Starcraft: Why won't the Protoss and Humans ally more often?

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-03-20 02:54am

Most of them are under the control of Artanis, who is a young whippersnapper as far as Protoss are concerned (he's only 262 years old, as compared to the rest of the Protoss heroes, who are at least 300+), and they are struggling to bring the Dark Templar and former mainstream Protoss completely together while rebuilding their civilization. In addition to that, there appear to be fleets of the Protoss (including Zeratul's group) who are scattered across the galaxy. They're pretty weak right; Kerrigan probably couldn't finish them off, but she could drive them into damn near obscurity by taking Shakuras.

The UED seems okay; only their expeditionary fleet was destroyed. I would wager that they are probably going to send another one in Starcraft 2. Mengsk seems to be kicking around, but he's not that strong anymore - and most of the rest of the Terran worlds are in ruin.

Napoleon the Clown · Post by **Napoleon the Clown** » 2008-03-20 03:26am

The UED ran the fuck away and wound up getting offed by the Zerg, actually. None of it made it back to Earth, and basically everyone tried. That's all stuff that's stated at the end of Broodwar.

The Protoss are still suffering from internal strife. Even still, they're a force to be reckoned with. The Dominion is in shambles at the end of Broodwar, obviously. A government doesn't pull back together too horribly quickly, after all. And Kerrigan has a shitton of Zerg at her back, she just hasn't done anything with them. The books apparently state she could take over the entire sector at any time, but that she hasn't and nobody knows why, though it is implied that she's got a vague impression that shit will be hitting the fan. This is all stuff gleaned from Wikipedia, so I don't know just how accurate it is, but the shambles every other group is in compared to the Zerg would imply a reasonable chance of it being the case. Of course, we never know how much attention Blizzard will end up paying to the novels once StarCraft II actually comes out.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-03-20 04:44am

The UED ran the fuck away and wound up getting offed by the Zerg, actually. None of it made it back to Earth, and basically everyone tried. That's all stuff that's stated at the end of Broodwar.

That's what I meant - the UED Expeditionary Fleet (which is the UED you see in the game) got wiped out in its entire by Kerrigan, to point that not a single ship made it back. Apparently, the UED itself (the government) is still kicking around, though.

TithonusSyndrome · Post by **TithonusSyndrome** » 2008-03-20 09:58am

Zixinus wrote:Personally, I think what's more amazing is how many felled for it. Seriously, I can understand why the humans fell for it, at least those that had an emotional connection to her, but I just cannot see how they didn't see Kerrigan's treachery from a mile away.

It's even more baffling when you consider that Aldaris, a Judicator-caste Protoss with no especially potent psionic skills to speak of, was the only Protoss who sensed it.

If anything, I think that is one of Kerrigan's premier abilities. She is good at manipulating people - she managed to convince Mengsk that she wouldn't backstab him after wiping out the UED's primary base on Korhal, and convinced Fenix and Raynor that the UED was actually a bigger threat than an autonomous Zerg Horde.

Game mechanics put Kerrigan's actual combat strength well below that of many of her Protoss counterparts, but I wonder if this is canonically the case given what we see of her fight with Zeratul in the SC2 trailer. She appears to have him well on the defensive, and is possibly even toying with him. Is she really that strong?

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2008-03-20 10:00am

Napoleon the Clown wrote:The UED ran the fuck away and wound up getting offed by the Zerg, actually. None of it made it back to Earth, and basically everyone tried. That's all stuff that's stated at the end of Broodwar.

The Protoss are still suffering from internal strife. Even still, they're a force to be reckoned with. The Dominion is in shambles at the end of Broodwar, obviously. A government doesn't pull back together too horribly quickly, after all. And Kerrigan has a shitton of Zerg at her back, she just hasn't done anything with them. The books apparently state she could take over the entire sector at any time, but that she hasn't and nobody knows why, though it is implied that she's got a vague impression that shit will be hitting the fan. This is all stuff gleaned from Wikipedia, so I don't know just how accurate it is, but the shambles every other group is in compared to the Zerg would imply a reasonable chance of it being the case. Of course, we never know how much attention Blizzard will end up paying to the novels once StarCraft II actually comes out.

