Starcraft: Why won't the Protoss and Humans ally more often?

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-21 06:03pm

Or perhaps when she was infested, she received a hefty dose of the Xel-Naga implanted, Zerg instincts to expand and incorporate others into the swarm. She is a Zerg-Terran hybrid, after all, and it's unreasonable to assume that she's going to operate based on wholly human needs or instincts.

Darth Smiley · Post by **Darth Smiley** » 2008-03-21 06:37pm

What I'm wondering is why the major powers haven't build another PsyDisruptor. If the weapon was made by the Confederacy, then surely the Protoss or the Dominion could build another one, even if it might take some time to do so. Then is practically a cake walk to wipe out the Zerg - and all Kerrigan can do is watch helplessly as the Zerg run amok, kill themselves, and then get systematically annihilated by the protoss and/or humans.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-03-21 07:13pm

Darth Smiley wrote:What I'm wondering is why the major powers haven't build another PsyDisruptor. If the weapon was made by the Confederacy, then surely the Protoss or the Dominion could build another one, even if it might take some time to do so. Then is practically a cake walk to wipe out the Zerg - and all Kerrigan can do is watch helplessly as the Zerg run amok, kill themselves, and then get systematically annihilated by the protoss and/or humans.

Because they can't simply build another one. The Psy Disruptor was a product of confederate research and technology, and that was all lost when the Confederacy fell.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-03-21 07:22pm

What would make the Protoss leave the planet?

That my friend is the million dollar question.

If the protoss had dozens or hundreds of colonies, what would make them leave those colonies? They even abandoned their holy crystals. What would cause such an advanced civilization to abandon everything and return to their homeworld?

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-21 07:27pm

DarthShady wrote:
Darth Smiley wrote:What I'm wondering is why the major powers haven't build another PsyDisruptor. If the weapon was made by the Confederacy, then surely the Protoss or the Dominion could build another one, even if it might take some time to do so. Then is practically a cake walk to wipe out the Zerg - and all Kerrigan can do is watch helplessly as the Zerg run amok, kill themselves, and then get systematically annihilated by the protoss and/or humans.
Because they can't simply build another one. The Psy Disruptor was a product of confederate research and technology, and that was all lost when the Confederacy fell.

Why can't the Protoss build one then? They're far more advanced than the Terrans, already have the power to severely fuck with the minds of others (the Dark Archon's mind control abilities spring to mind), and have already demonstrated a willingness to fuse their technology with their psionic powers (Khaydarin crystals, psi-blades, etc.). I could understand them unwilling to work with the 'immature' Terrans to improve psi-emitter technology to bridge the gap (it's stated that the Psi-disrupter is based directly off psi-emitters, which Mengsk has the technology to produce), but what's stopping them from building one of their own?

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-03-21 07:38pm

Why can't the Protoss build one then? They're far more advanced than the Terrans, already have the power to severely fuck with the minds of others (the Dark Archon's mind control abilities spring to mind), and have already demonstrated a willingness to fuse their technology with their psionic powers (Khaydarin crystals, psi-blades, etc.). I could understand them unwilling to work with the 'immature' Terrans to improve psi-emitter technology to bridge the gap (it's stated that the Psi-disrupter is based directly off psi-emitters, which Mengsk has the technology to produce), but what's stopping them from building one of their own?

I guess it is possible for them to build one. But that doesn't seem likely, considering that the only working psydisruptor was destroyed.Besides if it was possible don't you think they would have done it by now and not let Kerrigan kick their asses?

montypython · Post by **montypython** » 2008-03-21 07:42pm

DarthShady wrote:
Why can't the Protoss build one then? They're far more advanced than the Terrans, already have the power to severely fuck with the minds of others (the Dark Archon's mind control abilities spring to mind), and have already demonstrated a willingness to fuse their technology with their psionic powers (Khaydarin crystals, psi-blades, etc.). I could understand them unwilling to work with the 'immature' Terrans to improve psi-emitter technology to bridge the gap (it's stated that the Psi-disrupter is based directly off psi-emitters, which Mengsk has the technology to produce), but what's stopping them from building one of their own?
I guess it is possible for them to build one. But that doesn't seem likely, considering that the only working psydisruptor was destroyed.Besides if it was possible don't you think they would have done it by now and not let Kerrigan kick their asses?

