The status of vegetarians

[Plekhanov]

This is something I've had stuck in my head for a while.

Should I become a vegetarian?

Now, I love meat, I really do. However I'm not sure i can justify my diet anymore.

1) Morally/Ethically.

Do I have a right to kill other animals for food when it is a) wasteful and b) unneccesary. Simpy put, it is possible to lead a healthy lifestyle while being vegetarian.
Me, a cow and a desert island = steak tartre but in the normal run of things surely I don't need to be killing to feed?
[ This also includes dairy products as most of the calves are killed off to keep the milk flowing]

2) Ecologically.

Taking global climate change as read, how can i justify eating a diet that is so inefficent in both energy and the farm land required to sustain it?
I appreciate sprawling arable farms may not be more friendly to local wildlife then cattle pasture but on a global scale...
[ Welsh Lamb is an exception here as sheep are raised on land unsuitable for crops and the welsh part means I'm minimizing food miles]

So. Am i doomed to a vegetarian life, a rather sheepish life or continue with my black pudding breakfasts? I let you, the informed public decide.

I've been a vegetarian for over a decade and it takes no real effort, however I've always liked cooking and ate a rather healthy diet with very little convenience food & not much meat in it before I went vege. I do know other people less into cooking who've found the transition harder though.

My girlfriend is a vegan & that's much more troublesome both in terms of making sure she gets all the nutrients she needs and also in avoiding dairy & eggs small amounts of which are in a huge number of products.

Personally the way I look at it is that I don't need to eat animals to live as such were I to eat meat it would simply be for pleasure and I don't regard pleasure alone as sufficient reason to cause suffering and death to other animals.

[Broomstick]

Another health benefit to eating low on the food chain - which is what you're doing when leaning vegetarian - is that environmental toxins and pollution are much less concentrated in your diet.

This is, however, somewhat offset by some plants producing toxins to discourage predation. Very few meats are toxic (fugu comes to mind as an exception).

[Lagmonster]

Wait, sorry, what were the obesity levels in your country again? 30% or more?

Yeah, not wasteful or unnecessary food production at all, there.

People aren't fat because food production is too high, they're fat because they eat too much. But our friend up above introduced the idea that meat production is 'unnecessary' under his category of 'ethics', followed by his statement about a healthy diet, which says to me that he means, "unnecessary for a healthy human diet, thus it's morally wrong to kill animals for food".

So I figure, if you're talking to someone who’s malnourished, and whose kids are going to die for want of food, they'll strangle the fucking cow with their bare hands if they have to, humane treatment be damned. And they have every right in such a situation to flip off any smug, pampered sons of bitches who leap up to the moral plate to take swing at the idea that there is some sort of ethical crisis at work in doing so, just because YOU can live happily on nuts and berries.

[Rye]

People aren't fat because food production is too high, they're fat because they eat too much.

Which they can only do if there is too much food to eat.

But our friend up above introduced the idea that meat production is 'unnecessary' under his category of 'ethics', followed by his statement about a healthy diet, which says to me that he means, "unnecessary for a healthy human diet, thus it's morally wrong to kill animals for food".

That's certainly arguable. Perpetuating the suffering of animals with similar experiences of fear and pain as us because we like the taste of them when we can do without, for the most part, is pretty immoral. It's not as bad when they have a better life than in the wild, of course.

So I figure, if you're talking to someone who’s malnourished, and whose kids are going to die for want of food, they'll strangle the fucking cow with their bare hands if they have to, humane treatment be damned.

What the fuck are you talking about? Aside from PETA, nobody's going to go to a starving child and say "don't kill to survive," but there's nothing wrong with saying the modern intake of meat in the "eating yourself to death" hemisphere is absurd and immoral. In fact, in the OP, I believe he said if all he had to eat to survive was cow, he would do it. "Me, a cow and a desert island = steak tartre but in the normal run of things surely I don't need to be killing to feed? "

And they have every right in such a situation to flip off any smug, pampered sons of bitches who leap up to the moral plate to take swing at the idea that there is some sort of ethical crisis at work in doing so, just because YOU can live happily on nuts and berries.

If you can "live happily on berries and nuts" (I personally opt for a reduced meat diet, but whatever), why should you continue to eat obscene and unnatural amounts of meat and contribute to the totally unjustified suffering of animals in doing so? Some starving kid in Africa is not going to feel the benefit of another fat westerner eating another cow that they could've gone without.