Here's a random thought...

Given that they're now run by a single, at least partly-human (though possibly insane) mind, has anyone put forth the idea that Kerrigan might not want to wipe out all the other races in the long run?

I mean, she wants the Zerg to be the dominant power in the area, which is understandable - but if it's intelligently controlled rather than an animalistic or preprogrammed group, it never made that much sense for the hive-alien-du-jour to automatically want to destroy everything else they come in contact with. Seemed more like knee-jerk moustache-twirling aliens than anything else.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2008-03-20 11:34am

The fleet the UED sent to the Kor sector was total garbage in SC:BW. Basically a whole bunch of frigates and infantry, and a handful battleships. Perhaps only one battleship, the flagship. They had to steal them from the Terran Confederacy, and if not for their being distracted by the Zerg the UED would've been crushed. It was a whole bunch of special forces, scientists and scavengers with no staying power. If I remember right they didn't even have tactical nukes -- they had to steal them.

Now, the only question is if that was all the UED had to offer. For example, was that anagalous to America's venture to Iraq, and did they send their best troops. I don't think so, because the UED isn't a democracy. It's a dictatorship, and a rather brutal one at that. What was sent was the dregs, the garbage.

So the UED is completely intact, and could probably recouperate their losses rather quickly, unless their society is so insular as to regard interstellar conquest as pointless. Starcraft 2 will probably involve Kerrigan attacking Earth directly.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2008-03-20 11:50am

TithonusSyndrome wrote:
If anything, I think that is one of Kerrigan's premier abilities. She is good at manipulating people - she managed to convince Mengsk that she wouldn't backstab him after wiping out the UED's primary base on Korhal, and convinced Fenix and Raynor that the UED was actually a bigger threat than an autonomous Zerg Horde.
Game mechanics put Kerrigan's actual combat strength well below that of many of her Protoss counterparts, but I wonder if this is canonically the case given what we see of her fight with Zeratul in the SC2 trailer. She appears to have him well on the defensive, and is possibly even toying with him. Is she really that strong?

She got a lot of boosting by the Overmind, and had potent psionic potential beforehand. After her "rebirth" she was able to do what the Overmind itself or a quarter dozen cerebrates would do (Controlling most of the swarm). For all we know, she might have further "evolved" her body, rather like how the Torrasque exists but isn't normally used due to it's sheer, er, well the excuse differs

.

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-20 12:15pm

Napoleon the Clown wrote:The Protoss are still suffering from internal strife. Even still, they're a force to be reckoned with. The Dominion is in shambles at the end of Broodwar, obviously. A government doesn't pull back together too horribly quickly, after all. And Kerrigan has a shitton of Zerg at her back, she just hasn't done anything with them. The books apparently state she could take over the entire sector at any time, but that she hasn't and nobody knows why, though it is implied that she's got a vague impression that shit will be hitting the fan.

The ending cinematic of Brood War gives the following on the state of the factions: The Protoss still have semi-decent numbers, but their logistical and communication network are fucked. Shakuras seems to have some really nasty anti-Zerg defenses (probably tied to the Xel-Naga temple) that prevents anything larger than covert infiltration against them.

The Dominion is royally fucked.

The UED fleet is completely destroyed.

Zeratul and his forces have cut off contact with all other factions following his discovery of the Hybrid and the Xel-Naga interference.

Raynor's Raiders have gone off on their own.

Kerrigan has established herself as the dominant power in the sector, senses there's 'big things' on the horizon, but still, for whatever reason, decides to let everyone else lick their wounds.

Starcraft 2 has given out the following in bits and pieces:

The Dominion is slowly pulling itself back together.