It'd probably still take a while to get one operational even with better understanding of psionics and related technologies.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-03-21 09:26pm

Why can't the Protoss build one then? They're far more advanced than the Terrans, already have the power to severely fuck with the minds of others (the Dark Archon's mind control abilities spring to mind), and have already demonstrated a willingness to fuse their technology with their psionic powers (Khaydarin crystals, psi-blades, etc.). I could understand them unwilling to work with the 'immature' Terrans to improve psi-emitter technology to bridge the gap (it's stated that the Psi-disrupter is based directly off psi-emitters, which Mengsk has the technology to produce), but what's stopping them from building one of their own?

My guess is that they simply can't think of it, consider it unhonourable or it would fuck with them too.

And it does have after all, a limited value. You attract the Zerg, sure. Then what?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2008-03-21 09:32pm

Aren't those dredlock like this the Pross have suppose to be some sort psykic energy antenna or something similar and that's why it was such a big this when they cut them off from the Dark templar.

that might explain why protoss never thought of a psy-disruptor.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-03-21 09:52pm

DarthShady wrote:
What would make the Protoss leave the planet?
That my friend is the million dollar question.

If the protoss had dozens or hundreds of colonies, what would make them leave those colonies? They even abandoned their holy crystals. What would cause such an advanced civilization to abandon everything and return to their homeworld?

They left at least a few of them because they were settled before the "Aeon of Strife" - or at least I think that's what Zeratul mentions in Brood War Protoss Mission Four with regards to Braxis (or "Khyrador" when it was a Protoss colony). Once the all-out, nihilistic war between the clans got going they pretty much collapsed back to Aiur, then back into primitiveness. Or the colonies that did stay out in space simply died off without resupply available.

It's hard to explain why the Protoss were so extremely centralized on Aiur. My best guess is that it was due to a combination of three factors:

1)They aren't very prolific. The guide booklet mentions that the Protoss are not a particularly numerous species, and they don't breed very quickly, so they supplement their armies with machines. That could mean that while they control and take resources from a very large area, their actual population is extremely tiny compared to it, to the point where much of the population beyond warriors and maybe some Khalai related to the business of resource extraction and the like probably lives at least part-time on Aiur.

2)Their technology is both extremely rapid and highly prone to centralization. The warp gate - assuming they built it - allowed for very rapid travel between Shakuras and Aiur, which are presumably separated by at least some distance, seeing as the Orthodox Protoss never came across it in their dominion. They also have faster-than-light travel, to the point where it doesn't appear that there are noticeable travel distances within their empire, or at least from Aiur to the Koprulu Sector. Both of these suggest that they at least have the technological capacity to keep most of their population on Aiur while militarily controlling a large area (the guide booklet actually says that they reclaimed about "one-eighth" of the territory controlled by the Xel'Naga, who supposedly held sway over the galaxy), particularly since they supplement their forces with lots of machines.

At the same time, remember the nature of a lot of Protoss tech? It's psionically driven, and where are most of the Khayderin Crystals and the like that power their technology? Aiur. Hell, they even draw a lot of their power long-distance from Aiur - if the guidebooklet is to be believed, then much of their off-Aiur settlement draws its power directly from Aiur's energy instead of independent power sources (but not their ships). I don't know why that's the case - maybe they are just so confident in their military capabilities that they couldn't imagine an enemy seriously being able to threaten their constructions.

3. Religious Orthodoxy. Remember that the Protoss, before the events in Starcraft, were a highly orthodox group strictly divided into castes created upon quasi-religious lines as interpreted by the dominant caste, the Judicators. They are - or were - extremely intolerant of religious dissension and any Protoss group that might assert its independence from central Judicator control, due to the refusal of the Dark Templar tribes to surrender their control even after Adun taught them how to use their powers along the lines of the Khala (before they were expelled). It's entirely possible that they deliberately sabotaged and/or prevented any attempts to set up potentially independent-seeking colonies that would draw a decent fraction of the Protoss population away from their control on Aiur.