[Plekhanov]

Wait, sorry, what were the obesity levels in your country again? 30% or more?

Yeah, not wasteful or unnecessary food production at all, there.

People aren't fat because food production is too high, they're fat because they eat too much. But our friend up above introduced the idea that meat production is 'unnecessary' under his category of 'ethics', followed by his statement about a healthy diet, which says to me that he means, "unnecessary for a healthy human diet, thus it's morally wrong to kill animals for food".

So I figure, if you're talking to someone who’s malnourished, and whose kids are going to die for want of food, they'll strangle the fucking cow with their bare hands if they have to, humane treatment be damned. And they have every right in such a situation to flip off any smug, pampered sons of bitches who leap up to the moral plate to take swing at the idea that there is some sort of ethical crisis at work in doing so, just because YOU can live happily on nuts and berries.

Please note I specifically said 'I don't need to eat animals to live' that obviously isn't blanket claim that nobody in any circumstances can ever justify eating meat simply that there's no need for me to do so in my current circumstances. Consequently your attempt to critique my position is completely redundant.

Anyway how about you deal with the fact that meat production is so inefficient and consequently expensive that it's really only eaten in quantity by the affluent. As such all your outrage about veges supposedly attempting to denying food to the starving is absurd as people starve when they run out of staples like rice & wheat not beef.

[FSTargetDrone]

Broomstick said veganism is questionable in the "healthy" department, and I happen to agree with her, leaning more towards the "not healthy" than healthy side of that argument.

If one is careful, one can life quite healthfully with a vegan diet. I've been vegan since 1997, have regular physicals and my doctor knows my diet. My bloodwork, other tests, etc. always come back good and I weight the same since I did in high school, roughly 170-175 pounds.

That said, there's been a few times when I've eaten meat in the past 11 years, but those incidents were few enough to count on one hand. More often than not, I accidentally eat animal products because I find out afterwards that there was milk or butter in something that I wasn't are of beforehand.

As an aside, when that happens, I shrug and move on. I am not one of these people who freaks if animal products pass my lips. I avoid it as much as possible for health and ethical reasons. I know for certain I am not really 100% vegan, but the idea is to be vegan as much as possible. My girlfriend is vegan too and that makes things a lot easier.

Which reminds me, we need to make a new batch of hoummous...

Better than buying it. You know, of course, your name gets put on a watchlist when you buy it.

[CaptJodan]

If one is careful, one can life quite healthfully with a vegan diet. I've been vegan since 1997, have regular physicals and my doctor knows my diet. My bloodwork, other tests, etc. always come back good and I weight the same since I did in high school, roughly 170-175 pounds.

Eh, I'm only willing to go so far. I imagine if I wasn't raised vegetarian, I wouldn't be one now. I don't really have any moral or ethical reasons for vegetarianism (I used to, but they got dumped with religion; it didn't have anything to do with the love of cows), but I prefer it because I'm able to maintain a healthy weight a lot easier (140-never exceed 150), and it's nice not having to worry about any of the meat scares that come up from time to time.

[Broomstick]

That said, there's been a few times when I've eaten meat in the past 11 years, but those incidents were few enough to count on one hand.

That handful of occasions, however, are enough to prevent a debilitating deficiency of the one nutrient that is pretty much unobtainable without animal-source foods. Your body needs so little of it, and stores it well enough, that ingestion only once every few years can be sufficient to prevent permanent damage.

[Plekhanov]

That said, there's been a few times when I've eaten meat in the past 11 years, but those incidents were few enough to count on one hand.

That handful of occasions, however, are enough to prevent a debilitating deficiency of the one nutrient that is pretty much unobtainable without animal-source foods. Your body needs so little of it, and stores it well enough, that ingestion only once every few years can be sufficient to prevent permanent damage.

Loads of products are fortified with B12 nowadays (particularly things like soy milk which vegans tend to consume) so chances are he'd have been ok even without the occasional mistaken mouthful of animal products.

[Broomstick]

As far as I know, B12 is still exclusively derived from animal products of one sort or another, and the proposed alternatives are either of questionable utility to the body or have wildly inconsistent (even absent) quantities of B12. It is possible that things have changed when I wasn't looking, however, for some vegans a B12 supplement that ultimately has an animal origin would still be off limits. A clear example of taking things too far, in my opinion, and such idiocy will, in the end be self-eliminating.