The Kel-Morian Combine is apparently playing a much bigger role on the Terran end of things.

The Protoss are digging out and pulling together a bunch of war-machines they used to think were too brutal for their delicate tastes.

Raynor has turned to a bitter alcoholic due to the fact that he lost everything to Mengsk and the Zerg, and the fact that his girlfriend turned into a bitch-queen from Hell. But he still leads the Raiders as a mercenary group.

brianeyci wrote:Now, the only question is if that was all the UED had to offer. For example, was that anagalous to America's venture to Iraq, and did they send their best troops. I don't think so, because the UED isn't a democracy. It's a dictatorship, and a rather brutal one at that. What was sent was the dregs, the garbage.

Several times in game, Dugalle and Stukov state to various factions that they are facing the full might of the UED. Granted, it could just be posturing, but there's also the fact that according to the manual, Dugalle and Stukov were generally considered the best military minds the UED had to offer. So either the UED has next to no military might, and were reduced to sending an army of infiltrators, or they are colossally stupid and sent off their best admiral and vice-admiral off with nothing more than a shit fleet.

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-20 12:29pm

TithonusSyndrome wrote:Game mechanics put Kerrigan's actual combat strength well below that of many of her Protoss counterparts, but I wonder if this is canonically the case given what we see of her fight with Zeratul in the SC2 trailer. She appears to have him well on the defensive, and is possibly even toying with him. Is she really that strong?

No offense, but that shot shows all of two hits from her, both of which look like they were easily blocked by Zeratul. For all we know, the next two seconds could have been him laughing at her pathetic weakness and decking her out. I don't think it gives us any real evidence for either of their strengths, except for the fact that Zeratul can block at least some of her hits.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-03-20 04:45pm

Several times in game, Dugalle and Stukov state to various factions that they are facing the full might of the UED. Granted, it could just be posturing, but there's also the fact that according to the manual, Dugalle and Stukov were generally considered the best military minds the UED had to offer. So either the UED has next to no military might, and were reduced to sending an army of infiltrators, or they are colossally stupid and sent off their best admiral and vice-admiral off with nothing more than a shit fleet.

The former might not really surprise me. Keep in mind that the UED was previously the United Powers League that controlled 93% of Earth, and put the world and humanity through a gigantic cultural, linguistic, and religious purge (they outlawed all the major religions, and designated english as the official language, banning the use of all other languages). They've also been this way for, what, at least a century if not more? It's entirely possible that they'd so subjugated their potential military opponents that they only had a token military force outside of whatever home security forces they possess, and that their main forces were created primarily to deal with internal dissension and conflict.

Not like the Koprulu Sector, where military conflict between the colonies was endemic (there was a war between the Confederacy and the Kel-Morian Combine that the Confederacy won before the events in Starcraft Original), and they've also had to spend at least the most recent months if not years fighting both dangerous alien threats and intra-Terran fights.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-03-20 04:46pm

Then again, it does mention "dissident nations" were brought into the UPL fold, leading it to become the UED, but it doesn't say anything about whether these were serious military threats to the UPL's authority, or simply areas where it was too costly for them to bring into line (like the "volatile South American states" that the UPL couldn't originally bring into the fold).

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-03-20 05:03pm

The Protoss are digging out and pulling together a bunch of war-machines they used to think were too brutal for their delicate tastes.

That's a bit I don't get. I know the Protoss have the survival instinct of a suicide bomber, but couldn't they dig stuff like that up after their homeworld was trashed twice over?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2008-03-20 05:10pm

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:Several times in game, Dugalle and Stukov state to various factions that they are facing the full might of the UED. Granted, it could just be posturing, but there's also the fact that according to the manual, Dugalle and Stukov were generally considered the best military minds the UED had to offer. So either the UED has next to no military might, and were reduced to sending an army of infiltrators, or they are colossally stupid and sent off their best admiral and vice-admiral off with nothing more than a shit fleet.