Notice that the Dark Templar don't seem to have a lot of the above weaknesses - they are all over the place - but they're also much less numerous.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2008-03-21 10:23pm

Humans are concentrated on Earth in Star Trek because they got in the game late, not out of any reluctance to colonize. If anything they're too focused on exploration, considering it a moral imperative rather than optional.

Protoss in Starcraft are concentrated because they've got warp gates.

I see no problem in concentrating power, as long as you've got an insurance basket somewhere to rebuild. The Protoss are not wiped out -- their fleet was away and they got caught off guard. If the Protoss spread out, they'd be like the dumb hunter species in Star Trek Voyager, because they don't have the numbers. They must be very conservative in terms of reproduction, or a lifespan of a thousand years would've fucked their society.

As far as I know every Protoss is a warrior of some kind, and the bulk of their race survived either because they weren't on Aiur or they got through warp gates. The people who died on Aiur would've been mostly Judicator Caste, the backwards thinking Aldaris people and not much of a loss.

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-03-22 08:34pm

It seems to be heavily implied that most (if not all) of the Terran holdings in the sector are in one solar system as well. Tarsonis, Umoja, Moria, Korhal (well...maybe not, the Confederates could have built missiles with warp drives), are all at least suggested to be in the same system. The only human worlds we see that could easily be outside that system seem to be mostly undeveloped, save for small military and resource extraction bases.

Also where did the UED find the time to assemble their fleet and send it to the Koprulu sector? The original colony ships are stated to have taken about 38 years to reach there, and Starcraft's story seems to span at most under two years. If the UED ships had fancy new super fast warp drives, you'd think someone would have sent a ship back to Earth to say "holy shit send more ships!".

Darth Smiley · Post by **Darth Smiley** » 2008-03-22 11:30pm

DarthShady wrote:
Darth Smiley wrote:What I'm wondering is why the major powers haven't build another PsyDisruptor. If the weapon was made by the Confederacy, then surely the Protoss or the Dominion could build another one, even if it might take some time to do so. Then is practically a cake walk to wipe out the Zerg - and all Kerrigan can do is watch helplessly as the Zerg run amok, kill themselves, and then get systematically annihilated by the protoss and/or humans.
Because they can't simply build another one. The Psy Disruptor was a product of confederate research and technology, and that was all lost when the Confederacy fell.

There are a couple of problems with that theory. The first one is that the Dominion took over the Confederacy - so any infrastructure and technology that is was not destroyed in the fighting is now in the hands of the Dominion. We know for a fact that the Dominion is capable of building Psychic Beacons, and the Psy Disruptor is based on the same technology. The second this is that even if they can't build one by the end of SC:BW, the Dominion must realize that the only thing that could possibly save them from the Zerg if (when) they come is the Psy Disruptor. Since we already know they have the theoretical basis for the technology, there should be nothing from stopping them from starting from square one and building a new one, even if it takes them a decade or two.

This leads me to wonder what the hell Kerrigan is up to. She has to know that if the Dominion gets a Disruptor up and running, she's just flat out fucked over. The only real solution is to reduce Terran civilization (at least in their sector) to rubble so that they won't have the technology or infrastructure to build a new one - but she obviously hasn't so why hasn't a new disruptor been constructed?

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-03-23 12:22am

Darth Smiley wrote:<snip Psi-disrupter stuff>

It's stated in the Terran missions in Brood Wars that the Psi-Disrupter was a top-secret piece of Confederate technology that was stuck on Tarsonis, a heavily Zerg-infested planet that, as far as we know, the Dominion had no permanent bases on. It's also stated that Mengsk had known of the plans for the Psi-Disrupter and had spent a lot of time searching for it, but never found it and assumed then that it never got past the planning stage.

