Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

Slacker · Post by **Slacker** » 2008-03-20 02:06pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote: I wonder, human forces would need incredible air-lift for such an endeavor. Would Ukraine be up to the task of producing more of those giant Antonovs?

I believe they were still capable of producing them as of a couple of years ago, 2004-2005ish. That was the last time I looked into it, anyway. They might have some production delays getting things off the ground, though, I don't think any have been ordered recently.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-03-20 02:12pm

From the sounds of it Abigor has no troops with which to assault the ridge, no matter what way he goes. All of his primary troops were annihilated, so he only has militia left, and he has to throw civilians into the line of fire as per Satan's decree. So even if he deep strikes behind the human lines, and remember that he has no idea how deep those lines are because he has yet to find out about artillery and such, he probably does know that human concepts of lines of battle are much more fluid than demonic ones. If they understood the complexities of logistics they might be able to scramble such those lines a bit, but they don't yet, as evidenced by Memnon not having a clue what was going on during the tank resupply.

Abigor basically has been thrown into a no win situation. If he doesn't fight, Satan will annihilate his entire household. If he does fight, the humans will annihilate his entire household. He knows that Satan has no mercy, and he has seen that humans have less but then again no one ever tried to surrender, so there is a slight glimmer of hope in that regard if he considers it.

If humans start broadcasting propaganda into Hell he might actually consider surrender a viable option though.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-03-20 02:18pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:You don't want to nuke hell and annihilate human souls.

I wonder, human forces would need incredible air-lift for such an endeavor. Would Ukraine be up to the task of producing more of those giant Antonovs?

That's where Targeteering comes in. We can easily plan nuclear strikes to destroy half of Dis or so without harming anyone in Hell.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2008-03-20 02:25pm

White Haven wrote:Hell opened that portal. That's the difference here...Abigor isn't an idiot, and he knows he's been ordered to suicide-charge. BUT...he's got resources still. If he can open another portal to somewhere nearby, he can attack without going through the killing field. If he can, depending on the mechanics, a mass assault through multiple smaller portals around and on the ridge would be optimal. He's been ordered to take the ridge, and Satan meant that to mean a suicide-charge through the Hellmouth. Doesn't mean Abigor will read it that way, he's a smart guy.

And he may well get some help on the side from someone like Asmodeus, who might say to him: "Abigor, my old friend. Help me out here? How can I make the upcoming fight less like that Battle of Thermophylae the Persians in the Sixth Circle are always screaming about? Help me, and I'll see what I can do about making the Last Charge of the Army of Abigor less-suicidal."

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-03-20 02:29pm

He might get some help like that, but I think in the politics of Hell, Abigor currently has no friends. He's just been branded an incompetent coward and very nearly a traitor, so it would probably be considered suicide to be seen having any sort of connection with him now. Besides, he more or less has no assets anymore, so there is little incentive to help, and it seems that it takes a taste of human firepower to bring out the more selfless, community-minded instincts in the baldricks.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-03-20 02:31pm

I don't think Satan seriously expects Abigor to succeed. I think that his edict was meant as a death sentence for Abigor and his family line, in order to punish him in an extraordinarily vindictive way for his failure.

The fact that Satan wouldn't be smart enough to instantly leap-frog thousands of years of tactical development does not mean he would be so irretrievably stupid to think that a handful of hastily raised militias would succeed where a vast army of regulars had failed. Even if Abigor does something really clever like opening up a portal on the ridge line (despite the fact that the humans there are all military personnel and are probably under orders to wear their tinfoil hats at all times), he's only going to be able to harass the enemy, not destroy them or seriously disrupt their operations.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-03-20 02:32pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Asmodeus, Beelzebub, and DAGON? We're fuxored in the short term. Short of tactical nukes, there's no way we can hold the portal against those kinds of numbers. The positions would be overrun.