Not really, if all the UED expected was descendants of malcontents and crap colonies. Also, if it is a multinational expedition, it's entirely possible they sent their best with a small core, and the rest are all total crap, like how the UN works.

Even if you're right it'll be retconned when Starcraft 2 comes out. The UED will definitely have bigger, badder, more incredible units. So we'll be forced to conclude the UED sent its shit forces, whether it's consistent with SC1 or not, unless the forces were built in the interlude between SC1 and SC2. This is unlikely. Since nobody made it back home, Earth doesn't know about the Zerg or the Protoss or the renegade Terrans who somehow destroyed their "greatest general and greatest admiral."

All they know is a fleet is missing, and not even that since they would expect zero contact. They have no reason to suddenly go on a war footing. If Raynor is in SC2, unless they make Raynor an old man it'll be a number of years, not decades. Not enough to shit out a crapload of no doubt new technology in SC2, and they don't even have the Protoss's lameo excuse of buried war machines.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-03-20 05:13pm

Zixinus wrote:
The Protoss are digging out and pulling together a bunch of war-machines they used to think were too brutal for their delicate tastes.
That's a bit I don't get. I know the Protoss have the survival instinct of a suicide bomber, but couldn't they dig stuff like that up after their homeworld was trashed twice over?

As far as i remember their homeworld was thrashed once only. And that was a surprise attack.

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-20 07:32pm

brianeyci wrote:This is unlikely. Since nobody made it back home, Earth doesn't know about the Zerg or the Protoss or the renegade Terrans who somehow destroyed their "greatest general and greatest admiral."

All they know is a fleet is missing, and not even that since they would expect zero contact. They have no reason to suddenly go on a war footing. If Raynor is in SC2, unless they make Raynor an old man it'll be a number of years, not decades. Not enough to shit out a crapload of no doubt new technology in SC2, and they don't even have the Protoss's lameo excuse of buried war machines.

That was something that confused me in Brood Wars. At the end of the Terran campaign you see a cinematic that was done in the tone of propaganda film. I highly doubt this was what was being shown to the expeditionary force since they were right there in the sector, cleaning up that shit. From what I'm guessing, the expeditionary fleet sent a couple ships back after they had secured the Overmind with the news, and the images from that got put into the video shown to people on earth. So it's likely earth did know about the Zerg and the Protoss.

Of course, when everything went to hell for the UED fleet after that, they didn't have time to send another 'messenger ship' back, and ended up getting vaporized by Kerrigan.

avatarxprime · Post by **avatarxprime** » 2008-03-21 03:15am

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
brianeyci wrote:This is unlikely. Since nobody made it back home, Earth doesn't know about the Zerg or the Protoss or the renegade Terrans who somehow destroyed their "greatest general and greatest admiral."

All they know is a fleet is missing, and not even that since they would expect zero contact. They have no reason to suddenly go on a war footing. If Raynor is in SC2, unless they make Raynor an old man it'll be a number of years, not decades. Not enough to shit out a crapload of no doubt new technology in SC2, and they don't even have the Protoss's lameo excuse of buried war machines.
That was something that confused me in Brood Wars. At the end of the Terran campaign you see a cinematic that was done in the tone of propaganda film. I highly doubt this was what was being shown to the expeditionary force since they were right there in the sector, cleaning up that shit. From what I'm guessing, the expeditionary fleet sent a couple ships back after they had secured the Overmind with the news, and the images from that got put into the video shown to people on earth. So it's likely earth did know about the Zerg and the Protoss.

Of course, when everything went to hell for the UED fleet after that, they didn't have time to send another 'messenger ship' back, and ended up getting vaporized by Kerrigan.