Dugalle and Stukov, as far as I can tell, stumbled on it only because Duran, as an agent for the Xel-Naga, wanted the war to keep going for a while longer to cover his own activities and gave them information on it.

avatarxprime · Post by **avatarxprime** » 2008-03-23 12:23am

Darth Smiley wrote:This leads me to wonder what the hell Kerrigan is up to. She has to know that if the Dominion gets a Disruptor up and running, she's just flat out fucked over. The only real solution is to reduce Terran civilization (at least in their sector) to rubble so that they won't have the technology or infrastructure to build a new one - but she obviously hasn't so why hasn't a new disruptor been constructed?

Based on the Story Mode walkthrough from BlizzCon, it would seem that Kerrigan is prepping for taking on the Xel'Naga. They would represent a far more potent enemy than either of the pre-existing sides.

As far as the UED are concerned, she thinks they are wiped out and won't be a threat anymore.

For the Protoss, they are in a disarray and with the loss of Aiur they have lost their largest manufacturing base. Considering the speed at which the Zerg can reproduce, she should have time to eliminate them following preparing for the Xel'Naga. Also, she knows they are hesitant to attack her after she managed to dominate the Matriarch.

For the Terrans, I do admit the looming threat of another Psy-disruptor does seem like something worthwhile to eliminate, but the Xel'Naga might be that much more of a threat. Heck, she might have found a way to make the Psy-disruptor no longer useful in her quest to evolve and take out the Xel'Naga.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-03-23 09:11am

Based on the Story Mode walkthrough from BlizzCon, it would seem that Kerrigan is prepping for taking on the Xel'Naga. They would represent a far more potent enemy than either of the pre-existing sides.

That is true, considering they have these new Protoss/Zerg hybrids that Duran made for them.

As far as the UED are concerned, she thinks they are wiped out and won't be a threat anymore.

Only the UED expeditionary fleet was wiped out. I have a feeling they might come back in force in SC2.

For the Protoss, they are in a disarray and with the loss of Aiur they have lost their largest manufacturing base. Considering the speed at which the Zerg can reproduce, she should have time to eliminate them following preparing for the Xel'Naga. Also, she knows they are hesitant to attack her after she managed to dominate the Matriarch.

I don't think Kerrigan will have an easy way to defeat the Protoss considering they are on Shakuras and they have that anti-zerg temple. Not to mention all those new toys they are digging up.

A thought about Duran; If he was infested by the Zerg(Kerrigan), considering he worked for her, how is it that he is working for the Xal'naga? Why would Kerrigan trust him so much? How the hell did he manage to infiltrate the Zerg and gain Kerrigan's trust?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2008-03-23 12:24pm

Uh... because Kerrigan infested him?

There's absolutely no reason for her to believe that a human could have a will of their own after being infested. But he isn't human, now is he?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2008-03-23 12:27pm

How do we know the psi disruptor ever worked? Just because its name says "disruptor" that doesn't mean it disrupts the chain of command. As far as I recall we only ever saw the psi disruptor work from the perspective of the humans.

For all we know it's just a big "lots of psi energy is here" beacon, a decoy. And the cerebrates and Overmind deliberately went along with it. There was a psi disruptor on Tarsonis, and the Zerg hordes descended. Big deal. That doesn't mean they were out of control.

Now that Kerrigan's in charge, it's possible if another psi disruptor shows up she'd snort and order her forces not to engage, knowing it was a trap.

The anti-Zerg temple is a one shot deal, like Antartica from Stargate SG:1. The Protoss can't count on it to protect them, and the only reason they aren't annihilated is Kerrigan doesn't think it's worth it and has bigger fish to fry in the Xel'Naga. Kerrigan could have killed Raynor and Tassadar any time she wanted.

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2008-03-23 12:43pm

brianeyci wrote:How do we know the psi disruptor ever worked? Just because its name says "disruptor" that doesn't mean it disrupts the chain of command. As far as I recall we only ever saw the psi disruptor work from the perspective of the humans.