I don't think we have anyone that extreme on this forum, however.

[Plekhanov]

As far as I know, B12 is still exclusively derived from animal products of one sort or another, and the proposed alternatives are either of questionable utility to the body or have wildly inconsistent (even absent) quantities of B12. It is possible that things have changed when I wasn't looking, however, for some vegans a B12 supplement that ultimately has an animal origin would still be off limits. A clear example of taking things too far, in my opinion, and such idiocy will, in the end be self-eliminating.

I don't think we have anyone that extreme on this forum, however.

iirc b12 is actually produced by bacteria which is where animals get it from (we get it 2nd hand) so I'd expect they'd get the B12 they use in fortified foods from culturing bacteria.

[Broomstick]

Back when I was researching the matter (and granted, that WAS over a decade ago) no one was culturing bacteria for the purpose. Some folks were claiming to have fortified yeast of some sort, but as I said, it was of questionable use and potency.

So..... has someone started growing gut bacteria for the purpose? Or not? Anyone know? Because if they haven't, it's still animal-origin.

[CaptJodan]

Would this count? It's a quick google-fu, so I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5545538-fulltext.html

There's also this...

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/30/3/477.pdf

[Broomstick]

The patent was 1996 -- that would have been shortly after I last researched this, in the early 1990's, so yeah, maybe.

[madd0ct0r]

I'm sure i heard Guinness has B12 in it...

[madd0ct0r]

they say Guinness is good for you but would it be possible to live on the black stuff alone?

It’s true that a pint of Guinness or other stout contains a whole variety of nutrients including 2g protein, 7.5g carbohydrate, 1mg iron and all the B vitamins except B12. However, it also contains alcohol, and lots of it (well, 16.5g, to be precise), as well as around 140 calories.

Since Guinness does not contain vitamin C, B12 or calcium, you would actually need to drink 47 pints of stout along with 2 glasses of milk and a glass of orange juice to get all the nutrients you need on a daily basis.

http://www.tescodiets.com/b2b/msndiet/a ... ode=410600

drat, never mind.

[Junghalli]

So I figure, if you're talking to someone who’s malnourished, and whose kids are going to die for want of food, they'll strangle the fucking cow with their bare hands if they have to, humane treatment be damned.

That is a bit different though. They actually need the food. Most of the meat eaten in the relatively affluent West is consumed more for pleasure than because we actually need it; we could survive OK without it.

I'm not a vegetarian myself but I think one could make an argument that killing something that can feel pain is wrong if you don't actually need to.

[FSTargetDrone]

That said, there's been a few times when I've eaten meat in the past 11 years, but those incidents were few enough to count on one hand.

That handful of occasions, however, are enough to prevent a debilitating deficiency of the one nutrient that is pretty much unobtainable without animal-source foods. Your body needs so little of it, and stores it well enough, that ingestion only once every few years can be sufficient to prevent permanent damage.

Those times I had meat, since I went vegan, were not necessarily done by first choice. After going so long after not eating meat, I most recently had a bite of a burger in 2002 when I was on a trip to Virginia Beach. I hadn't eaten much during the 4 or 5 days I was there, mostly because I couldn't find anything suitable, so in desperation I bought a burger somewhere. I took a bite and then dumped the rest, I found it so disgusting. So I stuck with the heavily-salted fries (which weren't much better!).

Anyway, from the McKinley Health Center (a non-vegetarian-oriented site, though some of the references at the end are veg-affiliated/oriented) at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign:

Vitamin B12: What Vegetarians Need to Know

WHAT IS VITAMIN B12?
Vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin, is made by bacteria. Animals eat food containing these bacteria, and then the animals become sources of vitamin B12.

WHY DO YOU NEED VITAMIN B12?

* To form and maintain healthy red blood cells
* To form and maintain healthy nerve cells
* To make DNA, the genetic material in cells

WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DON’T GET ENOUGH VITAMIN B12?

