Starcraft: Why won't the Protoss and Humans ally more often?

[Lord of the Abyss]

This is rather off topic but as good a place as any to ask (and yes I'm 10 years behind the times), but why the hell did the UED have the exact same shit as the Confederacy (other than game mechanics)?

I don't have the game with me at the moment to read the manual, but as I recall, a great many of the exiled "criminals" in question were criminals because of their interest in leading edge technology, which caused destabilization. So they exiled many of the people who would have designed new units/technology, and clamped down on anyone left behind.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The people exiled weren't just criminals, but anyone deemed "undesirable", from political protesters to people with physical disabilities.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Much of it also has to do with the fact that the Protoss consider themselves the heirs of the role they once venerated the Xel'naga with; that of an elder race of stewards who looks over the lesser species they encounter, which is a cornerstone of Protoss philosophy called "Dae'Uhl". It would definitely reflect poorly on their ability to keep this duty upheld if they had to join ranks with one of their charges, namely the Terrans, in order to defeat any threat.

[Darksider]

The people exiled weren't just criminals, but anyone deemed "undesirable", from political protesters to people with physical disabilities.

Is that why they're all rednecks?



On a more serious note, the various factions did attempt to join up at the end of brood war to stomp kerrigan flat, but she managed to win via act of plot. After that, they all went their separate ways due to various ideological differences

[NeoGoomba]

But you also need to keep one other thing in mind; they've essentially stolen a lot of the materials and and even troops (remember that neural resocialization brainwashing they can do?) that they are using against Mengsk and later Kerrigan's coalition. Remember the Dylarian Shipyards missions, where they stole an entire fleet of battlecruisers?

So then could it be a fair thing to call the UED mission into Terran space a somewhat covert espionage mission to monitor the Terrans and bring back tech, but with the Zerg incursion the small UED force went pro-active? Or did the UED bust into the sector, announce themselves for all to see, and then get creamed by Arth---er Kerrigan? I honestly can't remember anything other than the UED admiral killing himself at the end, so I could be way off base.

[DarthShady]

So then could it be a fair thing to call the UED mission into Terran space a somewhat covert espionage mission to monitor the Terrans and bring back tech, but with the Zerg incursion the small UED force went pro-active? Or did the UED bust into the sector, announce themselves for all to see, and then get creamed by Arth---er Kerrigan? I honestly can't remember anything other than the UED admiral killing himself at the end, so I could be way off base.

As far as i remember the UED came with a large fleet and the intent to conquer the Terans in the Kophrulu Sector.They changed their plans after discovering the Zerg. They considered the Zerg a threat and wanted to destroy them. The only reason they failed was Duran who convinced the Admiral that they should control the Zerg.

[Ford Prefect]

The people exiled weren't just criminals, but anyone deemed "undesirable", from political protesters to people with physical disabilities.

Or physical enhancements, due to the UPL's genetic purity doctrine which killed millions (the exact number is not given, but it is said to have eclipsed Hitler by far). It was these genetically enhanced humans which eventually went on to develop into psionics, as noted by the controlling computers of the colony ships.

[Guardsman Bass]

So then could it be a fair thing to call the UED mission into Terran space a somewhat covert espionage mission to monitor the Terrans and bring back tech, but with the Zerg incursion the small UED force went pro-active? Or did the UED bust into the sector, announce themselves for all to see, and then get creamed by Arth---er Kerrigan? I honestly can't remember anything other than the UED admiral killing himself at the end, so I could be way off base.

As far as i remember the UED came with a large fleet and the intent to conquer the Terans in the Kophrulu Sector.They changed their plans after discovering the Zerg. They considered the Zerg a threat and wanted to destroy them. The only reason they failed was Duran who convinced the Admiral that they should control the Zerg.

What actually happened, according to the little guidebooklet, was that the UED had apparently followed and covertly observed the Koprulu Colonies for almost their entire existence. They actually didn't intervene until the Zerg appeared, at which point they became concerned about a potential threat to the home territory (the booklet actually mentions the "expendable Koprulu Colonies).

Apparently, their main mission from the beginning was to find a way to control the zerg; you see this in the first cinematic, where Stukov and DuGalle are talking about it, and DuGalle mentions "dissecting a zerg in the laboratory is one thing, but controlling them is another."

