federation viceroy and other important folks evacuated (Presumably on Maul's stealth ship), things would be VERY different.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2008-03-18 09:29am

Crazedwraith wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Maul would likely not have led the Confederates but would used in the same manner as Dooku was against Anakin.

Maul from all the literature is a blunt weapon. Palpatine used him for killing and nothing more. Palpatine was always gunning for Anakin.
I was about to ask how Palpatine could be gunning for Anakin before he even met him... But then I realise he's like one of the most powerful precogs in Star Wars...

Didn't they hint at either he or his master having created Anakin in the first place, with that Dark-Side-creating-life juju?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2008-03-18 10:27am

Molyneux wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Maul would likely not have led the Confederates but would used in the same manner as Dooku was against Anakin.

Maul from all the literature is a blunt weapon. Palpatine used him for killing and nothing more. Palpatine was always gunning for Anakin.
I was about to ask how Palpatine could be gunning for Anakin before he even met him... But then I realise he's like one of the most powerful precogs in Star Wars...
Didn't they hint at either he or his master having created Anakin in the first place, with that Dark-Side-creating-life juju?

I've heard that wild theory thrown about, along with the theory that Palpatine visited Tatooine and fucked with Shimi's mind and a more.

Oskuro · Post by **Oskuro** » 2008-03-18 12:32pm

If he had lived, I supposed he would have been used to take out bothersome individuals.... You know, instead of hiring Jango Fett.

I don't think it would have been beyond Palpatine to use Dooku as a political tool, even if he wasn't officially a Sith (Grievous wasn't a Sith, not even a Force User, but seemed to be in the loop, at least more than the other separatist leaders).

Anyway, most probably, had he survived, he might have expanded his vocabulary

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-18 01:16pm

LordOskuro wrote:If he had lived, I supposed he would have been used to take out bothersome individuals.... You know, instead of hiring Jango Fett.

Are you saying that Maul would have become the template for the Clone Army?

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-18 01:18pm

KlavoHunter wrote:If Obi-Wan did not kill Maul, then Maul would be free to go to the Palace, and kill or otherwise neutralize Princess Amidala and her party, free the Viceroy, and in general crash the Naboo's party - though that would still leave the Confederacy with a tactical loss, with the destruction of the Droid Control Ship and the ensuing loss of the ground battle, but with Amidala dead or captured, and the Trade Federation viceroy and other important folks evacuated (Presumably on Maul's stealth ship), things would be VERY different.

That's interesting. If Maul did do this, and there is really no reason to believe he wouldn't, then Anakin, would not have Padme as his weak point, as Maul would have killed her. How might have Palpatine been able to manipulate him with his full focus on the Jedi and not split?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-03-18 01:34pm

He'd find her mammy.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-18 02:17pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:He'd find her mammy.

The Sandpeople did that for him... unless of course he orchestrated that as well.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2008-03-18 03:10pm

havokeff wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:He'd find her mammy.
The Sandpeople did that for him... unless of course he orchestrated that as well.

...you know, at first I was going to say that seems a little too much even for Palpatine...but I really wouldn't put it past him. Got a finger in every pie on every planet, that one.

Darth Onasi · Post by **Darth Onasi** » 2008-03-18 06:04pm

I doubt Palpatine had a hand in that.
But I'm sure he knew it would happen..

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-18 06:07pm

Darth Onasi wrote:I doubt Palpatine had a hand in that.
But I'm sure he knew it would happen..

Well if he knew it would happen, why wouldn't he have a hand in it?

Darth Onasi · Post by **Darth Onasi** » 2008-03-18 06:11pm

havokeff wrote:
Darth Onasi wrote:I doubt Palpatine had a hand in that.
But I'm sure he knew it would happen..
Well if he knew it would happen, why wouldn't he have a hand in it?

Because he has the most powerful precognitive abilities in the galaxy?
Given his interest in Anakin, I'm sure he at least foresaw Anakin telling him about his mother's death.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-18 06:18pm

Darth Onasi wrote:
havokeff wrote:
Darth Onasi wrote:I doubt Palpatine had a hand in that.
But I'm sure he knew it would happen..
Well if he knew it would happen, why wouldn't he have a hand in it?
Because he has the most powerful precognitive abilities in the galaxy?
Given his interest in Anakin, I'm sure he at least foresaw Anakin telling him about his mother's death.

"Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future." There is no reason to believe that this is any different for Palpatine. If he saw a possible outcome he wanted or liked, he would most certainly try to make sure THAT possibility came to pass.