We saw the Psi Disruptor work from the perspective of Kerrigan, at the beginning of the final campaign, when the zerg on Tarsonis under Kerrigan's control went wild due to the signal, and later she complained that she was having more and more trouble keeping what little forces she had in line. Note that at that point the Disruptor was on another planet far away.

For all we know it's just a big "lots of psi energy is here" beacon, a decoy. And the cerebrates and Overmind deliberately went along with it. There was a psi disruptor on Tarsonis, and the Zerg hordes descended. Big deal. That doesn't mean they were out of control.

So what you're saying is that the Overmind "went along" with UED forces slicing through its defenses due to discoordination, destroying its defenders and enslaving it?

Now that Kerrigan's in charge, it's possible if another psi disruptor shows up she'd snort and order her forces not to engage, knowing it was a trap.

I think you may be confusing the Psi Disruptor with the Psi Emitters, or the events that occurred in the original with the events that occurred in the expansion.

The anti-Zerg temple is a one shot deal, like Antartica from Stargate SG:1. The Protoss can't count on it to protect them, and the only reason they aren't annihilated is Kerrigan doesn't think it's worth it and has bigger fish to fry in the Xel'Naga. Kerrigan could have killed Raynor and Tassadar any time she wanted.

Explain why you think the anti-Zerg effect can't be used again.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2008-03-23 12:54pm

Morilore wrote:I think you may be confusing the Psi Disruptor with the Psi Emitters, or the events that occurred in the original with the events that occurred in the expansion.

You're probably right.

It's still a MacGuffin, which means it was created for the purposes of a specific plot point, so unless they need whatever happened then to happen again, it won't show up in SC2.

The anti-Zerg temple is a one shot deal, like Antartica from Stargate SG:1. The Protoss can't count on it to protect them, and the only reason they aren't annihilated is Kerrigan doesn't think it's worth it and has bigger fish to fry in the Xel'Naga. Kerrigan could have killed Raynor and Tassadar any time she wanted.
Explain why you think the anti-Zerg effect can't be used again.

Why don't you prove that the anti-Zerg effect can be used again? Didn't they have to find two special crystals to power it? Besides, even if it can, all Kerrigan has to do is stay in orbit and destroy it. There's no particular reason to believe its especially hardy, and even if Artanis and the Dark Templar put every single defense they've got around it Kerrigan would quickly gain space superiority and destroy the temple. The Protoss don't seem to have any kind of point-defense to shoot down incoming missiles, nor shields powerful enough to stop orbital bombardment (or they would've used it on Aiur their most heavily defended world.)

Plus, using it again is fucking lame. It had better not show up, or if it does the Xel'Naga had better be in control, not the Protoss.

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2008-03-23 01:31pm

Why don't you prove that the anti-Zerg effect can be used again? Didn't they have to find two special crystals to power it?

Was there any evidence the crystals were consumed by the process? I'll grant that there's no real evidence about the limitations of this effect either way, but why would you authoritatively say "it's a one-shot deal?"

Besides, even if it can, all Kerrigan has to do is stay in orbit and destroy it.

That I'll grant.

Plus, using it again is fucking lame. It had better not show up, or if it does the Xel'Naga had better be in control, not the Protoss.

Is the whole reason you're arguing this point that you think it would be "lame" if the temple were used again?

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-03-23 01:41pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Uh... because Kerrigan infested him?

There's absolutely no reason for her to believe that a human could have a will of their own after being infested. But he isn't human, now is he?

True.

Besides, even if it can, all Kerrigan has to do is stay in orbit and destroy it.

I don't remember the Zerg being capable of orbital bombardment. But i guess it is possible.

Plus, using it again is fucking lame. It had better not show up, or if it does the Xel'Naga had better be in control, not the Protoss.

I agree using it again would be lame but i don't think that's a valid in universe reason for them not to use it.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-03-23 02:07pm

This leads me to wonder what the hell Kerrigan is up to. She has to know that if the Dominion gets a Disruptor up and running, she's just flat out fucked over. The only real solution is to reduce Terran civilization (at least in their sector) to rubble so that they won't have the technology or infrastructure to build a new one - but she obviously hasn't so why hasn't a new disruptor been constructed?