Of course, they decided to conquer the Koprulu Colonies at the same time, and Mengsk was an obstacle to that end. I'd still say they were pretty sneaky, though; they managed to surprise Mengsk's main general at the Dylarian Shipyards.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Apparently, their main mission from the beginning was to find a way to control the zerg; you see this in the first cinematic, where Stukov and DuGalle are talking about it, and DuGalle mentions "dissecting a zerg in the laboratory is one thing, but controlling them is another."

Of course, they decided to conquer the Koprulu Colonies at the same time, and Mengsk was an obstacle to that end. I'd still say they were pretty sneaky, though; they managed to surprise Mengsk's main general at the Dylarian Shipyards.

Actually Stukov claimed to have seen all the videos of encounters with the Zerg, DuGalle tells him he's seen nothing unless he's actually personally witnessed them in action. There's no real mention of 'controlling' the Zerg, though it's implied that the UED is willing to do whatever it takes when DuGalle asks Stukov if he's prepared to go 'all the way'.

As for the OP: I think they never ally because they consistently underestimate the true power of the Zerg. In the first game first the Confederation and then Mengsk and his Dominion see the Zerg as little more than highly dangerous, but otherwise unintelligent pests to be used for their own ends. The Protoss Conclave knew there is a greater intelligence behind them, but also refuse to consider them a truly grave threat, and consider dissent from within their own ranks (Tassadar meeting with the Dark Templar) to be a far greater threat.

At the end of the first game, Mengsk is still securing his power. Most of the Zerg in the Koprulu sector had gone to invade Aiur, and the few that remained were mostly concentrated around Char and the Psi-Disrupter on Tarsonis. Raynor's Raiders and Tassadar's forces had entered an alliance that lasted long enough to defeat the Overmind, and then things fell apart again.

The Protoss, from both the manuals and information given in game, mostly consider the Terrans to be little more than an infant race with no real power. In the original game, Aldaris openly mocks Tassadar for associating with Terrans and in Brood Wars, Artanis appears shocked that Zeratul considers the UED fleet a credible threat. The Terrans, meanwhile, have had no meaningful contact with the Protoss that wasn't outwardly hostile (planet glassing, etc.)

Remember, in-game, you're dealing mostly with the factions that are the exceptions to the rules. Raynor's Raiders, Tassadar's expeditionary fleet, etc. have had far more experience and contact with each other and the Zerg than the bulk of both the Terrans and the Protoss. Until Kerrigan abducted him, there's no evidence that Mengsk even knew there was a directing intelligence behind the Zerg and still considered them pests. The UED had monitored the events in the Koprulu sector, but there's no evidence they knew about the Overmind and the true extent of the Protoss' territory until well after they arrived.

And remember, once Kerrigan announced herself and finally managed to take full control of the Zerg swarms, everyone else pretty much joined forces to take her out. She basically wasted them all through act-of-plot, and generally 'amazing alliances' don't tend to last when all participants get soundly thrashed in their very first battle.

According to information given out for the time-period between Brood Wars and Starcraft 2, after the battle over Char and Kerrigan vaporizing the remnants of the UED fleet, she withdrew all her forces and basically left everyone else alone for a while. Without a common enemy forcing the various factions to stay together, it's not too unreasonable for them to fall apart because of ideological/religious differences.

[Napoleon the Clown]

The upper echelons of both groups are arrogant motherfuckers is a big part of why the two groups don't ever get along very well. There's plenty of Protoss that can get along with humans just fine (Tassadar, Fenix, Zeratul, Artanis, etc.) And there's humans that can get along with the Protoss, Raynor being a very outstanding example.

If you'll remember, Aldaris is extremely condescending of Raynor when they first encounter each other.


So it really boils down to the Protoss being elitist assholes and the humans having a (very understandable) distrust of a species that has committed genocide without any apparent provocation.

Though, as Damien mentioned, the Terran and Protoss did unite together at one point, but not against the Zerg. Kerrigan manipulated both groups. She dangled power in front of Mengsk and used the combined danger of the UED itself and its attempts at controlling the Zerg to convince the Protoss (or at least a band of Protoss) that the UED must be stopped. All the while massing power behind herself. Once the UED was netralized, she had a very large force at her disposal, essentially all of the Zerg. The Terrans and Protoss, at that point, were both rather fractured in and of themselves, so an interspecies wide alliance was rather unlikely, even in the face of the Zerg. That Kerrigan went back to Char and left everybody alone, despite having an army she could use to crush basically everyone with.