* Pernicious Anemia – a type of anemia characterized by large red blood cells. Symptoms include fatigue, breathlessness, listlessness, and poor resistance to infection.
* Nerve damage. Symptoms may include numbness and tingling in the hands and feet.
* In infants: delayed growth and development, movement disorders, anemia
* Other problems: constipation, loss of appetite, weight loss, depression, confusion, difficulty keeping balance, dementia, poor memory

Most deficiencies can occur because of a problem absorbing B12 in the intestine, though strict vegans (who consume no animal products) can also develop deficiencies over an extended period of time. Since the body stores some B12, it can take years for vegans to develop a deficiency.

HOW MUCH VITAMIN B12 DO YOU NEED?
Adults need to consume 2.4 micrograms (µg) of B12 per day. Pregnant women should get 2.6 µg, and lactating women should consume 2.8 µg. Consuming high amounts of B12 has not been shown to be harmful.

WHAT FOODS ARE GOOD SOURCES OF VITAMIN B12?
Animal products, especially fish and seafood, are good sources of B12. Foods such as milk, yogurt, and eggs can provide B12 for lacto-ovo vegetarians. Vegans can get B12 from fortified foods, nutritional yeast, and dietary supplements. Fortified foods are made with the B12-producing bacteria, not animal products.

It was once thought that tempeh, miso, and sea vegetables could provide B12. However, these foods do not contain the active forms of the vitamin. Instead, they contain inactive forms, which may actually interfere with B12 absorption and metabolism.

When looking at Nutrition Facts labels, you will see vitamin B12 expressed as a percent of Daily Value. Daily Values are helpful in deciding whether the food is a good source of the vitamin. Foods with 20% or more of the Daily Value for B12 are considered very good sources. Foods that provide 5% or less of the Daily Value are considered low sources.

Adults should include at least three good sources of vitamin B12 each day. It is best to include a variety of different fortified foods in your diet, rather than solely relying on one source. Examples of good B12 sources include:

* ½ cup cow’s milk
* ¾ cup yogurt
* 1 large egg
* 1 cup fortified soymilk (such as Silk™, 8th Continent™)
* 1 oz. fortified breakfast cereal (such as Total™, Nature’s Path Optimum Power™, Kashi, Honey Frosted Oats™, Special K™, Cheerios™)
* 1½ oz. fortified meat analog (such as Yves Meatless Barbeque “Beef” Skewers™, Worthington canned Vegeburger™, Worthington frozen Stakelets™)
* Nutritional yeast (such as Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula™)

HOW SHOULD I SELECT A SUPPLEMENT?
Nutritional yeasts and B12 pills are considered dietary supplements and are not regulated as strictly as food and drug products. Companies that make these supplements can change their formula at any time, and the product may or may not be a good source of B12. Use caution when selecting a supplement. Read labels carefully and only purchase reputable brands. Look for these seals on labels:

Image of U.S. Pharmacopeia and ConsumerLab.com Web sites

These seals indicate that the product has passed voluntary testing for identity, strength, purity, and bioavailability. In other words, the product has been found to meet recognized quality standards (identity), contain the amount of ingredients it claims on the label (strength), is not contaminated (purity), and can be properly utilized by the body (bioavailability).

If you take large quantities of vitamin B12 at one time, you will absorb less of it. Therefore, it is recommended to take either small quantities (5-10 µg) daily or 2000 µg once per week. Also, vitamin B12 is sensitive to light, so be sure to store supplements and nutritional yeast in cool, dark areas.

References
Dietary Supplement Fact Sheet. “Vitamin B12” Office of Dietary Supplements, NIH Clinical Center.
Mangels, Reed, Ph.D., R.D. “Vitamin B12 in the Vegan Diet.” The Vegetarian Resource Group Web site, search for Vitamin B12
Messina et al. (2003) “A New Food Guide for North American Vegetarians.” Canadian Journal of Dietetics Practice and Research, 64(2), 82-86.
“Vitamin B12” Information Sheet. The Vegetarian Society Web site, search for Vitamin B12
Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian Diets. (2003). Journal of the American Dietetic Association, 103(6), 748-765.
Norris, Jack R.D. “Vitamin B12: are you getting it?” Vegan Health Organization Web site, search for Vitamin B12 (This is a very helpful Web site with a lot of reliable information).

I bolded the items above that my girlfriend and I regularly use here. We also eat Cheerios and other fortified foods.

Anyway, B12 is one of the biggest issues with this diet, as you point out. It can be managed, but must be done carefully.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I'm not a "true" veggie, but i try, as DW suggested, and have succeded in decreasing my meat intake vastly over what most Americans enjoy. For me, it's really an ethical thing. I see no reason why an animal should die for me when they don't have to.