Doesn't seem like it based on the Brood War manual. The UPL had supposedly been keeping tabs on the 4 colony ships since they left Earth, but didn't bother with them and their "slow advancements." It wasn't until they recorded the Protoss and Zerg that they decided they needed to act. This triggered the UED, which was supposed to be very militaristic. They watched the Protoss and Zerg for months before deciding on a plan, which was to use the Zerg to kill the Protoss and subjugate the Terrans.

From all of that, it would sound like they were able to monitor the goings on in the Koprulu Sector in real-time or very close to it. It wouldn't matter if the UED fleet never made it back to Earth because they would have seen everything from Earth anyway.

I'm guessing this is the reason for the smallish fleet though. They thought the Terrans were dirt and were over-confident that they could gain control of the Zerg and use them to kill the Protoss after spending all their time and resources studying them for months. So they sent in a small fleet composed of high end personnel to slip in, take what they needed from the Terrans and then gain control of the Zerg and mow everything down.

Hopefully seeing the end result of their hubris will cause the UED to come back with their big guns.

TithonusSyndrome · Post by **TithonusSyndrome** » 2008-03-21 06:24am

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
TithonusSyndrome wrote:Game mechanics put Kerrigan's actual combat strength well below that of many of her Protoss counterparts, but I wonder if this is canonically the case given what we see of her fight with Zeratul in the SC2 trailer. She appears to have him well on the defensive, and is possibly even toying with him. Is she really that strong?
No offense, but that shot shows all of two hits from her, both of which look like they were easily blocked by Zeratul. For all we know, the next two seconds could have been him laughing at her pathetic weakness and decking her out. I don't think it gives us any real evidence for either of their strengths, except for the fact that Zeratul can block at least some of her hits.

She's striking at Zeratul from waaaaay above him based on how her legs are lancing down on him, especially considering that for all her power she's still the height of a human female and Zeratul is a good nine or ten feet tall. Unless Zeratul is so ridiculously strong a fighter that he can afford to put himself on lower ground and restrain her with ease to insult her, it would seem that she can maintain the advantage in a fight against one of the franchise's most powerful melee combatants.

Also, while it may not be related whatsoever, note that at the end of the Blizzard playthrough demo, Zeratul boards the Hyperion and confronts Raynor in a hallway just before collapsing from fatigue or wounds.

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-21 02:29pm

TithonusSyndrome wrote:She's striking at Zeratul from waaaaay above him based on how her legs are lancing down on him, especially considering that for all her power she's still the height of a human female and Zeratul is a good nine or ten feet tall. Unless Zeratul is so ridiculously strong a fighter that he can afford to put himself on lower ground and restrain her with ease to insult her, it would seem that she can maintain the advantage in a fight against one of the franchise's most powerful melee combatants.

Again, it's a whole second and a half of video, there's not a whole lot of evidence we can draw from that. She could have just did one jump and a pair of kicks, or she could have jumped off a higher ledge and did a pair of kicks. All we know for sure is that Zeratul blocked two kicks from above, we cannot determine *anything* else without more evidence.

Also, while it may not be related whatsoever, note that at the end of the Blizzard playthrough demo, Zeratul boards the Hyperion and confronts Raynor in a hallway just before collapsing from fatigue or wounds.

So? How do we know that fatigue/wounds weren't caused by attacks from other Zerg? Given what we've seen, it's more likely they were caused by other Zerg. Every time we've seen Kerrigan confronting someone else, she's always had a couple of Zerg at her side, from Lurkers to Ultralisks to Guardians.

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-21 02:32pm

avatarxprime wrote:Doesn't seem like it based on the Brood War manual. The UPL had supposedly been keeping tabs on the 4 colony ships since they left Earth, but didn't bother with them and their "slow advancements." It wasn't until they recorded the Protoss and Zerg that they decided they needed to act...

...From all of that, it would sound like they were able to monitor the goings on in the Koprulu Sector in real-time or very close to it. It wouldn't matter if the UED fleet never made it back to Earth because they would have seen everything from Earth anyway.