Or, the very simplistic reason: Because the game woud be a lot shorter without it.

[Guardsman Bass]

Apparently, their main mission from the beginning was to find a way to control the zerg; you see this in the first cinematic, where Stukov and DuGalle are talking about it, and DuGalle mentions "dissecting a zerg in the laboratory is one thing, but controlling them is another."

Of course, they decided to conquer the Koprulu Colonies at the same time, and Mengsk was an obstacle to that end. I'd still say they were pretty sneaky, though; they managed to surprise Mengsk's main general at the Dylarian Shipyards.

Actually Stukov claimed to have seen all the videos of encounters with the Zerg, DuGalle tells him he's seen nothing unless he's actually personally witnessed them in action. There's no real mention of 'controlling' the Zerg, though it's implied that the UED is willing to do whatever it takes when DuGalle asks Stukov if he's prepared to go 'all the way'.

I just watched the video again. Here is essentially the transcript:

Stukov: I know all about the Zerg, admiral. We've all seen the tapes a hundred -

DuGalle: You've seen nothing! Dissecting a dead zerg in the laboratory is one thing - unleashing them on men is another! You must go into this with both eyes open.

DuGalle: Are you prepared to go all the way with this, Alexei?

I'm pretty sure that's a hint that they've come into the sector with a mission to subdue and possibly gain control of the Zerg.

[Guardsman Bass]

Remember, in-game, you're dealing mostly with the factions that are the exceptions to the rules. Raynor's Raiders, Tassadar's expeditionary fleet, etc. have had far more experience and contact with each other and the Zerg than the bulk of both the Terrans and the Protoss. Until Kerrigan abducted him, there's no evidence that Mengsk even knew there was a directing intelligence behind the Zerg and still considered them pests. The UED had monitored the events in the Koprulu sector, but there's no evidence they knew about the Overmind and the true extent of the Protoss' territory until well after they arrived.

I think Mengsk actually floated an idea in the briefing before Mission 7 in Starcraft Original that the Confederates were breeding them as weapons. We don't know whether he actually believed that or not (in Mission 4, you see zerg being held by the Confederacy in the Base on Mar Sara), but it is indicative of their priorities.

One thing we need to add as well about Kerrigan's rise; she basically thrashed her allies in the campaign against the UED into submission and killed their commanders (Mengsk lost a huge chunk of guys and his main general, while Fenix died along with a lot of his forces). It apparently took Mengsk a while to actually pull his new fleet together to attack her on Char's space platform.

If anything, I think that is one of Kerrigan's premier abilities. She is good at manipulating people - she managed to convince Mengsk that she wouldn't backstab him after wiping out the UED's primary base on Korhal, and convinced Fenix and Raynor that the UED was actually a bigger threat than an autonomous Zerg Horde.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

One thing we need to add as well about Kerrigan's rise; she basically thrashed her allies in the campaign against the UED into submission and killed their commanders (Mengsk lost a huge chunk of guys and his main general, while Fenix died along with a lot of his forces). It apparently took Mengsk a while to actually pull his new fleet together to attack her on Char's space platform.

IIRC, he said he had made a lot of concessions and deals to get his fleet put together, I'm guessing he went to the Umojan Protectorate and the Kel-Morian Combine for aide. Neither seemed to be very involved in the inter-species conflict in the game storyline. Kerrigan raided a Kel-Morian resource facility in Brood Wars, but that's pretty much it, and the pre-game storyline noted that both the Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan were autonomous entities, not in direct conflict with the Confederation.

Either way, it lends a little evidence to the theory that a goodly chunk of Terrans simply didn't know that much about either the Zerg or the Protoss and probably didn't consider them that great of a threat.

If anything, I think that is one of Kerrigan's premier abilities. She is good at manipulating people - she managed to convince Mengsk that she wouldn't backstab him after wiping out the UED's primary base on Korhal, and convinced Fenix and Raynor that the UED was actually a bigger threat than an autonomous Zerg Horde.