If i was in the desrt and i saw a cow, and i needed food, i'd kill and eat it. Like any animal would. That's survival, that's logic, the cow would do the same if she could.

But to be frank i live within walking distance of a KMart. I can walk less than thirty minutes and have all the (mostly non-meat) food i want, and no one and nothing has to die for it. There is no reason why i should do anything BUT just go to the KMart, there is no reason for me to not to also.

This is also why i'm against sport hunting, FYI.


P.S. i'm trying to go "all" veggie, but my willpower is less than stellar and i won't lie, i like a cheeseburger every now and again, cause lets be blunt--i'm a fucking pig.

[Broomstick]

That said, there's been a few times when I've eaten meat in the past 11 years, but those incidents were few enough to count on one hand.

That handful of occasions, however, are enough to prevent a debilitating deficiency of the one nutrient that is pretty much unobtainable without animal-source foods. Your body needs so little of it, and stores it well enough, that ingestion only once every few years can be sufficient to prevent permanent damage.

Those times I had meat, since I went vegan, were not necessarily done by first choice.

I understand that. I don't choose to eat bugs, either, but once in awhile on a picnic it happens. And sometimes it's a choice between "eat this" or "go hungry" for a bit.

Nice cite, by the way:

Anyway, from the McKinley Health Center (a non-vegetarian-oriented site, though some of the references at the end are veg-affiliated/oriented) at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign:

Vitamin B12: What Vegetarians Need to Know... snip

Back when I was flirting with vegetarianism (a very brief flirt - my food allergies put a lot of plant foods off limits for me) this was the issue that raised my eyebrows:

It was once thought that tempeh, miso, and sea vegetables could provide B12. However, these foods do not contain the active forms of the vitamin. Instead, they contain inactive forms, which may actually interfere with B12 absorption and metabolism.

Back then, you had a group of vegans saying all we needed to do was eat miso, tempeh, and sea vegetables and we'd get all the B12 we'd ever need. At the time, it was becoming apparent that was not the case. Unfortunately, nerve damage from lack of B12 is permanent. Thank goodness it's difficult to get to that state.

(By the way - I use sea vegetables on a regular basis. Miso is an issue due to food allergies again, as anything with barley makes me extremely ill and I found out the hard way that barley-containing miso exists)

I bolded the items above that my girlfriend and I regularly use here. We also eat Cheerios and other fortified foods.

Anyway, B12 is one of the biggest issues with this diet, as you point out. It can be managed, but must be done carefully.

And I am actually relieved that there, apparently, many more options available to the vegan than when I was college-age. Also happy you and your girlfriend know enough to consume sufficient quantities of the vitamin.

[FSTargetDrone]

Nice cite, by the way:

Thanks. I was trying to find something that wasn't from a veg-oriented site. It was harder than I thought it would be.

Back then, you had a group of vegans saying all we needed to do was eat miso, tempeh, and sea vegetables and we'd get all the B12 we'd ever need. At the time, it was becoming apparent that was not the case. Unfortunately, nerve damage from lack of B12 is permanent. Thank goodness it's difficult to get to that state.

Yeah. A big problem is when aspiring vegans just sort of waddle in and do it without any research. As you said earlier, it's best not to go into it cold turkey (which is basically how I did it, though I wouldn't do so again), but I eventually did more homework on it.

(By the way - I use sea vegetables on a regular basis. Miso is an issue due to food allergies again, as anything with barley makes me extremely ill and I found out the hard way that barley-containing miso exists)

Happily we don't have any food allergies. Just bad eyes, the both of us.

And I am actually relieved that there, apparently, many more options available to the vegan than when I was college-age. Also happy you and your girlfriend know enough to consume sufficient quantities of the vitamin.

Not only that, but the choices in vegetarian/ vegan foods in general have really improved, even over the last 5 years or so. There's such a variety of pre-prepared suitable foods. She works 7 days a week at different hours, so even though we both enjoy cooking together, it isn't always convenient. So it's nice to have a vast array of good (and good-tasting) vegan items. Not that we live on frozen foods, but with our schedules it's usually a challenge to make something from scratch every night. Anyway, that's getting a bit off topic.