That's true, why would the expeditionary fleet worry about getting a signal back to Earth if Earth has been watching them the entire time? A bit of a plot hole there, if you ask me.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2008-03-21 02:42pm

Regarding these games (SC/BW), eh. Why exactly does the UED use the same hardware as a small group of isolated rag-tag colonists again?

I'm also rather surprised that the 'obligatory ancient race' happens to have more or less one planet with their eggs in that basket (and a broken basket at that after SC), while the rag-tag humans have multiple nations, that are doing fairly well by themselves.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-03-21 02:50pm

Nephtys wrote:Regarding these games (SC/BW), eh. Why exactly does the UED use the same hardware as a small group of isolated rag-tag colonists again?

Because they stole most of it from the Dominion.

I'm also rather surprised that the 'obligatory ancient race' happens to have more or less one planet with their eggs in that basket (and a broken basket at that after SC), while the rag-tag humans have multiple nations, that are doing fairly well by themselves.

That is strange. If they are digging up war machines from other places it must mean that they had many colonies in the past.

Tanasinn · Post by **Tanasinn** » 2008-03-21 04:07pm

Regarding these games (SC/BW), eh. Why exactly does the UED use the same hardware as a small group of isolated rag-tag colonists again?

Because the devs are lazy beyond belief.

I mean

Because they "stole the hardware to blend in."

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-21 04:39pm

Nephtys wrote:I'm also rather surprised that the 'obligatory ancient race' happens to have more or less one planet with their eggs in that basket (and a broken basket at that after SC), while the rag-tag humans have multiple nations, that are doing fairly well by themselves.

From what I've seen, the Protoss followed Starfleet's practice of centralizing the fuck out of everything. On the other hand, they seem to have had enough sense to keep some back-ups on other planets, which will come into play in SC2.

As far as territory is concerned, the manual states that the Terrans in the Koprulu sector, at their greatest extent, existed in the 'shadow' of the Protoss empire, implying the that Protoss territory was much larger than Terrans'. It's also stated that the Xel'Naga held either hundreds or thousands of systems, I can't remember the exact figure, and that the Protoss managed to claim only a fraction of that when they left. So total Protoss holdings seem to be anywhere from a couple dozen worlds to several hundred. Either way, they would have to be suicidally centralized to have all of those holdings horribly crippled by the loss of a single planet.

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-21 04:41pm

DarthShady wrote:That is strange. If they are digging up war machines from other places it must mean that they had many colonies in the past.

In one of the Brood Wars missions in the Protoss campaign, Kerrigan wonders why the Terrans have claimed Braxis if it was supposed to be a Protoss world, and Zeratul replies that the Protoss had abandoned Braxis a couple hundred years ago.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-03-21 05:31pm

I mean, she wants the Zerg to be the dominant power in the area, which is understandable - but if it's intelligently controlled rather than an animalistic or preprogrammed group, it never made that much sense for the hive-alien-du-jour to automatically want to destroy everything else they come in contact with. Seemed more like knee-jerk moustache-twirling aliens than anything else.

That makes a whole new avenue of questions regarding her motivations. She wants to be safe and secure, yeah. But what beyond that? Will she boringly contemplate the nature of existence? Will she try to take over the Protoss homeworld to gain the genetics for psionics?

Will she start dating? Dear god, that's a scary thought.

"Well, I'm a nuclear engineer and I watch old Earth series for fun. What do you do?"
"I rule over the Zerg Swarm, populate thousands of worlds and slaughter anyone who stands in my way."
"Ermm... that sounds nice.

(if anyone can make a better joke out of this, please do)

Starcraft 2 will probably involve Kerrigan attacking Earth directly.

Why would she do that?

In one of the Brood Wars missions in the Protoss campaign, Kerrigan wonders why the Terrans have claimed Braxis if it was supposed to be a Protoss world, and Zeratul replies that the Protoss had abandoned Braxis a couple hundred years ago.

What would make the Protoss leave the planet?