I predict the defection of Abigor.
Thermopylae, anyone? As Abigor said, the demons would simply be slaughtered until they blocked the portal with their corpses.

The portal is a deathtrap, and there's no mountain goat trail leading around it, either.

Well, there are 300 demons left under Abigor's command.

Frankly, I'd just only wait until a few Russian armoured corps with NBC gear show up and nuclear shells for their howitzers (they should be there in a few weeks), and then the multinational force can invade Hell. We can always fall back to the Hellmouth to defend it--and we should build fortifications around it a thousand times more dense than the Hindenburg Line--if the invasion fails, but it seems very worthwhile to keep the Baldricks off balance by doing the unthinkable, invading Hell itself with fast moving armoured columns.

Do the supplies exist, especially the ammunition, for a flat-out invasion of Hell? One would think that, given the humans are flirting with supply shortages just after destroying Abigor's army, an actual invasion of Hell beginning in just a few weeks would face serious supply shortcomings.

pdf27 · Post by **pdf27** » 2008-03-20 02:34pm

Something occurs to me.

Satan has told his armies to "take their time" and train up their reservists. Hell apparently has a different concept of time to the humans, at least judging by the way they have been so surprised by the developments in humankind over the past couple of hundred years.

Going on this, and the fact that his armies aren't going to be in any hurry after seeing what happened to the last army to attack the humans, it could easily be 6 months before hell attacks again. 6 months of mobilization on a total war footing will see human power increased immeasurably...

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-03-20 02:46pm

Satan's primary stupidity here is not that he doesn't immediately figure out several thousand years of military doctrine influenced by increasing sophistication in military technology. No the reason Satan is an idiot here is because one of his generals limps back with 99.9% casualties and says, "The humans are nothing like what he anticipated!" and then dismisses him as an incompetent coward. If he had actually listened, he might have been able to actually glean some important information and begun formulating new strategies. While I doubt they would immediately jump to using their ability to drop in behind human lines and then retreat, they would at least be on the right track instead of seemingly on the "Keep doing what we've been doing!" line of thought that will get their armies shot up.

Plus I doubt humanity will wait very long for Hell to act. The Hellmouth will probably be fortified out the wazoo at first, and artillery massed to bombard the other side. But the longer humans are given, the more likely they will be to set upon the idea of opening a portal into Dis and chucking a briefcase nuke through.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-03-20 02:48pm

Hopefully the other Demon Dukes are not as dumbassed as Satan, hopefully they'll yank Abrigor by the arm and go "dude, what happened over there, dude? no way! oh, man!"

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2008-03-20 02:59pm

Academia Nut wrote:If they understood the complexities of logistics they might be able to scramble such those lines a bit, but they don't yet, as evidenced by Memnon not having a clue what was going on during the tank resupply.

I don't see why this means that Abigor or any of his underlings don't know or can't figure it out. Memnon's tale has been one of him and the army getting fucked up and the mostly material and introspective observations while he flees, with his 'greatest' accomplishment against the human militaries being his playing dead to foil the "cunning plan" (of the helo attacks), while Abigor's shown more strategic and tactical thought such as adjusting SOP with the attempt at an envelopment, and correctly deducing the threat from "the ridge" (and its role in the fight) even if there was no way for him to neutralize it.

It was perfectly clear to me that Satan meant for Abigor to get fucked, especially seeing his reaction to Asmodeus, who may have not gotten the implication (to abandon Abigor). I am "encouraged" that Asmodeus, even if he doesn't act just as Shroom Man 777, may be one of these Dukes... because Abigor is fuckin' sympathetic now. Dear God (pun intended), for me he and Memnon (despite slaughtering a family) are now the protagonists of this for me, and Asmodeus may join them in that depending on what is posted in the future.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2008-03-20 03:00pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hopefully the other Demon Dukes are not as dumbassed as Satan, hopefully they'll yank Abrigor by the arm and go "dude, what happened over there, dude? no way! oh, man!"