Far more than that, she managed to gain a temporary alliance with the xenophobic Protoss and apparently managed to meet the Matriarch alone for long enough to psionically dominate her (I'm assuming that's what happened, at least. It's implied, but never explicitly stated in game)

Which reminds me of something else: In Brood Wars, the Dark Templar that meet up with Zeratul and Aldaris' forces on Shakuras don't even know what the Zerg were, simply calling them 'unfriendly visitors', which is more evidence that the vast majority of the Dark Templar had no real knowledge of the Zerg either.

[Guardsman Bass]

One thing we need to add as well about Kerrigan's rise; she basically thrashed her allies in the campaign against the UED into submission and killed their commanders (Mengsk lost a huge chunk of guys and his main general, while Fenix died along with a lot of his forces). It apparently took Mengsk a while to actually pull his new fleet together to attack her on Char's space platform.

IIRC, he said he had made a lot of concessions and deals to get his fleet put together, I'm guessing he went to the Umojan Protectorate and the Kel-Morian Combine for aide. Neither seemed to be very involved in the inter-species conflict in the game storyline. Kerrigan raided a Kel-Morian resource facility in Brood Wars, but that's pretty much it, and the pre-game storyline noted that both the Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan were autonomous entities, not in direct conflict with the Confederation.

That's true. There is essentially no mention of the Umojan Protectorate during the whole set of affairs, and the Kel-Morian Combine only comes up in Brood War as part of a resource raid by Kerrigan. There is one hint of what might have happened to them: the Brood War guidebooklet mentions that Mengsk's Terran Dominion "unified all the worlds of the Koprulu Sector for the first time", so it's possible that he officially annexed both, with the Kel-Morians ditching him for their autonomy once it became clear that he was on the losing end of the UED offensive.

Either way, it lends a little evidence to the theory that a goodly chunk of Terrans simply didn't know that much about either the Zerg or the Protoss and probably didn't consider them that great of a threat.

If anything, I think that is one of Kerrigan's premier abilities. She is good at manipulating people - she managed to convince Mengsk that she wouldn't backstab him after wiping out the UED's primary base on Korhal, and convinced Fenix and Raynor that the UED was actually a bigger threat than an autonomous Zerg Horde.

Far more than that, she managed to gain a temporary alliance with the xenophobic Protoss and apparently managed to meet the Matriarch alone for long enough to psionically dominate her (I'm assuming that's what happened, at least. It's implied, but never explicitly stated in game)

That's another mystery that raises some other questions. The events in Brood War essentially happen a few days after the Fall of the Overmind, so Kerrigan infested the Matriarch either after the Protoss evacuation, or sometime in between her battles with the Protoss on Char (after awakening there) and the Overmind's fall. Where the deus did she find the time to get away from there and infest the Matriarch? For that matter, how did she find the Matriarch - I thought it was implied that the Zerg had no idea about Shakuras until they followed the Protoss there through the Warp Gate.

Which reminds me of something else: In Brood Wars, the Dark Templar that meet up with Zeratul and Aldaris' forces on Shakuras don't even know what the Zerg were, simply calling them 'unfriendly visitors', which is more evidence that the vast majority of the Dark Templar had no real knowledge of the Zerg either.

I'm guessing that was more or less the case - only Zeratul's party, which made contact with Tassadar, probably knew what was going on.

[Napoleon the Clown]

I think Kerrigan did something a bit simpler to Raszagal than psionically messing her up. I'm rather certain she infested the dear Matriarch. Simple and irreversible. And sinister enough to be fitting of Kerrigan.

[DarthShady]

I think Kerrigan did something a bit simpler to Raszagal than psionically messing her up. I'm rather certain she infested the dear Matriarch. Simple and irreversible. And sinister enough to be fitting of Kerrigan.

I belive that it may be possible that the matriarch was infested, because IIRC when Zeratul tries to save her he realizes that he cannot release her from Kerrigan's control and is forced to kill her.

[Guardsman Bass]

I think Kerrigan did something a bit simpler to Raszagal than psionically messing her up. I'm rather certain she infested the dear Matriarch. Simple and irreversible. And sinister enough to be fitting of Kerrigan.

It wouldn't be without precedent. Still, it has the same question: when did Kerrigan find time between her awakening on Char (and subsequent battles there, since it mentions at the end of Starcraft Original that she is still there), and the events of Brood War, to infest Raszagal? Like I said, I thought the Zerg didn't even know about Shakuras until they followed the Protoss refugees there.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I think Kerrigan did something a bit simpler to Raszagal than psionically messing her up. I'm rather certain she infested the dear Matriarch. Simple and irreversible. And sinister enough to be fitting of Kerrigan.