[Broomstick]

Actually, I don't think it's off topic at all. I think it's a really good thing that choices in convenience foods has moved beyond turkey-gravy-peas and pasta drowned in neon-bright red sauce of questionable planetary origin.

It's also a big change that many restaurants feature vegetarian entrees, to the point that local family diners in my area - an area where traditionally if it's not dead cow it's deep fried, including Twinkies - will state that "this is vegetarian". And it's more than just today's vegetables heaped on a plate. It's still harder to eat out vegetarian, and there's quite a bit on store shelves that is not acceptable to vegans, but it's much better than it used to be.

It's also getting more acceptable for the omnivores to eat vegetarian entrees - as it should be. I remember when professing a like for something non-meat as a meal would open you up to teasing. Now I run into people who, 20 years ago, disdained "rabbit food" ordering food that doesn't have animal flesh in it.

I'm a strong advocate for a varied diet and varied dietary choices, with a strong emphasis on healthy eating. We are fortunate to live in a time when one has so many choices that entire categories - meat, dairy, whatever - can be dropped and without jeopardizing health.

[CaptJodan]

These days, depending on where you live, places can be pretty accommodating for minor modifications. I'm not exactly holding this up as a bastion of greatness, but I still occasionally go to places like Taco Bell, and can still get most any of the major meals (nacho supreme, pizza, whatever) sans meat, beans instead. Every once and a while they'll wonder if you're from Mars, but I don't let that bother me.

Unfortunately, where you live really does have something to do with it. I had a professor in undergrad who was a vegetarian who was passing through the states. I can't remember which state it was, but it was a (surprise) southern state. She stopped at a pizza restaurant and ordered a cheese pizza. Standard, yeah? The people there actually kept asking why she didn't want anything else on the pizza, till she finally replied that she didn't eat meat. They then asked "What's wrong with you?". That was about 5 years ago.

By and large, things are better, though. Even some of your more "they practically serve only meat" type restaurants (Like Longhorn, Chilies, Dennys, IHOP (I think), Tuesdays, Fridays, etc.) serve a veggie burger of some kind (some are definitely better than others, but props for trying). That's an improvement over the so called "veggie platter" that some places have, as if all I truly eat is just vegetables, and nothing else.

And of course, there's always going ethic. My mom introduced me to Indian cooking pretty early, and I've added Greek, "Middle Eastern", Thai, Mexican and Italian to the list, all of which generally carry SOMETHING, or sometimes even ::gasp:: a choice of things for a vegetarian to choose from. In fact, if given a choice, I generally pick anything but American.

It could be much worse.

[FSTargetDrone]

There's certainly no lack of choice for us, when it comes to food.

We're fortunate that there are a number of vegetarian/vegan restaurants. Most are in the city, but there are 3 or 4 good ones out here in the 'burbs. We also eat with an informal vegan dinner group that has outings once a month or so to a different restaurant (usually in the city).

We have sliced vegan "cheese" that melts just like real cheese, and actually tastes pretty good too. Some meat/dairy analogues are better than others, of course. The soy "milk" we get is quite good. I've had stuff in the past that is nothing to write home about in the taste department, but those days seem past now. There's even a particular brand of vegan frozen pan pizza I like a lot.

We even get vegan ice cream and it's surprisingly close to real ice cream. In fact, some of it is so close to the taste of dairy, that my father (who is no vegetarian) swipes the "ice cream" sandwiches from our freezer when my parents visit, he enjoys it that much. He also eat vegan burgers that my mother buys. Mostly to help with cholesterol, but he says he would eat them regardless. He still eats red meat on occasion, but rather infrequently.

About the toughest substitute (in terms of taste) would have to be hot dogs, believe it or now. The vegan burgers we get are very good, but there's something about the hot dogs which just aren't quite right. But we've gotten used to certain brands and they are quite satisfactory.

I even get vegan "cold cuts" which are quite tasty. I usually get that stuff only in the warmer months and can make quite a satisfying hoagie/sub sandwich with it. There are some excellent vegan bakeries in the area and the sweets they make are incredible.

[Jaepheth]

Haven't you ever hear of the food chain:



Seriously though, I could never voluntarily become a vegetarian. I often get a sense of these predatory instincts, and since I really can't hunt animals and eat them, just eating meat is the next best thing. It's not just fulfilling hunger, it's satiating those instincts.