In fairness, we don't know what Satan is thinking, nor what his reaction to Heavens wee message will be. We do not know what Heavens reaction to the killing of their diplomatic entourage will be and the consequences of that action. What does heaven know about earth and what will they do about it?

JN1 · Post by **JN1** » 2008-03-20 03:20pm

pdf27 wrote:Something occurs to me.

Satan has told his armies to "take their time" and train up their reservists. Hell apparently has a different concept of time to the humans, at least judging by the way they have been so surprised by the developments in humankind over the past couple of hundred years.

Going on this, and the fact that his armies aren't going to be in any hurry after seeing what happened to the last army to attack the humans, it could easily be 6 months before hell attacks again. 6 months of mobilization on a total war footing will see human power increased immeasurably...

My point exactly. If you take WW1 as a model of mobilisation from a standing start Britain was able to form an army of 2 million in around a year.
In this scenario we should be able to draw on the lessons of mobilisation in both world wars to do it more efficiently and possibly faster.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-03-20 03:41pm

I wonder if Satan isn't smarter than we're giving him credit for here. Perhaps he does comprehend what Abigor's trying to say, and his order to send the entire families of the Army of Abigor through to Earth is (besides being just spiteful) some effort to supress dissent: Perhaps he's simply going to proclaim far and wide that the invasion was such a success, that the Army of Abigor immediately sent for their families to live the high life, and that the next armies will similarly be able to conquer their very own land of milk and honey...

The Vortex Empire · Post by **The Vortex Empire** » 2008-03-20 03:44pm

If Abigor is smart, he'll surrender. It's the only option that doesn't involve the slaughter of him and his family members. Refusing means death, and attacking the humans means death. Now, 729 legions, 5 million baldricks, that is a different story. I think a draft may be called for here.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-03-20 03:46pm

Now, if Satan was VERY smart, he'd have those 5 million baldricks go on berserker rampages simultaneously. There's no WAY the responders could be everywhere at once, it would be absolute chaos for a day or two.

Stuart · Post by **Stuart** » 2008-03-20 03:47pm

NecronLord wrote:I wonder if Satan isn't smarter than we're giving him credit for here. Perhaps he does comprehend what Abigor's trying to say,

Oh he is, a lot smarter. He's spotted something already that's, if anything, a much more serious threat than the destruction of Abigor's Army. Remember, Satan is the Prince of Lies.

By the way, who would like to guess which WW2 General Abigor is modelled on?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-03-20 03:48pm

Stuart wrote:
NecronLord wrote:I wonder if Satan isn't smarter than we're giving him credit for here. Perhaps he does comprehend what Abigor's trying to say,
Oh he is, a lot smarter. He's spotted something already that's, if anything, a much more serious threat than the destruction of Abigor's Army. Remember, Satan is the Prince of Lies.

By the way, who would like to guess which WW2 General Abigor is modelled on?

Satan spotted that Abigor is fundamentally changing his behavior towards other demons. If he were to win using THAT tactic he would be an immensely dangerous threat to Satan because he would be commanding the demons' LOYALTY, not just their allegiance. So, Abigor's 'new way' has to be crushed as much as humans do.

Is Abigor Napoleon? Or Rommel?

Stuart · Post by **Stuart** » 2008-03-20 03:56pm

Darth Wong wrote:I don't think Satan seriously expects Abigor to succeed. I think that his edict was meant as a death sentence for Abigor and his family line, in order to punish him in an extraordinarily vindictive way for his failure.

That's exactly right. There's a political angle thrown in as well. Remember, if Satan starts killing the most senior leaders in hell himself, they could end up - would end up - conspiring against him. However, sending Abigor out to "regain his honor" is a sort of passive homicide. He isn't killing Abigor himself, he's simply putting him in a situation where his death is inevitable. Its rather like a murderer who has drugged somebody and then leaves them tied up with their mouth taped shut. It's a statistical near-certainty the victim will throw up and choke to death on their vomit. But the killer didn't kill them himself, no indeed.