I belive that it may be possible that the matriarch was infested, because IIRC when Zeratul tries to save her he realizes that he cannot release her from Kerrigan's control and is forced to kill her.

Except the entire point of the Zerg invasion was to infest the Protoss and incorporate its psionic power into the swarm, and in the original game the Overmind itself had to be made manifest on Aiur to begin the process. In Brood Wars, the secret mission centers around revealing the true identity of Duran, an agent for the Xel-Naga, and his mission of combining the traits of Protoss and Zerg. He said himself that Kerrigan was too short-sighted to understand it.

Basically, I was left with the impression that actually infesting the Protoss would be an incredibly long and drawn out process that Kerrigan simply didn't have the ability to accomplish, thus I went with the idea of psychic domination.

Like I said, I thought the Zerg didn't even know about Shakuras until they followed the Protoss refugees there.

In the original game it's stated that when Zeratul killed Zasz, he made brief contact with the Overmind itself, which is how the Overmind discovered the location of Aiur. Seeing as how Zeratul came from Shakuras, it's entirely possible the Overmind discovered its location as well and gave Kerrigan that knowledge.

[Zixinus]

If anything, I think that is one of Kerrigan's premier abilities. She is good at manipulating people - she managed to convince Mengsk that she wouldn't backstab him after wiping out the UED's primary base on Korhal, and convinced Fenix and Raynor that the UED was actually a bigger threat than an autonomous Zerg Horde.

Personally, I think what's more amazing is how many felled for it. Seriously, I can understand why the humans fell for it, at least those that had an emotional connection to her, but I just cannot see how they didn't see Kerrigan's treachery from a mile away.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Personally, I think what's more amazing is how many felled for it. Seriously, I can understand why the humans fell for it, at least those that had an emotional connection to her, but I just cannot see how they didn't see Kerrigan's treachery from a mile away.

Well, when she first encountered Raynor, she let him live and escape. So he could have thought that maybe she wasn't complete evil. Mengsk is, as previously noted, a psychotic, megalomaniac idiot. As for the Protoss: Aldaris was against any sort of alliance with her from the start, and Zeratul mostly agreed, and had to be persuaded by Raszagal, who was already (infested or just psionically dominated) in Kerrigan's pocket.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Also, Kerrigan was a lesser of two evils at that time. All of her "allies" were expecting her to stab them in the back, but they all knew that if the UED managed to get their personal Overmind online that they'd be in deep shit. Basically it was a situation where they could deal with the entirety of the Zerg and the UED at the same time, or they could drive off the UED and deal with Kerrigan separately.

Mengsk being an idiot (albeit a charismatic one) and Kerrigan having managed to get Raszagal under her sway didn't hurt, though.

[Crom]

How fucked are the Protoss at the end of Brood Wars? They lost their homeworld and were driven to Shakuras, while the Dark Templar's executive officer was corrupted and then executed. Are they pretty much no longer a major power?

[Balrog]

Their exact state isn't quite known, however it's apparent they've taken quite a beaten and haven't fully recovered. They lost their temple that builds Dragoons so they've upgraded the surviving models into Immortals, and Colossus war machines had to be dug out of asteroids from where they'd mothballed them. They are definitely on the decline.

[Tanasinn]

The Protoss are self-superior, hidebound religious idiots and the Terran Dominion is run by the equivilent of a hick Hitler. Add to that numerous unpleasant first encounters, and it doesn't surprise me that both sides are divided despite the danger.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

How fucked are the Protoss at the end of Brood Wars? They lost their homeworld and were driven to Shakuras, while the Dark Templar's executive officer was corrupted and then executed. Are they pretty much no longer a major power?

According to what little info that has been released about Starcraft 2, it's rather debatable. On the one hand, yeah, they've lost their biggest production center. On the other hand, over their history they've made a whole lot of stuff that they sealed away because it was too warlike for them. And there's the fact that their territory covered (the exact numbers aren't given) anywhere from a couple dozen to hundreds of worlds, and only a few of those were directly attacked.

So on the one hand the Protoss just got knocked down a few huge pegs. On the other hand, their culture is finally shifting back to a war-footing and digging up some truly nasty stuff, so the Zerg invasion has possibly done little more than wake a sleeping dragon.