She may have found a way around it. The new unit distribution can suggest that, with the Queen unit and all.

A thought about Duran; If he was infested by the Zerg(Kerrigan), considering he worked for her, how is it that he is working for the Xal'naga? Why would Kerrigan trust him so much? How the hell did he manage to infiltrate the Zerg and gain Kerrigan's trust?

Xel'Naga toys? Perhaps he is part cyborg or something that makes him partially immune to infestation.

Not a very likely, but alternative explanation is that he was recruited after his infestation.

I agree using it again would be lame but i don't think that's a valid in universe reason for them not to use it.

Personally, I think they might use it again. It's just that its not much use outside the planet. Kerrigian merely blocks out any outgoing traffic. If she wanted to.

avatarxprime · Post by **avatarxprime** » 2008-03-23 07:05pm

DarthShady wrote:
avatarxprime wrote:As far as the UED are concerned, she thinks they are wiped out and won't be a threat anymore.
Only the UED expeditionary fleet was wiped out. I have a feeling they might come back in force in SC2.

I'm talking about from Kerrigan's perspective. As far as she knows the UED fleet was destroyed and they were unable to send a message back to Earth. I do hope that the UED make a come back and bring some toys of their own instead of simply using Terran tech.

DarthShady wrote:
avatarxprime wrote:For the Protoss, they are in a disarray and with the loss of Aiur they have lost their largest manufacturing base. Considering the speed at which the Zerg can reproduce, she should have time to eliminate them following preparing for the Xel'Naga. Also, she knows they are hesitant to attack her after she managed to dominate the Matriarch.
I don't think Kerrigan will have an easy way to defeat the Protoss considering they are on Shakuras and they have that anti-zerg temple. Not to mention all those new toys they are digging up.

Well Shakuras itself is a threat, but Kerrigan would not know about the Protoss digging up "new" war toys. Again, I'm focusing on Kerrigan's most probable viewpoint. Everything the Zerg and Terrans knew/know said that Aiur was it for the Protoss. Them lossing it effectively cripples their ability to wage war until they can establish a new homeworld on par with it. This is something that should take several years at least so Kerrigan would think "I have time," while she worries about the Xel'Naga.

DarthShady wrote:A thought about Duran; If he was infested by the Zerg(Kerrigan), considering he worked for her, how is it that he is working for the Xal'naga? Why would Kerrigan trust him so much? How the hell did he manage to infiltrate the Zerg and gain Kerrigan's trust?

As others have pointed out, Duran never worked for Kerrigan. He started as an agent for the Xel'Naga and worked for the UED and then Kerrigan to further the Xel'Naga agenda. As far as infestation not working on him, the Xel'Naga did create the Zerg, I'm sure they've figured out a way to counter infestation.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-03-24 02:39am

Also where did the UED find the time to assemble their fleet and send it to the Koprulu sector? The original colony ships are stated to have taken about 38 years to reach there, and Starcraft's story seems to span at most under two years. If the UED ships had fancy new super fast warp drives, you'd think someone would have sent a ship back to Earth to say "holy shit send more ships!".

The guidebooklet also says that the computer controlling the ships malfunctioned, lost their co-ordinates, and wandered all the fuck over the place in Warp for nearly 30 years, before it brought them to the Koprulu Sector. The journey may be much faster if you actually know where you are going (which is probably also the reason why the UED was afraid of a Zerg attack).

As others have pointed out, Duran never worked for Kerrigan. He started as an agent for the Xel'Naga and worked for the UED and then Kerrigan to further the Xel'Naga agenda. As far as infestation not working on him, the Xel'Naga did create the Zerg, I'm sure they've figured out a way to counter infestation.

Not to mention that we have no idea how long Duran has been working on this "case". The Zerg were around for a while before they came upon Koprulu; the guide booklet mentions that they basically assimilated or destroyed every life they came across in their spread towards Aiur from Zerus (which is supposed to be near the Galactic Core).