Please remember, everybody, the demons in general - and Satan in particular - are smart, very smart indeed. They come from an environment where the stupid get killed. Incidently, I reckon demons are smarter than angels for that very reason. So, the immediate question should always be "what is this person playing at? What's his angle?"

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2008-03-20 03:57pm

We can infer that Heaven has some inkling of Hell not pulling its weight, but I don't know if the full extent (much less any details) are known; as it is, the message that Memnon was given to pass on to Satan was "we know that things aren't going right, fix it or we're unleashing our WMD."

Only look into an actual member of Heaven's thought process was that (although with him being a "moral prude"... is this a Take That? I'm not fond of those and it's helping me to sympathize with the protagonist demons, as it appears more on the human side) of the one who attacked Memnon; we don't even know what the delegation was going to say, much less what any others were thinking.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2008-03-20 04:06pm

Stuart wrote: By the way, who would like to guess which WW2 General Abigor is modelled on?

Omar Bradley?

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2008-03-20 04:36pm

The Vortex Empire wrote:If Abigor is smart, he'll surrender. It's the only option that doesn't involve the slaughter of him and his family members. Refusing means death, and attacking the humans means death. Now, 729 legions, 5 million baldricks, that is a different story. I think a draft may be called for here.

This isn't an option for Abigor, though. Humans have demonstrated far less mercy than other demons have. In the way he knows that warfare is run, two rivals will send armies out, get some number of foot soldiers killed, and then sue for terms, since if you went for total annihilation, you'd just be rolled up by one of your other rivals. Humans started out by killing his leadership, and then wiping out over 99% of his army . . . the escapees being escapees because of sheer, unadulterated luck.

As far as Abigor knows, Earth has become this sort of demon killing machine, where live demons go in, and come out as bloody, very dead, giblets. So it follows that submitting and suing for terms may well not even occur to Abigor. So he'll probably try his best to assimilate five millennia of human military advances, and he'll apply what he's learned to making the effort and will probably die trying. Unless Petraeus gets lucky the next time he tries capturing him.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-03-20 04:36pm

Considering that Satan is really smart, is it possible that he is intentionally delaying the next attack on earth? Because he thinks that heaven is playing dirty and using the humans to weaken him.

By the way, who would like to guess which WW2 General Abigor is modelled on?

Rommel

Brovane · Post by **Brovane** » 2008-03-20 04:39pm

Stuart wrote:
NecronLord wrote:I wonder if Satan isn't smarter than we're giving him credit for here. Perhaps he does comprehend what Abigor's trying to say,
Oh he is, a lot smarter. He's spotted something already that's, if anything, a much more serious threat than the destruction of Abigor's Army. Remember, Satan is the Prince of Lies.

By the way, who would like to guess which WW2 General Abigor is modelled on?

My best quess is Marshall of the Soviet Union Zhukov.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-03-20 04:44pm

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:This isn't an option for Abigor, though. Humans have demonstrated far less mercy than other demons have. In the way he knows that warfare is run, two rivals will send armies out, get some number of foot soldiers killed, and then sue for terms, since if you went for total annihilation, you'd just be rolled up by one of your other rivals. Humans started out by killing his leadership, and then wiping out over 99% of his army . . . the escapees being escapees because of sheer, unadulterated luck.

As far as Abigor knows, Earth has become this sort of demon killing machine, where live demons go in, and come out as bloody, very dead, giblets. So it follows that submitting and suing for terms may well not even occur to Abigor. So he'll probably try his best to assimilate five millennia of human military advances, and he'll apply what he's learned to making the effort and will probably die trying. Unless Petraeus gets lucky the next time he tries capturing him.

This depends greatly on how cute demon kiddies are. If they're sufficiently cute, the humans might decide not to slaughter them out of hand.